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Wild future vs. Oilers future

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Old
12-07-2012, 08:28 PM
  #226
JamesRanger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Goaltending is easy. Look how well Theo did Florida, Vokoun in Florida, Anderson in Colorado, Nabby in Long Island
You are describing best case scenarios across the whole league.

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12-07-2012, 08:28 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by JamesRanger View Post
Can you also easily fill your blue line and goalie position? And will those 3rd and 4th liners be any good?
I wouldn't be shocked to see players like Travis Ewanyk, Magnus Pajarrvi, Anton Lander, and Tyler Pitlick on the third and fourth lines, along with a fighter or two. (Abney?)

For Defense, Edmonton has Schultz, Smid, Petry. Need a banger? Teubert, Bigos, Musil?
Need a puck mover? Laleggia, Gernat, or Simpson. Need a little of both? Kefbom, Marincin.

Given that goalies develop by sundial, I wouldn't draft them. That said, WHL goalie of the year last year was Tyler Bunz. Oliver Roy (drafted 2009) has played well in OKC this season behind Danis. They seem to have those, as well.

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12-07-2012, 08:34 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesRanger View Post
Well you could argue the Oilers gave up Brodziak for a 4th and 5th which is an indication of their talent evaluation.
They got rid of Penner when he was playing pretty good and got a 1st round pick (Klefbom) and he went on to get 17 points the next season. So theres always two different sets of examples.

Plus.... Cam Barker for Leddy.......

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12-07-2012, 08:39 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victor View Post
I wouldn't be shocked to see players like Travis Ewanyk, Magnus Pajarrvi, Anton Lander, and Tyler Pitlick on the third and fourth lines, along with a fighter or two. (Abney?)

For Defense, Edmonton has Schultz, Smid, Petry. Need a banger? Teubert, Bigos, Musil?
Need a puck mover? Laleggia, Gernat, or Simpson. Need a little of both? Kefbom, Marincin.

Given that goalies develop by sundial, I wouldn't draft them. That said, WHL goalie of the year last year was Tyler Bunz. Oliver Roy (drafted 2009) has played well in OKC this season behind Danis. They seem to have those, as well.
I think you are being overly optimistic in this regard. Both players have struggled immensely (at least statistically..) to this point in the season.

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12-07-2012, 08:44 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
They got rid of Penner when he was playing pretty good and got a 1st round pick (Klefbom) and he went on to get 17 points the next season. So theres always two different sets of examples.

Plus.... Cam Barker for Leddy.......
Never happened. Don't know what you're talking about.

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12-07-2012, 09:06 PM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
I agree, it doesn't mean anything (especially considering the fact that it takes three years+ to develop a player)... But making false statements to "prove" your point is just as bad.
Khaira and Laleggia from the last draft are looking like really good picks.
Then there's Klefbom, Musil, Rieder and Gernat from 2011 that stand out. Marincin and Bunz in the 2010 draft, and a few in 2009 that are looking decent.

It's only a matter of time before some of these make noise in the NHL.
What the? What false points do I make to "prove" a point?

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12-07-2012, 09:17 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesRanger View Post
You are describing best case scenarios across the whole league.
Look around the league. I bet at least half the starting goalies arent original draft picks

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12-07-2012, 09:26 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Look around the league. I bet at least half the starting goalies arent original draft picks
And all of those are above average goalies? I don't know if you are trying to prove my point or disprove it?

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12-07-2012, 09:29 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesRanger View Post
And all of those are above average goalies? I don't know if you are trying to prove my point or disprove it?
Many of them are. Smith, Lehtonen, Backstrom. Goalies aren't overly difficult to find.

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12-07-2012, 09:31 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesRanger View Post
And all of those are above average goalies? I don't know if you are trying to prove my point or disprove it?
above average who werent original draft picks.....

Luongo
Smith
Lehtonen
Halak
Nabakov
Theodore
Niemi
Rask
Varlomov
Kiprusoff

Plenty of examples

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12-07-2012, 09:33 PM
  #236
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At any point in the foreseeable future, the Wild have a better roster than the Oilers imo. Wild are gonna be a very dangerous team in very short order.

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12-07-2012, 10:23 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by President Van Buren View Post
What the? What false points do I make to "prove" a point?
Oh c'mon man! It couldn't be any more obvious...
Basically claiming Schultz was drafted by the Oilers (or using him to justify the Oilers' drafting prowess, which is completely pointless), basically saying Petry and Hartikainen were drafted in the past 4 drafts... What do you think?

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12-07-2012, 10:29 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
Oh c'mon man! It couldn't be any more obvious...
Basically claiming Schultz was drafted by the Oilers (or using him to justify the Oilers' drafting prowess, which is completely pointless), basically saying Petry and Hartikainen were drafted in the past 4 drafts... What do you think?
Schultz was in reference to this portion of the statement.

Quote:
Its easy to build a team when you take consensus #1 picks every year.
The other two...I never said they were drafted in the last 4 years. Pretty simple stuff.

The full comment.

Quote:
This is a point many people miss. Its easy to build a team when you take consensus #1 picks every year. How will they draft once they don't have that crutch?

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12-07-2012, 10:30 PM
  #239
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I'm going with the Wild. As good as they can be in the future, superstar talent might get cups in NBA but the NHL is a different league.

If and when the Oilers win a Cup with their young talent...I can assure you none of their current defenseman except maybe Smid will be a part of it. That D needs to be a lot better, their system needs to be better because offense doesn't win you Cups even if you have Sid and Malkin. Oilers need to realize what Pittsburgh has realized and start drafting D every chance they get.

Goaltending..I honestly think Dubynk doesn't need to be much better than average if the D is good and he's definitely the future unless he screws up big in the playoffs when they get there.

Wild are becoming a more attractive location for players wanting win now rather than later. I personally can't wait for this division to finally become a good one. Vancouver can no longer just win the division the day the season starts

Overall...Wild = built now and for the future (If Granlund, Coyle, Dumba develop properly) and Oilers are built for the future.

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12-07-2012, 10:38 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by President Van Buren View Post
Schultz was in reference to this.



The other two...I never said they were drafted in the last 4 years. Pretty simple stuff.

The full comment.
Then what the hell was the point of mentioning those two in response to this comment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesRanger View Post
Eberle was a good pick. So him and maybe Klefblom in the last 4 years. I was talking about drafting so what does Shultze have to do with it? Plan on a lot of other teams prospects jumping ship to the Oilers?
And you could have written out your response to the other comment a lot better than just saying:
Quote:
Originally Posted by President Van Buren View Post
...Jordan Eberle? Justin Schultz?
It just doesn't relate at all.

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12-07-2012, 10:47 PM
  #241
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Hard to project a player, much less an entire team years out, in a league with as many variables at play.

Today, Minny has a better team than Edmonton. Minny is also flirting with the top of the cap (#2 according to capgeek.) in a year where the cap is expected to be rolled back. I know that a number of their players are UFA's in the next couple of years, but they've committed big dollars to Zach Parise, Ryan Suter, and Mikko Koivu. Edmonton is middle of the pack, but has Eberle and Hall committed long term.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the cap. Personally, I'd rather be in Edmonton's shoes than Minny right now.

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12-07-2012, 10:47 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yourface View Post
Then what the hell was the point of mentioning those two in response to this comment?


And you could have written out your response to the other comment a lot better than just saying:


It just doesn't relate at all.
Uh...I didn't mention those two in response to the comment you listed after.

I listed the other prospects in response to that comment. I ignored the "four year" arbitrary aspect to it on purpose, because it was a pointless deadline to be included.

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12-07-2012, 10:55 PM
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by President Van Buren View Post
Uh...I didn't mention those two in response to the comment you listed after.

I listed the other prospects in response to that comment. I ignored the "four year" arbitrary aspect to it on purpose, because it was a pointless deadline to be included.
Well, next time word out some sentences because you're only looking for trouble otherwise.

And to the bolded, yes you did. Just check the previous page, it's all there!


Last edited by franfrey*: 12-07-2012 at 11:02 PM.
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12-08-2012, 12:23 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Plus.... Cam Barker for Leddy.......
Since Fletcher came on board these have been his trades:

1st Round (16th) (Nick Leddy), 3rd Round (77th) (Matt Hackett), 7th Round (181st) (Calvin de Haan) for 1st round (12th) (Calvin de Haan). Good trade for both teams.

6th Round (160th) (Darcy Kuemper), rights to Kyle Brodziak for 4th Round (99th) (KYle Bigos) and 5th round (132nd) (Olivier Roy). Good trade for both teams.

Craig Weller, 2nd Round (40th overall) (Alexander Khoklachev) and rights to Alexander Fallstrom for Chuck Kobasew. Terrible trade for Minnesota.

Benoit Pouliot for Guillaume Latendresse. Excellent trade for both teams.

Kim Johnsson and Nick Leddy for Cam Barker. Terrible trade for Minnesota

2nd Round (56th) (Johan Larsson) for Eric Belanger. Excellent trade for Minnesota.

5th Round (129th) (Freddie Hamilton) for Brad Staubitz. Bad trade for Minnesota.

2nd Round (59th) (Jason Zucker for 3rd Round (69th) (Joe Basaraba) and 4th Round (99th) (Joonas Donskoi). Excellent trade for Minnesota.

Anton Khudobin for Jeff Penner and rights to Mikko Lehtonen. Meh.

Petr Kalus for future considerations. Meh.

David McIntyre for Maxim Noreau. Good trade for Minnesota as Noreau did more for them than McIntyre ever did.

Brent Burns and 2nd Round (traded for Dominic Moore) for Charlie Coyle, Devin Setoguchi and 1st Round (28th) (Zach Phillips). Excellent trade for Minnesota and San Jose

2nd Round (60th) (Mario Lucia) for 3rd Round (70th) (David Honzik) and 4th Round (100th) (Joseph Labate). Too early too tell. Lucia has looked good and Honzik and Labate are pretty young.

Daroll Powe for 2013 3rd Round Pick. Good trade for both teams.

Marin Havlat for Dany Heatley. Both teams did well on this trade.

2013 3rd Round Pick for James Sheppard. Excellent trade for Minnesota. Sheppard was worth nothing.

Nystrom for Futures. Meh.

Erik Christensen and a 2013 7th Round Pick for Casey Wellman. Meh. Wellman was free.

Marek Zidlicky for Kuris Foster, Nick Palmieri, Stephanie Veilleux, 2012 2nd Round Pick (from Washington) (46th) (Raphael Bussieres) and a 2013 3rd Round Pick. Excellent, excellent trade for Minnesota.

Nick Schultz for Tom Gilbert. Great trade for both sides

Greg Zanon for Steven Kampfer. Solid trade.

I think seeing this history, you can see Fletcher moving pieces around and doing what is best for the organization. He has done a wonderful job of picking the players and draft picks. I count maybe three bad trades at best.

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12-08-2012, 01:09 AM
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I'm going with the Wild. As good as they can be in the future, superstar talent might get cups in NBA but the NHL is a different league.

If and when the Oilers win a Cup with their young talent...I can assure you none of their current defenseman except maybe Smid will be a part of it. That D needs to be a lot better, their system needs to be better because offense doesn't win you Cups even if you have Sid and Malkin. Oilers need to realize what Pittsburgh has realized and start drafting D every chance they get.

Goaltending..I honestly think Dubynk doesn't need to be much better than average if the D is good and he's definitely the future unless he screws up big in the playoffs when they get there.

Wild are becoming a more attractive location for players wanting win now rather than later. I personally can't wait for this division to finally become a good one. Vancouver can no longer just win the division the day the season starts

Overall...Wild = built now and for the future (If Granlund, Coyle, Dumba develop properly) and Oilers are built for the future.
Minnesota's days in the NW are very numbered. Hopefully they move in with the Hawks, Blues, and Wings where they belong. And with some luck, the Jets will join them too. Time to bring some old rivalries back from the dead.

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12-08-2012, 01:39 AM
  #246
thestonedkoala
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Originally Posted by victor View Post
Jordan Eberle was the 22nd player taken in the 2008 draft.

Since 2004, Edmonton has drafted Devan Dubnyk, Andrew Cogliano, Jeff Petry, Theo Peckham, Sam Gagner, Jordan Eberle, Anton Lander, and Magnus Paajarvi who have played in Edmonton. Those players, combined with the three first overalls, and Justin Schultz, and I'm less concerned about their ability to draft and develop young players.
Cogs was a bust. Gagner is in every trade rumor. And Paajarvi looks like a bust as well.

You also have to look at the state Edmonton has been in and that's using every young guy they have. I mean hell they even screwed up in 2003!

But since 2004 this is their first round picks (outside their 1st overall):
Devan Dubynk, Rob Schremp, Andrew Cogliano, Sam Gagner, Alex Plante, Riley Nash, Jordan Eberle, Magnus Paajarvi-Svensson, Oscar Klefbom.

Schremp, Cog, Plante, Nash, and to some extent Paajarvi-Svensson have all been busts. Klefbom has been injury prone. Dubnyk, Gagner and Eberle were good picks.

Since 2004 outside of that:

2004:
Roman Tesliuk, Geoff Paukovich, Liam Reddox, Bryan Young, Max Gordichuk, Stephane Goulet, Tyler Spurgeon, Bjorn Bjurling. All busts. Reddox is the only one that played 100 games and he left.

2005:
Taylor Chorney, Danny Syvret, Robby Dee, Chris Vande Velde, Vyacheslav Trukhno, Fredrik Petterson, Matthew Glassner. Chorney and Syvret aren't with the team. Vande Velde seems to get bounced around.

2006:
Jeff Petry, Theo Peckham, Bryan Pitton, Cody Wild and Alexander Bumagin. Better with Petry and Peckham developing.

2007:
Linus Omark, Milan Kytnar and William Quist. I'll give you Omark.

2008:
Johan Motin, Phillippe Cornet, Teemu Hartikainen, Jordan Bendfeld. Hartikainen looks good. Motin doesn't even look to be on the team anymore. Neither does Bendfeld. Cornet is in still in the system.

2009 is a bit mixed since they have the NCAA guys and it's too early too tell. Going to stop at 2008.

27 prospects picked. Hartikainen, Petry, Peckham, Omark, Cornet, and Vande Velde
seem to be the only ones that stuck with the team.

Minnesota has pretty much the same record as Edmonton up to that point.

Kassian, Clutterbuck, Stoner, Lorenz, Falk, Scandella are guys from that era we have developing or did develop.

2004 (ick)

Roman Voloshenko, Peter Olvecky, Clayton Stoner, Ryan Jones, Patrick Bordeleau, Julien Sprunger, Jean Claude Sawyer, Aaron Boogaard, Jean-Michel Rizk, Anton Khudobin and Kyle Wilson. Not a steller bunch.

2005 (double ick)

Benoit Pouliot, Matt Kassian, Kristofer Westblom, Kyle Bailey, Morten Madsen, Anthony Aiello, Riley Emmerson.

2006:
Ondrej Fiala. Cal Clutterbuck. Kyle Medvec. Niko Hovinen. Julian Walker. Chris Hickey.

2007:
Justin Falk, Cody Almond, Harri Ilvonen, Carson McMillan.

2008:
Marco Scandella, Sean Lorenz, Eero Elo

30 picks. 6 out of that. Not a stellar group at all. And we canned the guy for that. After 2008, Riser was kicked to the curb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Goaltending is easy. Look how well Theo did Florida, Vokoun in Florida, Anderson in Colorado, Nabby in Long Island
Theo did well in Montreal, in Washington and in Colorado. He's a backup. Vokoun as well. Did well in Nashville. Anderson was bad in Colorado after one good year. Nabby was great in San Jose.

The thing is, you didn't mention how bad other goaltending picks were. It's hit or miss like any other position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
above average who werent original draft picks.....

Luongo
Smith
Lehtonen
Halak
Nabakov
Theodore
Niemi
Rask
Varlomov
Kiprusoff

Plenty of examples
Really, Niemi? Niemi?

Mike Smith is due to outstanding coaching from Tippet. Remember what he was like in Tampa Bay? Halak cost a lot. Lehtonen cost a lot. Nabakov was a weird situation. Theodore is a journeyman. Niemi sucks. Rask was due to stupidity. Varlomov cost a 1st round pick. Kipper two 2nd round draft picks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Look around the league. I bet at least half the starting goalies arent original draft picks
New York Rangers- Lundqvist (original)
Boston Bruins - Thomas (FA)
Florida - Theodore (FA)
Pittsburgh - Fleury (original)
Philadelphia - Bryz (trade/FA)
New Jersey - Brodeur (original)
Washington - Vokoun (FA)
Ottawa - Anderson (trade)
Buffalo - Miller (original)
Tampa Bay - Garon (FA)
Winnipeg - Pavalec (original)
Carolina - Ward (Original)
Toronto - Gustavsson (FA)
New York Islanders - Nabakov (FA)
Montreal - Price - (original)

7/15 teams

Mind you Florida and Ottawa could be moving to their own goaltenders along with Washington.

Anaheim - Hiller (FA)
Calgary - Kipper (Trade)
Chicago - Crawford (Original)
Colorado - Varmalov (Trade)
Columbus - Mason (Original)
Dallas - Lehtonen (trade)
Detroit - Howard (original)
Edmonton - Dubynk (original)
Los Angeles - Quick (original)
Minnesota- Backstrom (FA)
Predators - Rinne (original)
Phoenix - Smith (FA)
San Jose - Niemi (FA)
St. Louis - Halak (Trade)
Vancouver - Luongo (Trade)

6/15

13/30 came from their original teams, 7 came from trades (which means teams had to give up something), and 10 came from FA. And the FA looks pretty bad.


Last edited by thestonedkoala: 12-08-2012 at 01:54 AM.
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12-08-2012, 03:30 AM
  #247
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Both teams have an excellent pool of prospects. Cases can be made for either team having better prospects than the other. When the pool of prospects are as close as they are in this case, its almost impossible to predict which group will eventually be better players several years down the line.


Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr

Then again this is a hockey's "future" message board...

A mathematician is an individual who believes that prophesying that his dog will die if he deprives it of food constitutes a prediction.
― Bill Gaede

Predict away!!!!

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12-08-2012, 03:50 AM
  #248
Karitimes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post

Plus.... Cam Barker for Leddy.......
Barker is still paying dividends for Wild fans. He stood around like the pylon he is and watched Zucker blow by him for the winner tonight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post

Mike Smith is due to outstanding coaching from Tippet. Remember what he was like in Tampa Bay? Halak cost a lot. Lehtonen cost a lot. Nabakov was a weird situation. Theodore is a journeyman. Niemi sucks. Rask was due to stupidity. Varlomov cost a 1st round pick. Kipper two 2nd round draft picks.
Ivan Vishnevsky aka nothing.

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12-08-2012, 03:56 AM
  #249
thestonedkoala
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Originally Posted by Karitimes View Post

Ivan Vishnevsky aka nothing.
At one time, Vishnevskiy was a good defensive prospect and probably a top prospect for Dallas. At the time, it cost a lot.

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12-08-2012, 04:05 AM
  #250
Karitimes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
it cost a lot.
Not true, at the time it was a steal and and it was quite apparent it cost the team no part of their future. The only question was could Dallas salvage Kari from poor health and even poorer training habits.

The first part of your sentence may have been correct at one point Vish was a good D prospect. So was Barker. But when it came down to the timing of Kari's acquistion, like I said, it didn't cost alot.

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