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Vancouver proposals(Columbus, Washington)

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:20 PM
  #51
Mayor Bee
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Wow. I think it's way too complicated with too many pieces to be plausible. I really can't even comment on value, I don't know enough about the Jackets players.
The value is hideously unbalanced.

Vancouver undoubtedly had a chance to trade Luongo around the time of the draft. They overplayed their hand badly, and now they're either stuck with him or will get a minimal return in the almost non-existent trade market. Columbus addressed a need in net with Bobrovsky, and all reports have been that Steve Mason has answered by working his ass off.

Malhotra holds no value to Columbus; he's done nothing since getting hurt. Hansen is nothing special; he's 26-year-old depth at this point. Ballard is nothing special. Kassian is a huge wild card.

So basically it's Luongo for:
- Steve Mason
- RJ Umberger, who slots in on the 2nd and 3rd lines
- Artem Anisimov, who has yet to play a game with Columbus
- Colton Gillies, who's replaceable depth
- Cody Bass, who's replaceable depth
- Adrian Aucoin, who has one or two years left but may be vital to tutoring the CBJ's stable of young defensemen
- John Moore, one of the the top CBJ defensive prospects
- Theo Ruth, whose future pro prospects remain unknown
- Drew Olson, same as Ruth
- A 1st-round pick in what looks like an extremely deep draft, which is insane.

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12-07-2012, 11:21 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by joshcateyes View Post
What happened to the days of big trades?
Essentially this trade gives the canucks what they want. They get a first round pick. They get prospects (Moore, Ruth, Olson, Bass) They dump Ballard and Loungo's Salary. They get a veteran guy whos been around the leauge a long time in Adrian Aucoin.
What's Columbus get out of it? Absolutely nothing, except for a goalie on an extremely long-term contract who was available all last year?

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12-07-2012, 11:28 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
The value is hideously unbalanced.

Vancouver undoubtedly had a chance to trade Luongo around the time of the draft. They overplayed their hand badly, and now they're either stuck with him or will get a minimal return in the almost non-existent trade market. Columbus addressed a need in net with Bobrovsky, and all reports have been that Steve Mason has answered by working his ass off.

Malhotra holds no value to Columbus; he's done nothing since getting hurt. Hansen is nothing special; he's 26-year-old depth at this point. Ballard is nothing special. Kassian is a huge wild card.

So basically it's Luongo for:
- Steve Mason
- RJ Umberger, who slots in on the 2nd and 3rd lines
- Artem Anisimov, who has yet to play a game with Columbus
- Colton Gillies, who's replaceable depth
- Cody Bass, who's replaceable depth
- Adrian Aucoin, who has one or two years left but may be vital to tutoring the CBJ's stable of young defensemen
- John Moore, one of the the top CBJ defensive prospects
- Theo Ruth, whose future pro prospects remain unknown
- Drew Olson, same as Ruth
- A 1st-round pick in what looks like an extremely deep draft, which is insane.
So in terms of tangible value, Umberger, Anisimov, Moore, and a 1st seem to be the only things Vancouver could use.

Let's drop redundant assets out of the picture. That leaves, from our end(tangible value), Kassian >= Moore, Anisimov >= Hansen, then Luongo = Umberger + 1st(if it were LA/NYR, not CBJ).

You may disagree about Luongo's value, but you have done absolutely nothing to show Gillis has "overplayed his hand badly" or will get minmal return.

Now I understand Luongo to Columbus does not make much sense at the current time. That doesn't mean you need to rag on him.

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12-08-2012, 12:06 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So in terms of tangible value, Umberger, Anisimov, Moore, and a 1st seem to be the only things Vancouver could use.

Let's drop redundant assets out of the picture. That leaves, from our end(tangible value), Kassian >= Moore, Anisimov >= Hansen, then Luongo = Umberger + 1st(if it were LA/NYR, not CBJ).

You may disagree about Luongo's value, but you have done absolutely nothing to show Gillis has "overplayed his hand badly" or will get minmal return.

Now I understand Luongo to Columbus does not make much sense at the current time. That doesn't mean you need to rag on him.
Coming into this offseason, the following teams needed goalies, and were known to need goalies.
- Tampa Bay
- Columbus
- Toronto
- Chicago, depending on who you ask

This created an extremely lucrative market for any team that had a spare goalie. All three teams had young prospects, high draft picks, and a glaring need that was known to everyone around the league. And of the possible available goalies, none of them had proven as much as Luongo had. And there wasn't necessarily a need to make it Luongo; it could have been Schneider if the price was right.

The first piece was Tampa Bay trading two 2nd-rounders and a 3rd-rounder (plus Sebastien Caron) to get Anders Lindback from Nashville. Reportedly Columbus offered more, but Nashville refused to deal within the division. This left a two-team market, and the obvious available goalies were both on the same team. So what happens? Columbus traded for Sergei Bobrovsky, who wasn't even known to be on the market. Vancouver had two teams (Columbus and Toronto), and couldn't make a deal with either one. They still have both goalies, but a severely restricted marketplace.

Look, I like Luongo. I actively spoke up on the CBJ board about acquiring him; he's a perennial All-Star, one of the best in the game, and I think that all that stuff about "clutch" and "choke" is a bunch of garbage. I'd have been ecstatic to have him in Columbus, but only for the right price.

But in this case, the market has moved on. Columbus has Bobrovsky and an apparently-improved Mason. There are a couple more in the pipeline as well. None of them is the caliber of Luongo, but the value appears to have been a lot better.

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12-08-2012, 12:12 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Coming into this offseason, the following teams needed goalies, and were known to need goalies.
- Tampa Bay
- Columbus
- Toronto
- Chicago, depending on who you ask

This created an extremely lucrative market for any team that had a spare goalie. All three teams had young prospects, high draft picks, and a glaring need that was known to everyone around the league. And of the possible available goalies, none of them had proven as much as Luongo had. And there wasn't necessarily a need to make it Luongo; it could have been Schneider if the price was right.

The first piece was Tampa Bay trading two 2nd-rounders and a 3rd-rounder (plus Sebastien Caron) to get Anders Lindback from Nashville. Reportedly Columbus offered more, but Nashville refused to deal within the division. This left a two-team market, and the obvious available goalies were both on the same team. So what happens? Columbus traded for Sergei Bobrovsky, who wasn't even known to be on the market. Vancouver had two teams (Columbus and Toronto), and couldn't make a deal with either one. They still have both goalies, but a severely restricted marketplace.

Look, I like Luongo. I actively spoke up on the CBJ board about acquiring him; he's a perennial All-Star, one of the best in the game, and I think that all that stuff about "clutch" and "choke" is a bunch of garbage. I'd have been ecstatic to have him in Columbus, but only for the right price.

But in this case, the market has moved on. Columbus has Bobrovsky and an apparently-improved Mason. There are a couple more in the pipeline as well. None of them is the caliber of Luongo, but the value appears to have been a lot better.
And if Gillis waits until the season starts, any of the following teams might feel more pressured to make the playoffs/cup run.

Chicago
Toronto
Tampa Bay(If Lindback gets lit up without two franchise defensemen in front of him)
Edmonton
Washington(if Holtby is incapable of being a starter)

Heck, even a Winnipeg fan said he'd be interested in Luongo at a decent price. Teams will be more inclined to go after a sure thing if their gambles in net don't pay off and they need to find results. Obviously there's a good chance that many of these goaltending situations resolve themselves. But for the ones that don't, the pressure will be all the greater.

It's a gamble, but it's far too early to say Gillis blew it. I'd recommend waiting until a deal actually happens before passing judgement. Personally I think Gillis made the right decision. Only time and hindsight may prove him wrong.

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12-08-2012, 12:16 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
And if Gillis waits until the season starts, any of the following teams might feel more pressured to make the playoffs/cup run.

Chicago
Toronto
Tampa Bay(If Lindback gets lit up without two franchise defensemen in front of him)
Edmonton
Washington(if Holtby is incapable of being a starter)

Heck, even a Winnipeg fan said he'd be interested in Luongo at a decent price. Teams will be more inclined to go after a sure thing if their gambles in net don't pay off and they need to find results. Obviously there's a good chance that many of these goaltending situations resolve themselves. But for the ones that don't, the pressure will be all the greater.

It's a gamble, but it's far too early to say Gillis blew it. I'd recommend waiting until a deal actually happens before passing judgement. Personally I think Gillis made the right decision. Only time and hindsight may prove him wrong.
Please leave Edmonton out of this.

Edmonton and Vancouver are not trading for a goalie (or anything else) anytime soon. Right?

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12-08-2012, 12:21 AM
  #57
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Please leave Edmonton out of this.

Edmonton and Vancouver are not trading for a goalie (or anything else) anytime soon. Right?
I only mentioned any teams that I think might feel pressured to make the playoffs/contend and have a decent chance their starter is not up to scratch. It's possible, even probable, that Dubnyk's the man. But he's still not a sure thing. All it takes is two or three teams that get deperate during the season and it will help raise Luongo's value.

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12-08-2012, 09:09 AM
  #58
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its been mentioned already. i'll just back it up. carlson is a non-starter. he is already being projected as a norris trophy level defenseman. he is a shutdown pair puck mover as of his rookie season. he just signed a cap friendly 6 year contract. the caps arent trading him.

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12-08-2012, 08:37 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
And if Gillis waits until the season starts, any of the following teams might feel more pressured to make the playoffs/cup run.

Chicago
Toronto
Tampa Bay(If Lindback gets lit up without two franchise defensemen in front of him)
Edmonton
Washington(if Holtby is incapable of being a starter)

Heck, even a Winnipeg fan said he'd be interested in Luongo at a decent price. Teams will be more inclined to go after a sure thing if their gambles in net don't pay off and they need to find results. Obviously there's a good chance that many of these goaltending situations resolve themselves. But for the ones that don't, the pressure will be all the greater.

It's a gamble, but it's far too early to say Gillis blew it. I'd recommend waiting until a deal actually happens before passing judgement. Personally I think Gillis made the right decision. Only time and hindsight may prove him wrong.
Tampa Bay isn't going to just scrap everything if Lindback struggles. If Holtby struggles, Neuvirth goes back in. Edmonton has Dubnyk, and they can always sell the "rebuilding" angle even if the team struggles.

That would leave Toronto and Chicago. And that's all well and good, if it remains a one-goalie marketplace and both teams need a goalie. So that's still banking on a couple of other occurrences happening, and also hoping that no one else decides to move a goalie as well.

Yes, I think Gillis blew his best chance. It would take something extreme and unforeseen to change that.

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12-08-2012, 09:16 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Tampa Bay isn't going to just scrap everything if Lindback struggles. If Holtby struggles, Neuvirth goes back in. Edmonton has Dubnyk, and they can always sell the "rebuilding" angle even if the team struggles.

That would leave Toronto and Chicago. And that's all well and good, if it remains a one-goalie marketplace and both teams need a goalie. So that's still banking on a couple of other occurrences happening, and also hoping that no one else decides to move a goalie as well.

Yes, I think Gillis blew his best chance. It would take something extreme and unforeseen to change that.
I understand that you have your own opinion, but most of your post is just that. Until we see the return we'll never really know.

Although I think even two teams that are desperate will generate a greater return than 5 that are only semi-interested.

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12-08-2012, 09:18 PM
  #61
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I personally am just a big fan of trades that move a lot of pieces. And I also took into consideration that the Canucks showed their depth in the cup finals when they had so many injuries...hence all the added depth in the trade.

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12-09-2012, 01:50 AM
  #62
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Only player I'd be interested in for Carlson would be Henrik Sedin and that's if we're making a major push and have all other pieces in place. A 22 year old top pairing defenseman with Norris potential signed to a 6 year contract making less than most 2nd pairing guys does not get traded without a guaranteed cup coming back.

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12-09-2012, 10:58 AM
  #63
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Only player I'd be interested in for Carlson would be Henrik Sedin and that's if we're making a major push and have all other pieces in place. A 22 year old top pairing defenseman with Norris potential signed to a 6 year contract making less than most 2nd pairing guys does not get traded without a guaranteed cup coming back.
H. Sedin + D. Sedin + Luongo + Edler

For

Ovechkin + Backstom + Carlson + Green

Picks to even things out but that would depend a lot on how the key pieces, particularly Ovechkin, Luongo, and Green are valued in your mind.

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12-09-2012, 01:43 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
H. Sedin + D. Sedin + Luongo + Edler

For

Ovechkin + Backstom + Carlson + Green

Picks to even things out but that would depend a lot on how the key pieces, particularly Ovechkin, Luongo, and Green are valued in your mind.
Carlson >>>>>>>>>>> Luongo (who is actually negative value to us)

Green = Edler give or take. He's actually seems to have mastered the art of playoff defense and Edler was a wreck last playoffs. Depends on health and whatnot.

Ovechkin >>>> D Sedin with age considered
Backstrom >> H Sedin with age considered

Vancouver would be adding picks for the next decade.

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12-09-2012, 02:03 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Carlson >>>> Luongo (who is actually negative value to us)

Green < Edler give or take. He's actually seems to have mastered the art of playoff defense and Edler was a wreck last playoffs. Depends on health and whatnot.

Ovechkin > D Sedin with age considered
Backstrom > H Sedin with age considered

Vancouver would be adding picks for the next decade.
The Canucks see it this way, so they're not going to add what Washington would want (Kesler ++).

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Old
12-09-2012, 09:55 PM
  #66
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shortshorts:

If Columbus picked first overall who would you take?

Not that shoot-first center Nathan Mackinnon, right?
I would take Jones first personally.

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