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Old
12-07-2012, 03:00 PM
  #901
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Bring in replacement players. I can't cheer for these idiots anymore.

I'll support the Habs for the logo and support players who want to play because they love hockey.

Plus it'll dismantle the NHLPA in a heartbeat. Most guys would jump ship and play. They are about as intelligent as a heard of sheep.

That press conference was the most pathetic thing I have ever seen other than a garbage reality show on television. It was absolutely sad to watch. Embarrassing is not even strong enough of a word.

Never thought I'd say this, but I would support replacement players now. It wouldn't be as good hockey, but at least it would be hockey.
Agreed.


Quote:
posted by Jeffrey: I wouldn't pay 120+$ to watch LNAH type of players...
The owners realize this and would reduce ticket costs, at first. However, in a few short seasons we will have a new Crosby, a new Price, a new Ovechkin playing for our beloved Habs, Pens, Caps, etc...and ticket prices will surely go back up. How do we know? Look at what is going on leading up to this season. Players come and go every year. Franchises are far more long lasting, overall. 85% of the Habs' roster is changed from the centennial season to today, but ticket prices are higher now than then and Habs' fans are still rabid about their team even after one of the worst seasons in our entire history.

So, no, I won't pay $120 right now to watch replacement players. 4 years from now? We will see.

Of course, ticket prices would be able to be reduced with replacement players because we probably won't have the same kind of salaries being handed out at first, anyways. As the replacement players prove their worth, the cream of the crop will start commanding higher slaries, and we will see things return to what passes for normal in sports.

In any case, I am willing to watch replacement players.

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12-07-2012, 03:03 PM
  #902
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[QUOTE=Drydenwasthebest;56346471]Agreed.




The owners realize this and would reduce ticket costs, at first. However, in a few short seasons we will have a new Crosby, a new Price, a new Ovechkin playing for our beloved Habs, Pens, Caps, etc...and ticket prices will surely go back up. How do we know? Look at what is going on leading up to this season. Players come and go every year. Franchises are far more long lasting, overall. 85% of the Habs' roster is changed from the centennial season to today, but ticket prices are higher now than then and Habs' fans are still rabid about their team even after one of the worst seasons in our entire history.

So, no, I won't pay $120 right now to watch replacement players. 4 years from now? We will see.

Of course, ticket prices would be able to be reduced with replacement players because we probably won't have the same kind of salaries being handed out at first, anyways. As the replacement players prove their worth, the cream of the crop will start commanding higher slaries, and we will see things return to what passes for normal in sports.

In any case, I am willing to watch replacement players.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry, but replacement players doesn't cut it. Better go watch some Junior hockey or AHL hockey. I don't want any minor league scrubs to wear a NHL uniform. + No broadcasters or serious sponsors will put money in that farce.

Common sense will prevail down the road. Be patient.

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12-07-2012, 03:07 PM
  #903
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From tsn.ca:
"The players indicated that the small group dynamic was over, that Don Fehr was coming back in. He (Hainsey) says the owners told them that could be a deal breaker. NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly clarified the league's position via e-mail to TSN, saying "totally within their rights to do, but response of our owners was "if that's the case, don't expect us to stay involved."

Lets get this straight. You have 6 billionaire owners at the table with 18 uneducated players. When the players want to get their lead negotiator back in the room, the person who is actually qualified to negotiate billion dollar contacts the owners run away and blame the players.

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12-07-2012, 03:12 PM
  #904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipp18 View Post
From tsn.ca:
"The players indicated that the small group dynamic was over, that Don Fehr was coming back in. He (Hainsey) says the owners told them that could be a deal breaker. NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly clarified the league's position via e-mail to TSN, saying "totally within their rights to do, but response of our owners was "if that's the case, don't expect us to stay involved."

Lets get this straight. You have 6 billionaire owners at the table with 18 uneducated players. When the players want to get their lead negotiator back in the room, the person who is actually qualified to negotiate billion dollar contacts the owners run away and blame the players.
It sounds like it is just being spun too much. Of course at some point the leaders come back in. Whenever that point is, of course the players/owners meeting dynamic is over, just as Daly said.

But if the players' counterproposal coming out from that process did not include the balancing concessions that they were talking about with the owners, then also of course the proposal would be rejected. Sounds like some of the things were taken out of context from the meetings, basically.

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12-07-2012, 03:17 PM
  #905
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Honestly, reading some of this nonsense about replacement players makes me think that some of you think that this sort of situation:



is a likely continuation of the labour dispute.

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:18 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
I am sorry, but replacement players doesn't cut it. Better go watch some Junior hockey or AHL hockey. I don't want any minor league scrubs to wear a NHL uniform. + No broadcasters or serious sponsors will put money in that farce.

Common sense will prevail down the road. Be patient.
No offence meant, but every team in this league has plenty of "junior" or "AHL" level players or worse on their teams already. There are definitely guys in the minors who are better right now than Komisarek, Gionta, DiPietro, etc... Plenty of "scrubs" wear NHL uniforms and get replaced by rookies on a regular basis. The main problem with minor league scrubs currently on NHL teams is that they have contracts that keep them there. I have to tell you, we change players so often that most people don't even realize how quickly rosters can change. Like I stated earlier, 85% of our beloved Habs are different from a mere 4 years ago! I would much rather watch a minor leaguer like Galchenyuk or Beaulieu than some "Pro" like Gomez or Campoli.

I want the NHL and NHLPA to come to a deal, but Fehr is not going to allow that to happen unless it is a clear "win" for the players because he needs to keep his reputation and ego shiny and new. The owners' last offer wasn't even brought to the union as a whole to vote on. I wonder why? That certainly wasn't the owners' fault. Fehr is going to try and "win" this battle. He won't, though. All he will do is ruin some guys' careers, stop hockey from being played, and damage what was a growing sport. The players were foolish to bring him in and it will cost them big time if they do not do something to stop him from screwing the majority of them in favour of the superstars and his ego. Hopefully, there are enough Hamrlik's and Neuvirth's around to step up and demand a change in leadership so that something positive can occur sooner than later.

If not? Bring on the replacement players!!

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12-07-2012, 03:19 PM
  #907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipp18 View Post
From tsn.ca:
"The players indicated that the small group dynamic was over, that Don Fehr was coming back in. He (Hainsey) says the owners told them that could be a deal breaker. NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly clarified the league's position via e-mail to TSN, saying "totally within their rights to do, but response of our owners was "if that's the case, don't expect us to stay involved."

Lets get this straight. You have 6 billionaire owners at the table with 18 uneducated players. When the players want to get their lead negotiator back in the room, the person who is actually qualified to negotiate billion dollar contacts the owners run away and blame the players.
It's frustrating when the owners are negociating with Fehr's puppets, which is what the players are. At this point, I'm not even sure they know what they want, but they go with whatever Fehr tells them they can go for.

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12-07-2012, 03:21 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Myron Gaines View Post
It's frustrating when the owners are negociating with Fehr's puppets, which is what the players are. At this point, I'm not even sure they know what they want, but they go with whatever Fehr tells them they can go for.
What could you possibly mean by such a statement?

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12-07-2012, 03:25 PM
  #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipp18 View Post
From tsn.ca:
"The players indicated that the small group dynamic was over, that Don Fehr was coming back in. He (Hainsey) says the owners told them that could be a deal breaker. NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly clarified the league's position via e-mail to TSN, saying "totally within their rights to do, but response of our owners was "if that's the case, don't expect us to stay involved."
Well, I guess they figured it worked last time so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipp18 View Post
Lets get this straight. You have 6 billionaire owners at the table with 18 uneducated players. When the players want to get their lead negotiator back in the room, the person who is actually qualified to negotiate billion dollar contacts the owners run away and blame the players.
Yup, trying to get the players to turn on their own negotiator is obviously the tactic they're going with. And it just might work.

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12-07-2012, 03:38 PM
  #910
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yup, trying to get the players to turn on their own negotiator is obviously the tactic they're going with. And it just might work.
It seems to have worked with the dunderheaded mouth breathers forming popular opinion on this board.

I love how people bring up the fact that the players are uneducated in an effort to disqualify the players' opinions on the negotiations. As if they're just supposed to say "yessir massa boss sir, you has some might fancy law book learnin' that I don't understand. Please tell me where I can mark my X." The fact of the matter is, the players probably have a much clearer understanding of the issues than most of the fans saying this ****, being that they were actually there to hear what was actually said, instead of gobbling up Bettman and Daly's account like pigeons on stale bread.

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12-07-2012, 03:39 PM
  #911
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The warning bells could be heard miles away the day the PA hired Fehr.

All you have to do is look at the amount of labour stoppages that Bettman and Fehr have under their belts. Bettman is in his 3rd stoppage, while Fehr is in his 6th stoppage in 8 total bargaining sessions.

If anything, their history has proven that they are capable of keeping their clients on a leash, and that they are more than capable of killing seasons.

I was surprised that more wasn't made out of the Fehr hiring at the time. I was thinking about a potential labour dispute the moment the PA decided to hire him.

Its unfortunate for the fans, but as much as we may wanted to brush it off, the possibility of a stoppage was all too real the moment Fehr was hired.

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12-07-2012, 03:42 PM
  #912
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What could you possibly mean by such a statement?
That it's obvious to me that Fehr is calling the shots, not the players. Which is sad, 'cause he wont settle until the deal fully advantages the players. The NHLPA is not looking for a fair deal, it's total bullcrap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
It seems to have worked with the dunderheaded mouth breathers forming popular opinion on this board.

I love how people bring up the fact that the players are uneducated in an effort to disqualify the players' opinions on the negotiations. As if they're just supposed to say "yessir massa boss sir, you has some might fancy law book learnin' that I don't understand. Please tell me where I can mark my X." The fact of the matter is, the players probably have a much clearer understanding of the issues than most of the fans saying this ****, being that they were actually there to hear what was actually said, instead of gobbling up Bettman and Daly's account like pigeons on stale bread.
And here we go.

Seriously the fact that you disqualify people's opinion on a forum doesn't make you any better than a dunderheaded mouth breather without an opinion.

You can't even make up your own opinion on what's going on, so you think it makes you better than everyone here?


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12-07-2012, 03:51 PM
  #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
It seems to have worked with the dunderheaded mouth breathers forming popular opinion on this board.

I love how people bring up the fact that the players are uneducated in an effort to disqualify the players' opinions on the negotiations. As if they're just supposed to say "yessir massa boss sir, you has some might fancy law book learnin' that I don't understand. Please tell me where I can mark my X." The fact of the matter is, the players probably have a much clearer understanding of the issues than most of the fans saying this ****, being that they were actually there to hear what was actually said, instead of gobbling up Bettman and Daly's account like pigeons on stale bread.
Yes, their Twitter posts and comments just ooze intelligence, knowledge and particularly social perspective. Hint, if someone calls you as smart as a hockey player, they're not giving you a compliment. And yes, there are exceptions to the rule.

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12-07-2012, 03:52 PM
  #914
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Union leaders have to stir up unnecessary trouble in order to justify their existence. We aren't talking about capitalists hiring and abusing 13 year olds nowadays.

The Habs are far away from being a contender in the near future so missing one year is really not a big deal. I will chuckle when Fehr single-handedly ends the career of his 250 brainwashed puppets though.

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12-07-2012, 03:56 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by Myron Gaines View Post
That it's obvious to me that Fehr is calling the shots, not the players. Which is sad, 'cause he wont settle until the deal fully advantages the players. The NHLPA is not looking for a fair deal, it's total bullcrap.
This is just an absurd synopsis of what happened yesterday.

From the beginning, you have to admit that the NHL owners will only be receiving in this CBA. There isn't a single concession they are making relative to last season, only to what their original proposal was(which was basically insulting). Here's what happened: The NHL went halfway on make-whole, but said that the players have to agree to 3 things. The players said thanks for moving on the make-whole, and then offered a counter proposal which moved closer to the NHL's position on player contracts. What was the NHL's reaction? That's right. They revoked every offer they had made that week, and called an end to further negotiations. Now you tell me who was being unreasonable.

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12-07-2012, 04:01 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Yes, their Twitter posts and comments just ooze intelligence, knowledge and particularly social perspective. Hint, if someone calls you as smart as a hockey player, they're not giving you a compliment. And yes, there are exceptions to the rule.
I never said they were intelligent on the aggregate in an absolute sense, only more well informed than the average hockey fan. Which is true, as many fans aren't setting the bar very high, particularly on the owner's side of the aisle.

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12-07-2012, 04:03 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Agreed.




The owners realize this and would reduce ticket costs, at first. However, in a few short seasons we will have a new Crosby, a new Price, a new Ovechkin playing for our beloved Habs, Pens, Caps, etc...and ticket prices will surely go back up. How do we know? Look at what is going on leading up to this season. Players come and go every year. Franchises are far more long lasting, overall. 85% of the Habs' roster is changed from the centennial season to today, but ticket prices are higher now than then and Habs' fans are still rabid about their team even after one of the worst seasons in our entire history.

So, no, I won't pay $120 right now to watch replacement players. 4 years from now? We will see.

Of course, ticket prices would be able to be reduced with replacement players because we probably won't have the same kind of salaries being handed out at first, anyways. As the replacement players prove their worth, the cream of the crop will start commanding higher slaries, and we will see things return to what passes for normal in sports.

In any case, I am willing to watch replacement players.

we will see ? really ? wow the actual players will get the message, huh ?

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12-07-2012, 04:08 PM
  #918
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I still can't believe what happened last night. So sad...

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12-07-2012, 04:18 PM
  #919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
No offence meant, but every team in this league has plenty of "junior" or "AHL" level players or worse on their teams already. There are definitely guys in the minors who are better right now than Komisarek, Gionta, DiPietro, etc... Plenty of "scrubs" wear NHL uniforms and get replaced by rookies on a regular basis. The main problem with minor league scrubs currently on NHL teams is that they have contracts that keep them there. I have to tell you, we change players so often that most people don't even realize how quickly rosters can change. Like I stated earlier, 85% of our beloved Habs are different from a mere 4 years ago! I would much rather watch a minor leaguer like Galchenyuk or Beaulieu than some "Pro" like Gomez or Campoli.

I want the NHL and NHLPA to come to a deal, but Fehr is not going to allow that to happen unless it is a clear "win" for the players because he needs to keep his reputation and ego shiny and new. The owners' last offer wasn't even brought to the union as a whole to vote on. I wonder why? That certainly wasn't the owners' fault. Fehr is going to try and "win" this battle. He won't, though. All he will do is ruin some guys' careers, stop hockey from being played, and damage what was a growing sport. The players were foolish to bring him in and it will cost them big time if they do not do something to stop him from screwing the majority of them in favour of the superstars and his ego. Hopefully, there are enough Hamrlik's and Neuvirth's around to step up and demand a change in leadership so that something positive can occur sooner than later.

If not? Bring on the replacement players!!
same could be said about the Owner side. Molson is losing Millions as we speak, so is the TML owner, NYR owner, Flyers owners and a few others...

and while these teams will recover (will take a while though), some may "die" from this lockout, I remember seeing a lot of empty seats last time I watched the Habs play in CLB, TB, PHX, FLO...

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12-07-2012, 04:45 PM
  #920
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I still can't believe what happened last night. So sad...
The owners acted like the petulant, selfish, evil jerks they've always been?

Jacobs extended a bunch of his players only to want them to take massive paycuts afterwards when the ink was dry. If that doesn't summarize the NHL's greasy behaviour in a nutshell I dunno what does.

The players went to consult their council and then they're told that the offer's off the table. And then Bob Mac goes on air/twitter and says "the owners are deeply disappointed". Christ, this is so transparent! It peeves me off!!! Same this happened with the first "50/50" offer which was, in fact, not at all a 50/50 offer. TSN got it and ran with it and public opinion aka the mouthbreathers went ape and started clamoring that the NHLPA are being selfish and greedy. Then it was revealed that the 50/50 offer was completely full of lies. Bob Mack, and Darren Dreger are suckling on the NHL's teat just like they've always been. Like with every suspension, like with the Chara hit, like with EVERYTHING.

This is a lockout not a player strike. The league's had record revenues, the owners get public (tax-payer) funding for a lot of their arenas and a massive amount of collateral, there is literally no team that is costing its owner more money than it is making (save, maybe, Phoenix though it's very complicated)... The players have every right to be furious.

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12-07-2012, 04:49 PM
  #921
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Ummmm..... no! The expansion, the accompanying televison rights and other associated revenues are exactly what has allowed the league to employ more players and pay them ever increasing salaries.

The average salary has grown by almost 50% since the last lockout and while the last CBA was an improvement over what existed before, it still needed improvement. For the life of me I can't understand why the NHLPA is taking a position that jeopardizes the future of the industry in which they work. And they do it under the guise of fighting for the next generation of players. That is completely laughable.
It's impossible to have 30 of 30 teams be profitable.

Are you not following this at all? Since the last lockouts owners have improved training facilities, medical staff, drafting, scouting, etc. They do this because they want to win, and the only way to win is to invest more money.

There is no value of the salary cap that will allow permanently high profits. Do you expect the players to play for free? At that point the head scouts would rake in salaries of 30 to 40 million a year?

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The average salary has grown by almost 50% since the last lockout
And league revenues have risen 80%.

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The Habs' players (those who can't shut up) have been an embarrassment. They have top notch facilities and seemingly don't understand how.
They have top notch facilities because the fans spend a lot of money. That's why you don't see the same facilities in ECHL teams.

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The issue remains that these players are paid in line with the other 3 major sports, and league revenues don't support that.
A complete fabrication on your part. This is like the time you claimed to speak on behalf of "most independent economists".


Last edited by DAChampion: 12-07-2012 at 04:56 PM.
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12-07-2012, 04:55 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
This is just an absurd synopsis of what happened yesterday.

From the beginning, you have to admit that the NHL owners will only be receiving in this CBA. There isn't a single concession they are making relative to last season, only to what their original proposal was(which was basically insulting). Here's what happened: The NHL went halfway on make-whole, but said that the players have to agree to 3 things. The players said thanks for moving on the make-whole, and then offered a counter proposal which moved closer to the NHL's position on player contracts. What was the NHL's reaction? That's right. They revoked every offer they had made that week, and called an end to further negotiations. Now you tell me who was being unreasonable.

The guaranteed 300M$ was put on the table on 3 conditions. What happened? The players took those conditions and tilted it to their side again. The agreement on those three conditions was there on wednesday, so I just don't get why you or any player is calling the NHL unreasonable. The fact that the players said a couple of weeks ago that the key issue was the transition amount and now that the NHL comes halfway with it, and Fehr publicly says that monetary issues are pretty much settled, tries to bargain yet again on the three issues that the NHL presented as key. And it's funny, because a bunch of players weren't even informed of the last offer and there wasn't even a vote between them, 'cause Fehr probably told those in NY that they could get more.

The last offer presented by the NHLPA was them trying to pull the rubber a bit further and it hit them straight in the face. And now, it's funny that a bunch of players are completely oblivious of that and lash back at Gary Bettman when they knew that the deal was made based on those three conditions.

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12-07-2012, 05:00 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
Union leaders have to stir up unnecessary trouble in order to justify their existence. We aren't talking about capitalists hiring and abusing 13 year olds nowadays.

The Habs are far away from being a contender in the near future so missing one year is really not a big deal. I will chuckle when Fehr single-handedly ends the career of his 250 brainwashed puppets though.
Losing this season is a disaster for the Habs. We were in desperate need of a rebuiilding / tanking / transition / development / evaluation year.

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12-07-2012, 05:03 PM
  #924
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Losing this season is a disaster for the Habs. We were in desperate need of a rebuiilding / tanking / transition / development / evaluation year.
At least our best youngsters are playing hockey instead of sitting in the press box eating nachos.

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12-07-2012, 05:05 PM
  #925
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The guaranteed 300M$ was put on the table on 3 conditions. What happened? The players took those conditions and tilted it to their side again. The agreement on those three conditions was there on wednesday, so I just don't get why you or any player is calling the NHL unreasonable. The fact that the players said a couple of weeks ago that the key issue was the transition amount and now that the NHL comes halfway with it, and Fehr publicly says that monetary issues are pretty much settled, tries to bargain yet again on the three issues that the NHL presented as key. And it's funny, because a bunch of players weren't even informed of the last offer and there wasn't even a vote between them, 'cause Fehr probably told those in NY that they could get more.

The last offer presented by the NHLPA was them trying to pull the rubber a bit further and it hit them straight in the face. And now, it's funny that a bunch of players are completely oblivious of that and lash back at Gary Bettman when they knew that the deal was made based on those three conditions.
The 300 million isn't a concession, as they're taking 400 million by reducing the value of existing contracts. The difference is a 100 million money grab by the owners.

You do know that 300 million is less than 400 million right?

Some of you are really bad at math ... and you insult the players' intelligence ...

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