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NHL Lockout XXIV: Oi! Get your filthy hands off my desert!

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:02 PM
  #1
Chairman Maouth
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NHL Lockout XXIV: Oi! Get your filthy hands off my desert!

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"What 'e say?"

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Quote:


NHL lockout talks break off, as league, players point fingers





NHL commissioner Gary Bettman (left) and NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr.
Photograph by: Archive , Calgary Herald

NEW YORK — The NHL labour talks have hit another roadblock -- and this one appears to be massive.

After two optimistic days that suggested a deal could be imminent, negotiations between the league and the NHL Players' Association broke off dramatically Thursday.


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/h...#ixzz2EQfc5OX0

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12-07-2012, 11:09 PM
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In regards to the clownfest that was yesterday, both parties are at fault here.

First, it's Fehr, constantly showing up late, presenting the same offer, starting with de-liked BS proposals. Brainwashing his players into thinking that they're going to get a better deal if they wait it out. It wasn't a coincidence that as soon as Fehr entered the room again, the train derailed, and everything spun out of control.

Then yesterday happens. I cannot fathom how you can possibly know that A is only going to happen if you agree to B, you don't agree to B, and then you go and tell the media on national television that A has been solved. Where did B go? Oh right, you just basically lied to the media, and to hockey fans, who provide your players with their money.

As for Bettman, Daly, and the owners, they are no less at fault here. The first proposal was a joke. It was waste of time. I still don't know what they were expected when they tabled that joke. I'm not going to use the old excuse of "Why don't you honor the contracts you signed?" because this is a sports CBA, and these regular things don't apply here.

And I understand that Fehr acted like a clown when he said "Thanks for A, but we're not doing B." but that doesn't mean that you go ahead and act like clowns back. If this voicemail BS was true, then that's a new low. Might as well send a text. Are you a teenage boy breaking up with his girlfriend?

Bettman's presser reminded me of a little child who has just finally decided to share his toys, and then, after two minutes, throws a tantrum demanding them back. "Everything is off the table!!"

Each side has been unreasonable, and it feels like each side is run by a bunch of man-babies with deep pockets. There are people who depend on this CBA being set into action-and I don't mean the fan. I mean Joe Arenaworker, who, if lucky, has had his hours cut, only because the arena he worked in has an NBA team. And for an arena without an NBA team, Joe Arenaworker is struggling to pay his mortgage, or send his child to college.

You've gone too far. You can't cancel the season or cut off talks, or pout at each other like some 6-year-olds. Enough with the "He Said, He Said." Man up. Get into a room together, put your egos aside, get this done, and you will all be back to making money.

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12-07-2012, 11:12 PM
  #3
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Such a shame this thread is still going I thought it would have been a wrap 2 or 3 threads ago :facepalm.

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12-07-2012, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
In regards to the clownfest that was yesterday, both parties are at fault here.

First, it's Fehr, constantly showing up late, presenting the same offer, starting with de-liked BS proposals. Brainwashing his players into thinking that they're going to get a better deal if they wait it out. It wasn't a coincidence that as soon as Fehr entered the room again, the train derailed, and everything spun out of control.

Then yesterday happens. I cannot fathom how you can possibly know that A is only going to happen if you agree to B, you don't agree to B, and then you go and tell the media on national television that A has been solved. Where did B go? Oh right, you just basically lied to the media, and to hockey fans, who provide your players with their money.

As for Bettman, Daly, and the owners, they are no less at fault here. The first proposal was a joke. It was waste of time. I still don't know what they were expected when they tabled that joke. I'm not going to use the old excuse of "Why don't you honor the contracts you signed?" because this is a sports CBA, and these regular things don't apply here.

And I understand that Fehr acted like a clown when he said "Thanks for A, but we're not doing B." but that doesn't mean that you go ahead and act like clowns back. If this voicemail BS was true, then that's a new low. Might as well send a text. Are you a teenage boy breaking up with his girlfriend?

Bettman's presser reminded me of a little child who has just finally decided to share his toys, and then, after two minutes, throws a tantrum demanding them back. "Everything is off the table!!"

Each side has been unreasonable, and it feels like each side is run by a bunch of man-babies with deep pockets. There are people who depend on this CBA being set into action-and I don't mean the fan. I mean Joe Arenaworker, who, if lucky, has had his hours cut, only because the arena he worked in has an NBA team. And for an arena without an NBA team, Joe Arenaworker is struggling to pay his mortgage, or send his child to college.

You've gone too far. You can't cancel the season or cut off talks, or pout at each other like some 6-year-olds. Enough with the "He Said, He Said." Man up. Get into a room together, put your egos aside, get this done, and you will all be back to making money.
Very good, very sane post. I have the feeling this could go on to mid-January or even later, though. We may have another two months of man-children.

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12-07-2012, 11:14 PM
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It's been three hours since i last checked this thread and we still have a lockout? WUT IS DIS??????????

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12-07-2012, 11:14 PM
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I like the GDT vibe, maybe some of the great GDT makers here can give an entertaining version to pass the time?

I'd love to see some.

Oh, Owners and Players suck, Fans rule.

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12-07-2012, 11:16 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
In regards to the clownfest that was yesterday, both parties are at fault here.

First, it's Fehr, constantly showing up late, presenting the same offer, starting with de-liked BS proposals. Brainwashing his players into thinking that they're going to get a better deal if they wait it out. It wasn't a coincidence that as soon as Fehr entered the room again, the train derailed, and everything spun out of control.

Then yesterday happens. I cannot fathom how you can possibly know that A is only going to happen if you agree to B, you don't agree to B, and then you go and tell the media on national television that A has been solved. Where did B go? Oh right, you just basically lied to the media, and to hockey fans, who provide your players with their money.

As for Bettman, Daly, and the owners, they are no less at fault here. The first proposal was a joke. It was waste of time. I still don't know what they were expected when they tabled that joke. I'm not going to use the old excuse of "Why don't you honor the contracts you signed?" because this is a sports CBA, and these regular things don't apply here.

And I understand that Fehr acted like a clown when he said "Thanks for A, but we're not doing B." but that doesn't mean that you go ahead and act like clowns back. If this voicemail BS was true, then that's a new low. Might as well send a text. Are you a teenage boy breaking up with his girlfriend?

Bettman's presser reminded me of a little child who has just finally decided to share his toys, and then, after two minutes, throws a tantrum demanding them back. "Everything is off the table!!"

Each side has been unreasonable, and it feels like each side is run by a bunch of man-babies with deep pockets. There are people who depend on this CBA being set into action-and I don't mean the fan. I mean Joe Arenaworker, who, if lucky, has had his hours cut, only because the arena he worked in has an NBA team. And for an arena without an NBA team, Joe Arenaworker is struggling to pay his mortgage, or send his child to college.

You've gone too far. You can't cancel the season or cut off talks, or pout at each other like some 6-year-olds. Enough with the "He Said, He Said." Man up. Get into a room together, put your egos aside, get this done, and you will all be back to making money.
Well thought out post and very well said because its true it takes two to tango. Both sides are to blame.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:18 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
In regards to the clownfest that was yesterday, both parties are at fault here.

First, it's Fehr, constantly showing up late, presenting the same offer, starting with de-liked BS proposals. Brainwashing his players into thinking that they're going to get a better deal if they wait it out. It wasn't a coincidence that as soon as Fehr entered the room again, the train derailed, and everything spun out of control.

Then yesterday happens. I cannot fathom how you can possibly know that A is only going to happen if you agree to B, you don't agree to B, and then you go and tell the media on national television that A has been solved. Where did B go? Oh right, you just basically lied to the media, and to hockey fans, who provide your players with their money.

As for Bettman, Daly, and the owners, they are no less at fault here. The first proposal was a joke. It was waste of time. I still don't know what they were expected when they tabled that joke. I'm not going to use the old excuse of "Why don't you honor the contracts you signed?" because this is a sports CBA, and these regular things don't apply here.

And I understand that Fehr acted like a clown when he said "Thanks for A, but we're not doing B." but that doesn't mean that you go ahead and act like clowns back. If this voicemail BS was true, then that's a new low. Might as well send a text. Are you a teenage boy breaking up with his girlfriend?

Bettman's presser reminded me of a little child who has just finally decided to share his toys, and then, after two minutes, throws a tantrum demanding them back. "Everything is off the table!!"

Each side has been unreasonable, and it feels like each side is run by a bunch of man-babies with deep pockets. There are people who depend on this CBA being set into action-and I don't mean the fan. I mean Joe Arenaworker, who, if lucky, has had his hours cut, only because the arena he worked in has an NBA team. And for an arena without an NBA team, Joe Arenaworker is struggling to pay his mortgage, or send his child to college.

You've gone too far. You can't cancel the season or cut off talks, or pout at each other like some 6-year-olds. Enough with the "He Said, He Said." Man up. Get into a room together, put your egos aside, get this done, and you will all be back to making money.
I still think the real problem was the NHLPA's attitude up until they realized they weren't going to be able to get the linkage removed.

Ya the NHL's first offer was silly, but so was the NHLPA's first offer.

The NHL's next offer was markedly better and contains various sections that most NHL fans agree are good for the game.

The PA then tabled 3 ridiculous offers that took away linkage to revenue... then nothing until November 21st after the NHL agreed to fix the make whole.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:21 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
I still think the real problem was the NHLPA's attitude up until they realized they weren't going to be able to get the linkage removed.

Ya the NHL's first offer was silly, but so was the NHLPA's first offer.

The NHL's next offer was markedly better and contains various sections that most NHL fans agree are good for the game.

The PA then tabled 3 ridiculous offers that took away linkage to revenue... then nothing until November 21st after the NHL agreed to fix the make whole.
Both sides have come out looking like children with big wallets here. And I honestly believe that, if the season is cancelled, the PA will put the cap back on the table.

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12-07-2012, 11:25 PM
  #10
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Just out of curiosity, how many people would actually be interested in an NHL season that started late January, early February at the latest?

Personally, I don't know if I'll be keeping up too much if the season is below 50 games or starts as late as February. Beginning of January is the cut-off for me

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12-07-2012, 11:28 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
In regards to the clownfest that was yesterday, both parties are at fault here.

First, it's Fehr, constantly showing up late, presenting the same offer, starting with de-liked BS proposals. Brainwashing his players into thinking that they're going to get a better deal if they wait it out. It wasn't a coincidence that as soon as Fehr entered the room again, the train derailed, and everything spun out of control.

Then yesterday happens. I cannot fathom how you can possibly know that A is only going to happen if you agree to B, you don't agree to B, and then you go and tell the media on national television that A has been solved. Where did B go? Oh right, you just basically lied to the media, and to hockey fans, who provide your players with their money.

As for Bettman, Daly, and the owners, they are no less at fault here. The first proposal was a joke. It was waste of time. I still don't know what they were expected when they tabled that joke. I'm not going to use the old excuse of "Why don't you honor the contracts you signed?" because this is a sports CBA, and these regular things don't apply here.

And I understand that Fehr acted like a clown when he said "Thanks for A, but we're not doing B." but that doesn't mean that you go ahead and act like clowns back. If this voicemail BS was true, then that's a new low. Might as well send a text. Are you a teenage boy breaking up with his girlfriend?

Bettman's presser reminded me of a little child who has just finally decided to share his toys, and then, after two minutes, throws a tantrum demanding them back. "Everything is off the table!!"

Each side has been unreasonable, and it feels like each side is run by a bunch of man-babies with deep pockets. There are people who depend on this CBA being set into action-and I don't mean the fan. I mean Joe Arenaworker, who, if lucky, has had his hours cut, only because the arena he worked in has an NBA team. And for an arena without an NBA team, Joe Arenaworker is struggling to pay his mortgage, or send his child to college.

You've gone too far. You can't cancel the season or cut off talks, or pout at each other like some 6-year-olds. Enough with the "He Said, He Said." Man up. Get into a room together, put your egos aside, get this done, and you will all be back to making money.
My goodness.

Anyone who listened to Fehr's tone and his message could pick up that while he was saying he thought they two sides were close, that obviously the owners didn't think so.

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12-07-2012, 11:29 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
Just out of curiosity, how many people would actually be interested in an NHL season that started late January, early February at the latest?

Personally, I don't know if I'll be keeping up too much if the season is below 50 games or starts as late as February. Beginning of January is the cut-off for me
If not a single game was played and they went right into the playoffs, I'd probably watch that.
I don't plan on watching a single regular season game, regardless.

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12-07-2012, 11:30 PM
  #13
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It's not even that the NHLPA decided to counterpropose on a 'package' offer. It's how they did it.

First of all, forget the fake presser which was clearly designed to deceive the public because Fehr knew that he had just pissed off the owners royally. The problem goes back MUCH further than that.

We know that the reason that Wednesday went slowly (which is what started to frustrate the owners) is that the players were continually consulting with Don Fehr which slowed down the process.

I don't blame the players for this since this is obviously not their skillset - although one questions WTF Steve Fehr was doing in there...just being a sack of potatoes in a bad sweater and a headset? How is that guy going to be the future NHLPA executive director? But I digress.

However, given that Don was essentially in the room with the players - why didn't they just head the owners off before they got to a 'yes/no' package offer? At any point Fehr could have said - look, I see where this is going but we know what you're going to say about e.g. CBA term. We're going to need to keep negotiating.

Even if you let that mistake go, he could have just simply said "we think we need to negotiate further - we'll have to say no but we do have a counter proposal ready if you'd like to hear it" instead of throwing a counter-proposal on the table in response to a yes/no question.

Ok, let that one go - he could have then chosen not to have a presser to whine and moan about how reasonable he thinks the NHLPA offer had been. The Daly phone call would have been answered, and the NHL presser would probably have been 'we proposed a package that they said no to, we're going to continue to negotiate'.

There were multiple outs here that Fehr could have taken but chose not to. To me that speaks of willfully sabotaging these proceedings. And I don't mean that they shouldn't have counter-proposed. They should have treated the situation more delicately considering they were negotiating directly with the MODERATES who write the paycheques.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:31 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
Both sides have come out looking like children with big wallets here. And I honestly believe that, if the season is cancelled, the PA will put the cap back on the table.
Then the owners will put guaranteed contracts back on the table and nuclear winter time for everyone.

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12-07-2012, 11:32 PM
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My goodness.

Anyone who listened to Fehr's tone and his message could pick up that while he was saying he thought they two sides were close, that obviously the owners didn't think so.
Sorry, we were trying to hear through all the monkey poop he was throwing against the wall.

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12-07-2012, 11:33 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Then the owners will put guaranteed contracts back on the table and nuclear winter time for everyone.
If the owners cancel, Fehr will have license to go nuclear.

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12-07-2012, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
Just out of curiosity, how many people would actually be interested in an NHL season that started late January, early February at the latest?

Personally, I don't know if I'll be keeping up too much if the season is below 50 games or starts as late as February. Beginning of January is the cut-off for me
If you'd asked me Nov 7th after being 'close' to an 82 game sched. then negotiations blowing up if I'd be interested in a 60ish game season starting in mid to late Dec I would have said no. If you'd asked me Monday I would have said hell yes.

A mid to late January season with only 48 games does NOT sound appealing AT ALL at this point but if it comes close again I'm sure I'd be all for it.

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12-07-2012, 11:34 PM
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If the owners cancel, Fehr will have license to go nuclear.
If the owners cancel Fehr will go after the cap no? THAT will be UG-LY

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12-07-2012, 11:37 PM
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My goodness.

Anyone who listened to Fehr's tone and his message could pick up that while he was saying he thought they two sides were close, that obviously the owners didn't think so.
Do you actually believe this? Fehr was portraying it like we were around the corner from hockey, but the players didn't seem to be looking like that was true.

They knew the offer was going to be rejected, because the owners told them it was a as is deal.

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12-07-2012, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
Just out of curiosity, how many people would actually be interested in an NHL season that started late January, early February at the latest?

Personally, I don't know if I'll be keeping up too much if the season is below 50 games or starts as late as February. Beginning of January is the cut-off for me
50 would be my cutoff too but i guess 48 would have to work as well, I just want hockey back at this point. Enough is enough we have suffered enough.

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12-07-2012, 11:41 PM
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Going Nuclear IMO means we won't have hockey for at least 2 full seasons as one side will pull the cap or attempt too and the other side will attempt to pull guaranteed contracts. That would be a 2 year lockout minimum at best I think.

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12-07-2012, 11:42 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
Brainwashing his players into thinking that they're going to get a better deal if they wait it out.
Every "last, final offer" has been bettered by another "last, final offer". The players are not being "brainwashed", the owners are showing them that Fehr is right.

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12-07-2012, 11:43 PM
  #23
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I'd watch it if it were only 10 games as ridiculous as it would be. Though I am at a point where I'm starting to care less and less now.

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12-07-2012, 11:43 PM
  #24
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Going Nuclear IMO means we won't have hockey for at least 2 full seasons as one side will pull the cap or attempt too and the other side will attempt to pull guaranteed contracts. That would be a 2 year lockout minimum at best I think.
By that time, half the players wont even have money anymore. The owners will.

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12-07-2012, 11:44 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
We know that the reason that Wednesday went slowly (which is what started to frustrate the owners) is that the players were continually consulting with Don Fehr which slowed down the process.

I don't blame the players for this since this is obviously not their skillset - although one questions WTF Steve Fehr was doing in there...just being a sack of potatoes in a bad sweater and a headset? How is that guy going to be the future NHLPA executive director? But I digress.
I've wondered this as well to be honest. They keep saying that they wanted Don in there because they felt that they were "close to a deal" and that they needed someone who could "close the deal" or whatever the terminology they used.

Then what the hell was Steve Fehr doing in there? Is he not a lawyer? Is he not someone who's expected to take over for his brother Don when he retires? Is he not someone who can "close the deal"?

All of their answers to what went wrong just seems like their answers are full of holes.

NHLPA: "Let's bring Mediators back to the table!", "We believe that we're close to a deal..."

NHL: "If we're close to a deal why do we need a mediator?"

That right there is all I need to hear to know that certain, high-ranking members of the PA and its staff have no legitimate interest in striking a deal.

But, to be fair, I'm pissed at the PA and the Players right now, but it IS the fault of both sides, because I truly wonder where negotiations would have gone if the NHL didn't begin negotiations with that truly terrible offer.

So, in the end, these two sides deserve each other.

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