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Old
12-08-2012, 12:22 AM
  #76
mstad101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgan Gardiner View Post
Hence, why I took Kadri out of the trade. Not giving up both Kadri AND Colborne for Lu.

I'd do...

1 of Joe Colborne or Nazem Kadri
Tyler Bozak
Stuart Percy
2nd Rounder
Underwhelming deal. No real valuable piece. More moderate value packaged together to try and bump up the value of said package.
Yet with the futures package Vancouver would want a minimum piece that holds value by itself to chase missing pieces near the deadline.

Not a deal I would pull the trigger on. Rather change Percy for the 1st or up the 2nd

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:30 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgan Gardiner View Post
Nazem Kadri
Tyler Bozak
Jesse Blacker
3rd Rounder

In my opinion, it goes Finn > Blacker > Percy.

All three are Toronto-area boys.
Perhaps a different piece then? Blacker isn't really a stand out to me either, not when we have Sauve, Connauton, McNally, Tanev and others already in our system, I think Finn is the only clear improvement. Blacker and Percy can be argued, but I dunno, no impressed with either, and downgrading the pick isn't doing it for me either.

I understand the desire to keep Frattin, (from the original trade I think I started with) we have the same kind of feelings about Hansen, in that he'd be far more valuable to us then in a trade for what he does.

Bozak and Kadri are the rumoured (albeit via Samjam99) pieces that are "confirmed", but I'm having a hard time thinking that is the main element of the trade.

And speaking personally (as if anyone would want me to speak for them...), picks are really first or nothing for me. We have yet to see anyone drafted by Gillis see time in the NHL, outside of Hodgson, who seemed to be more allowed to play 3C for us out of fear of losing him or losing value for him in hindsight. Second and third round picks don't add as much value to us as it would to a team looking to build through youth and internal development, like Toronto.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:31 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgan Gardiner View Post
Nazem Kadri
Tyler Bozak
Jesse Blacker
3rd Rounder

In my opinion, it goes Finn > Blacker > Percy.

All three are Toronto-area boys.
Already got a better deal on previous page. Thanks for coming out though.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:38 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgan Gardiner View Post
Expendable doesn't mean you give up more in a trade than you should.

I'm not head-over-heels in love with Kadri either but I know his talent level is extremely high and his value is too much to include him in a deal with Joe Colborne, Tyler Bozak and a high pick for Luongo.
Luongo is worth it in my opinion. Luongo gives us immediate help in goaltending with a team that potentially could not only make it to the playoffs but also make some noise. Kadri's talent is turned into goaltending talent, which I think is fair considering we hardly have space for him on our roster now, or in a few years. Like I said before, considering who we currently have on the wings, I don't think Kadri will bring that much of a different game, while Luongo would completely change our almost every aspect of this team.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:40 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Would you swap out the 2nd to Blacker? I would like Finn more, but I respect he is kind of the new toy on Christmas Day right now and is hard to part with. Putting up nice numbers. Looking a lot better than our second round pick last year lol.

Van
Bozak
Kadri
Colbourne
Blacker

Tor
Luongo
While I would still do this, seems like a lot of players to trade for just one. Maybe send another player back from Vancouver and it would seem more balanced. IMO value is pretty decent, just volume a bit off.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:41 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Post 852/857
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...300863&page=35

Imo was the best one.

Luongo + Raymond for Kadri, protected 1st, Ashton, Macarthur.

If you swapped Macarthur and Ashton for Kulemin, I'd give the green light, but you explained your position on that.


His _best_ proposal is good, but not good enough. That should tell you something. Contrast this with LL who has gotten multiple agreements for his varied proposals. It's all perception.


You've been a fixture on the trade boards for quite some time. I've seen you agree to many proposals I wouldn't touch. If you can't find agreement with _anything_ he has posted, I'm not sure why your stance is what it is.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:42 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
While I would still do this, seems like a lot of players to trade for just one. Maybe send another player back from Vancouver and it would seem more balanced. IMO value is pretty decent, just volume a bit off.
Personally, I'd rather condense the value into fewer pieces with more value.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:47 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Personally, I'd rather condense the value into fewer pieces with more value.
I feel like we came to an agreement earlier in the summer over a deal...was it possibly like Kulemin + Bozak/MaC/Colborne?+ something for Luongo+Raymond

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:49 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Personally, I'd rather condense the value into fewer pieces with more value.
This. Quality over quantity. Vancouver is an attractive place to play for a lot of players. There are plenty of solid 3rd/4th liners that are willing to sign with the Canucks as UFA's without the Canucks having to get them through trade. We aren't in any rush to trade Luongo for a bunch of marginal pieces that may never even play in this league.

If we DO end up trading for quantity over quality, I doubt it will be with Toronto. MG wouldn't want to help Burke out that much. Not the best relationship between those two. If Burke is not offering enough quality, I'm sure MG would rather send Roberto to another team and not help out the Leafs organization.

I can't see AV ever liking Kadri. Kadri celebrates too much.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:50 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
Perhaps a different piece then? Blacker isn't really a stand out to me either, not when we have Sauve, Connauton, McNally, Tanev and others already in our system, I think Finn is the only clear improvement. Blacker and Percy can be argued, but I dunno, no impressed with either, and downgrading the pick isn't doing it for me either.

I understand the desire to keep Frattin, (from the original trade I think I started with) we have the same kind of feelings about Hansen, in that he'd be far more valuable to us then in a trade for what he does.

Bozak and Kadri are the rumoured (albeit via Samjam99) pieces that are "confirmed", but I'm having a hard time thinking that is the main element of the trade.

And speaking personally (as if anyone would want me to speak for them...), picks are really first or nothing for me. We have yet to see anyone drafted by Gillis see time in the NHL, outside of Hodgson, who seemed to be more allowed to play 3C for us out of fear of losing him or losing value for him in hindsight. Second and third round picks don't add as much value to us as it would to a team looking to build through youth and internal development, like Toronto.
like I said in another topic wouldn't it be via millard? he posted kadri bozak 3 days before samjam

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:51 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
I feel like we came to an agreement earlier in the summer over a deal...was it possibly like Kulemin + Bozak/MaC/Colborne?+ something for Luongo+Raymond
Ideally I'd do something like Kulemin + Kadri + 1st conditional on the Leafs making the playoffs for Luongo + Raymond, or something similar to that.

I mean, if all of Gardiner, JVR, Lupul, Phaneuf, Grabovski, are all off the table, then there's only so far I personally would bend.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:53 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgan Gardiner View Post
Nazem Kadri
Tyler Bozak
Jesse Blacker
3rd Rounder

In my opinion, it goes Finn > Blacker > Percy.

All three are Toronto-area boys.
if this was the deal i'd do backflips

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:54 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
My post was more a general response to bashing like this.


I mean, I'm sure we all sometimes get under each other's skins, but I don't think the general feel for value is that far apart anymore.




If his general feel for value is there, where are the agreements? Why do you still contemplate his _best_ offer instead of accepting it?


This is tell tale sign that he's offering up enough to get a conversation (although that aspect is dwindling rapidly), but not enough to get a deal, while pushing his value without compromise. This is not going to get an agreement. All this is going to do is cause people to become antagonistic to his position --> which is exactly what we have seen happen in these threads.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:56 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Ideally I'd do something like Kulemin + Kadri + 1st conditional on the Leafs making the playoffs for Luongo + Raymond, or something similar to that.

I mean, if all of Gardiner, JVR, Lupul, Phaneuf, Grabovski, are all off the table, then there's only so far I personally would bend.
At this point, for me anyway, Kulemin and Kadri would not be in the same deal as each other. Protected 1st if it turns to a 2nd if we miss that playoffs. Essentially I would only part with the first if there is no chance we could lose out on a lottery pick.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:58 AM
  #90
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If his general feel for value is there, where are the agreements? Why do you still contemplate his _best_ offer instead of accepting it?


This is tell tale sign that he's offering up enough to get a conversation (although that aspect is dwindling rapidly), but not enough to get a deal, while pushing his value without compromise. This is not going to get an agreement. All this is going to do is cause people to become antagonistic to his position --> which is exactly what we have seen happen in these threads.
Whatever. While I have my disagreements over his portrayal of Luongo's contract, I don't think the value is too off. I'm not going to hate on someone because their opinion of what their team needs are differs from my understanding.(ex, I feel JVR makes Kulemin expendable. DougGilmour doesn't).

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12-08-2012, 12:58 AM
  #91
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Who's more valuable to Leafs fans, Frattin or Biggs?

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:02 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
At this point, for me anyway, Kulemin and Kadri would not be in the same deal as each other. Protected 1st if it turns to a 2nd if we miss that playoffs. Essentially I would only part with the first if there is no chance we could lose out on a lottery pick.
If your roster had:

Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
JVR-Grabo-Macarthur

As a top-6, that's really not too shabby. And with youngguys like Frattin, Ashton, and Biggs coming through the ranks to provide solid depth in your bottom-6, while the number 1 C spot is yet to be filled(although this year's UFA crop looks very intriguing-Getzlaf, Zajac, Weiss[Toronto boy]), it's still a pretty solid group.

I'm fine with that condition on the pick. If I were picky I'd say either top-10 or it becomes a 2nd, or on playoffs or it becomes a 1st the next year the Leafs make the playoffs, but imo there's no way the Leafs with Luongo miss the playoffs, so it doesn't matter to me all that much.

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:08 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
like I said in another topic wouldn't it be via millard? he posted kadri bozak 3 days before samjam
All I know is Samjam reported it too, and his hit ratio on this so far is 0. I feel as safe saying it's Millard throwing darts at a board covered in names and picking what he hits after samjam got a hold of it, just like our buddy Eklund. I don't trust Millard much myself, but I'd put more stock in to it if it wasn't backed up by someone...so ridiculous

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:15 AM
  #94
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Who's more valuable to Leafs fans, Frattin or Biggs?
Keep both thanks.

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:19 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Whatever. While I have my disagreements over his portrayal of Luongo's contract, I don't think the value is too off. I'm not going to hate on someone because their opinion of what their team needs are differs from my understanding.(ex, I feel JVR makes Kulemin expendable. DougGilmour doesn't).



I didn't expect you to. You're more than happy to just talk trade with anyone it seems, regardless of if it leads anywhere.


But for the people who actually come to this thread to make a "deal", or come to a fair _agreement on value, DG93 has consistently balked at the opportunity. He's turned aside many including StringerBell, Cogburn, Numbers, Y2K (extreme case), DTS (I believe), myself and others. His opinion doesn't just differ, it is misinformed, and it is static. Static to the point of not leading the discussion anywhere.


I'd love for you two to come to an agreement on something to prove otherwise...

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12-08-2012, 01:20 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
I feel like we came to an agreement earlier in the summer over a deal...was it possibly like Kulemin + Bozak/MaC/Colborne?+ something for Luongo+Raymond
There's a pretty big discrepancy between what we've "agreed" upon as a group and that little deal there. We're still no where close enough to build a majority on either side.

Kulemin and Raymond, Canucks are calling a wash. I feel Kulemin supplies more of what we need in a 3rd liner or fringe second liner, but that it's not enough of an improvement to merit either of their inclusions. At least that was my read.

We're running with the rumour of Kadri and Bozak as inclusions, mostly because I feel we're so bored on both sides.

Kulemin+one of them just...doesn't seem anywhere close. Unless the plus was significant, I don't think it will fly as a return.

I mean, one offer that LL or Marty123 had was Lupul+conditional first (on playoffs). I liked that, but Canucks fans don't want a UFA as the meat and potatoes of the deal, and the Leafs fans felt that Luongo wasn't worth a winger thats a ppg with their team and playing a first line role.

The Bozak/Kadri/Frattin/Finn offer is another favorite, but many Leafs fans feel it is too much value, especially in youth, and some Canucks think it's too much quantity versus quality, especially for improving our roster this (next) year.

We're not great trading partners, but we're still trying at least.

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12-08-2012, 01:25 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgan Gardiner View Post
Nazem Kadri
Tyler Bozak
Jesse Blacker
3rd Rounder

In my opinion, it goes Finn > Blacker > Percy.

All three are Toronto-area boys.
My rational for the

- Nazwm Kadri
- Tyler Bozak
- Matt Frattin
- Matt Finn

Proposal, was working off of the original "Gillis demand" (Gardiner, 5th overall, Bozak, Frattin)
And downgrading the package to remove pieces people would consider "untouchable".

So downgrade Gardiner to Kadri, and Rielly (5th overall) to Finn (35th overall).

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:25 AM
  #98
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Grabovski, Frattin, Finn and a first

For

Luongo and Raymond


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Old
12-08-2012, 01:31 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuck This View Post
Grabovski, Frattin, Finn and a first

For

Luongo and Raymond

Doubt it Grabovski is a very key player on the Leafs. Does not make sense for Canucks 5.5 mil behind Sedin and Kesler is foolish.

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:51 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
While I would still do this, seems like a lot of players to trade for just one. Maybe send another player back from Vancouver and it would seem more balanced. IMO value is pretty decent, just volume a bit off.
What were you thinking in sending a player back? If value is good then we need to upgrade a piece in order for us to send someone. I think Raymond would be the player we would send the other way. In this case salary might be an issue for you because you are taking Luongo and Raymond, we can add Lombardi as a cap dump to our takings. By adding Raymond and taking cap dump value has become unbalanced. So I suggest swapping Kulemin for Bozak. This way you preserve stronger center depth and realistically Bozak is more valuable currently than Kulemin because he fills a bigger need (top 6 C). Also Raymond fills Kulemin's 3rd line winger role and leaves no holes, unlike taking Bozak which may leave hole in top 6 C. Vancouver takes 6.3 million in salary and Toronto takes 7.5 million. Only a net 1.2 million on books compared to 3.8 million in previous offer. I know that Kulemin is a piece that you did want to move with Kadri, but if you look at what we did with adding value and cap dump to deal it balances. Also team looks more complete.

Previous Agreed Offer

Vancouver
Bozak 1.5
Kadri
Colbourne
Blacker

Toronto
Luongo 5.3

5.3-1.5= net 3.8mil extra for Toronto

Lupul - Grabovski - Kessel
JVR - Connolly - MacArthur
Kulemin - Lombardi - Frattin
Steckel - Mclement - Brown

Gardiner - Phaneuf
Gunnarson - Liles
Holzer - Komasarek
(Reilly if called up)

Luongo
Reimer

New Offer

Changes:
Swap Bozak for Kulemin
Add Lombardi
Add Raymond

Value
Kulemin = Bozak + Raymond - Lombardi (remember when you subtract negative it becomes a positive)

Vancouver
Lombardi 3.5
Kulemin 2.8
Kadri
Colbourne
Blacker
6.3

Toronto
Luongo 5.3
Raymond 2.275
7.5

7.5-6.3=1.2 net difference for Toronto

New offer has savings of 3.8-1.2= 2.6milion cap space

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
JVR - Grabovski - MacArthur
Raymond - Connolly - Frattin
Steckel - Mclement - Brown

Gardiner - Phaneuf
Gunnarson - Liles
Holzer - Komasarek
(Reilly if called up)

Luongo
Reimer

Pretty solid lineup.


Last edited by Numbers: 12-08-2012 at 02:21 AM.
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