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NHL Lockout XXIV: Oi! Get your filthy hands off my desert!

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Old
12-08-2012, 02:09 AM
  #76
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So has there been any talk about when the next meetings will be

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12-08-2012, 02:13 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by saskriders View Post
So has there been any talk about when the next meetings will be
No the only thing that has been said from either side was when the NHL said they were going to hold off on cancelling more games for a bit to give the players some time to respond.

My guess would be the NHL still has that offer out there for another week maybe until they start pulling things out.

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12-08-2012, 02:13 AM
  #78
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Donald Fehr is a piece of garbage who has no care in the world about the sport of hockey, he only cares about himself. It goes to show the intelligence level of the players to bring him in to lead them.

Best part is, if you told him the longer this goes on the less he gets paid, we'd have a deal done within hours.
Fehr isn't taking salary during the lockout. Furthermore, he took an eleven million dollar retirement package from the MLBPA which was well-deserved; he's not worried about where his next box of Kraft Dinner is coming from.

I will be very happy to be proven wrong in my assessment that Mr. Fehr is more interested in litigation with the NHL than negotiation, but that's still a few kicks of the can down the road...

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12-08-2012, 02:28 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
No the only thing that has been said from either side was when the NHL said they were going to hold off on cancelling more games for a bit to give the players some time to respond.

My guess would be the NHL still has that offer out there for another week maybe until they start pulling things out.
Agreed, I say next cancellation comes late next week.

They'll let the PA think this over the weekend, start communication sunday or so and then we'll see what happens from there.

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12-08-2012, 02:28 AM
  #80
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The only positive I can offer is this, whether the CBA be 8 years, 6 years, or 10 years, this is definitely the final CBA for Donald Fehr. Not sure about Steve's age, but I would assume he would be next in line if he's young enough. (But keep in mind, whether next in line is S.Fehr or someone else, they are definetly teaching someone behind the scenes to be the next leader, and will likely be a hard ass under Fehr's wings.)

And it is probably the last one for Bettman too, but it depends on the length. Anything less than 8 years and I think he'll return.. Anything more, then I think you will see Bill Daly as next commish. Who seems to be a more level headed negotiator.


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12-08-2012, 02:31 AM
  #81
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Agreed, I say next cancellation comes late next week.

They'll let the PA think this over the weekend, start communication sunday or so and then we'll see what happens from there.
I think that if there is no communication from the PA to the league by Tuesday, games get cancelled Wednesday. If communication is made before Tuesday, but no negotiations are planned, they get cancelled Wednesday. If negotiations get planned, then they hold off until the last second, which I would assume would be the 13th

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12-08-2012, 02:31 AM
  #82
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Every "last, final offer" has been bettered by another "last, final offer". The players are not being "brainwashed", the owners are showing them that Fehr is right.
No offer has been better than the last, all things considered.

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12-08-2012, 02:34 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
The only positive I can offer is this, whether the CBA be 8 years, 6 years, or 10 years, this is definitely the final CBA for Donald Fehr. Not sure about Steve's age, but I would assume he would be next in line if he's young enough. (But keep in mind, whether next in line is S.Fehr or someone else, they are definetly teaching someone behind the scenes to be the next leader, and will likely be a hard ass under Fehr's wings.)

And it is probably the last one for Bettman too, but it depends on the length. Anything less than 8 years and I think its his last. Anything more, then I think you will see Bill Daly as next commish. Who seems to be a more level headed negotiator.
I think I read that Donald is four years older than Steve...so if it's like that then Steve is older than Donald now when next CBA ends.

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12-08-2012, 02:35 AM
  #84
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Every "last, final offer" has been bettered by another "last, final offer". The players are not being "brainwashed", the owners are showing them that Fehr is right.
LeBrun said this on TSN, but if the owners are saying Fehr needs out of negotiations or its a deal breaker, then that means he is doing exactly what they want him to do. When they don't want him in the room, he's keeping the owners on their toes. Which is exactly why they want him in there. Fehr isn't playing the players, Fehr is playing the owners. They know it too, that's why they wanted this Owners and Players only thing, and were alot nicer in giving up concessions to the players to try to get it done so they didn't have to deal with Fehr again.. When it wasn't done and they said Fehr was coming back in, well, the rest is history and they all became hardliners again. Not saying the talks didn't break down without Fehr in the room, they obviously were starting to, but the owners also were more willing to stay and fight through it then when Fehr was there.

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12-08-2012, 02:35 AM
  #85
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Can anyone confirm if the last PA counter proposal contained the leagues linkage or that Hybrid linkage the union offered previously?
Good question.
Daly and Bettman would've brought it up for sure and they didn't so the players from my understanding agreed to the linkage i believe.

The thing is the owners don't know what else is just a stall tactic "need" in the PA's latest demands.

I'd assume it's the cap compliance buyouts and escrow limits. Two things Daly said are non-starters for them just like delinkage.

So if i'm a player i'd want to come back to the table giving the league the 10/8 yr CBA, get my make whole with the leagues mechanism for the transition(no buyouts/escrow limits) and ask for a few years tacked on contract limits. A deal would be done within hours if that happened.

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12-08-2012, 02:36 AM
  #86
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I think I read that Donald is four years older than Steve...so if it's like that then Steve is older than Donald now when next CBA ends.
Thanks for that. I think this is the last rodeo for the Fehr brothers then.

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12-08-2012, 02:37 AM
  #87
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I for one would like to see Bill Daly as our next commissioner. I feel like he would be a suitable candidate. As CBJ stated, this is Bettman and Fehr's last hurrah unless the CBA was like 5 or 6 years then it could be different.

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12-08-2012, 02:43 AM
  #88
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Fehr may be "playing" the owners but he's costing the players big time. Hell, the PA managed to piss off the most moderate of owners this week.

I can see owners in the meeting wanting Fehr out cuz once Fehr comes into the picture, new things start popping up as sticking points. Stalling to get more is fine but the way Fehr is doing it is really pissing off the people who write the checks.

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12-08-2012, 02:46 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by NYRKING30 View Post
I for one would like to see Bill Daly as our next commissioner. I feel like he would be a suitable candidate. As CBJ stated, this is Bettman and Fehr's last hurrah unless the CBA was like 5 or 6 years then it could be different.
I think its the end for the Fehr's regardless of length.

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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Fehr may be "playing" the owners but he's costing the players big time. Hell, the PA managed to piss off the most moderate of owners this week.

I can see owners in the meeting wanting Fehr out cuz once Fehr comes into the picture, new things start popping up as sticking points. Stalling to get more is fine but the way Fehr is doing it is really pissing off the people who write the checks.
And that's exactly what he and the players want.

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12-08-2012, 02:52 AM
  #90
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Part of me doesn't even care about a season now, I just want to see the union get destroyed by the NHL especially morons like Upshall, Prust, and Biz. Mainly Fehr though, I would love to see his little agenda fail miserably, he already ruined baseball now he is on to hockey. The guy is a piece of **** in my opinion, I wish more players would come out against him like Hamrlik.

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12-08-2012, 02:53 AM
  #91
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And that's exactly what he and the players want.
NHL owners are a different animal altogether. They will starve the players if they get mad enough.

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12-08-2012, 02:53 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by NYRKING30 View Post
I for one would like to see Bill Daly as our next commissioner. I feel like he would be a suitable candidate. As CBJ stated, this is Bettman and Fehr's last hurrah unless the CBA was like 5 or 6 years then it could be different.
I agree. To me he has conducted himself with professionalism and a level head, at least from what i've seen of him in the press. It was a thing to behold when he showed a bit of emotion there last night at the press conference. When you see a guy like Daly display anger you know people on the league side of things must really be pissed. In my opinion.

Trust him more than any other leader in this whole sad and nauseating circus side show they call collective bargaining. But what do i know really. Just my impression.

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12-08-2012, 02:53 AM
  #93
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Fehr isn't taking salary during the lockout. Furthermore, he took an eleven million dollar retirement package from the MLBPA which was well-deserved; he's not worried about where his next box of Kraft Dinner is coming from.

I will be very happy to be proven wrong in my assessment that Mr. Fehr is more interested in litigation with the NHL than negotiation, but that's still a few kicks of the can down the road...
Bettman and other NHL execs should have payed Fehr off under the table back in 2010 when they saw where he was headed as the leader of the NHLPA. My guess is if they offered him 2-3 million to turn down the players motion and walk off keeping his mouth shut as to why he'd have 100% done it....I don't think he's a man of principle that he'd have refused the money. Bettman would not even have had to be involved, the league could have used someone lower down as the guy to take the fall if god forbid Fehr did rat them out.

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12-08-2012, 03:50 AM
  #94
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http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...adler-reports/

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12-08-2012, 04:07 AM
  #95
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I love how in that article the comments are calling the guy a Bettman hack and such.

A good union leadership should WELCOME a challenge. They should be ready, willing and ABLE to answer hard questions. Not just 'oh, trust us'.

I think most of the guys on twitter are the ones willing to regurgitate PR they've been fed.

But honestly, if you were an NHLPA member right now - you would have complete trust in Fehr? Would you look around, read the media reports and think that everything is fine and your sacrifice (and make no mistake, the players have already and will continue to sacrifice in this negotiation regardless of whether it's right or wrong) will definitely help you recoup lost salary AND benefit future generations.

Personally, if I was an NHL player I'd be mad as hell. At the league AND my own union.

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12-08-2012, 04:12 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
In regards to the clownfest that was yesterday, both parties are at fault here.

First, it's Fehr, constantly showing up late, presenting the same offer, starting with de-liked BS proposals. Brainwashing his players into thinking that they're going to get a better deal if they wait it out. It wasn't a coincidence that as soon as Fehr entered the room again, the train derailed, and everything spun out of control.



I'm surprised people view this as a "clownfest". This is the essence of negotiating. It's akin to a war.



Fehr is a master negotiator. So is Bettman. In fact, the way I view this is that Bettman attempted to trap Fehr but couldn't do it all the way, which frustrated Gary. Fehr having a presser prior to the NHL's rejection (expected IMO) saved his skin IMO. It was a very cunning maneuver on his part. He painted optimism to show his constituents that he's willing to deal, while Bettman and the NHL did everything they could to paint him doing otherwise.



Something you said about Fehr reminded me of Musashi (geek out a bit here). Miyamoto Musashi would show up to duels late on purpose. He would taunt but never get angered. There was no frustration... which in turn incited frustration. Lastly, he would spread innuendo long prior to his actual duels so as to "set the table" and then totally change the game at the last minute, defying expectations. Fehr is doing all of this --> And it's getting to the owners. They are very weary of him now. So much so that they will try to get deals done in his absence - and make those deals contingent on is prolonged absence (as Hainsey intimated).



Fehr is going to push the NHL to the brink (mid January). And if the NHL is stupid enough to go past that stage without budging on contract limits, they're in for world of hurt beyond that point... When the PA decertifies.

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12-08-2012, 04:22 AM
  #97
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I've been trying to figure out how this situation is likely to turn out. To do so I've been trying to establish what each party's real motivations are. Perhaps I'm naive but here are some of my initial thoughts.


I think the players are, essentially, motivated by money here. But they also want to protect their rights - but protecting their rights is largely about protecting future money. So it's about money.

I think Fehr's motivation is regarding reputation. Sure, he will make some money from this, but I think it's mainly about reputation, or respect, or power, or whatever you want to call it. I'm guessing he also cares somewhat about the players' rights, but mostly he wants to cement his reputation.

I'm not sure exactly what Gary is motivated by, other than power. But as far as I know he is mainly just the voice for the owners. (They pay his salary, yes?)

The NHL owners are motivated by what all owners are motivated by, money and control. I kind of think they really don't care about the money here however. I think their entire motivation is absorbing all the power in the owner-worker relationship. That's what owners typically do, and from the NHL owners' actions thus far, that is what they seem to be trying to do.



If I'm in the ballpark with my guesses here, it doesn't look good for hockey this year, to me. What is the owners' motivation for caving in at all? They don't care about money, they are filthy rich, and they make relatively little from sports franchises. They certainly don't care about watching hockey. As for the players, they don't want to make a deal that takes away money from them, and thus far, every proposed deal takes away money - it's just a matter of how much. They might be reaching the tipping point where they say '**** it, screw the NHL, we can play elsewhere'. And with Fehr banding them all together... if anyone could pull off something like that, Fehr seems like the guy.

Which could mean no hockey this year. And what would change next year? Maybe no NHL next year, or the year after...


Of course I'm considering the most extreme possibilities. But what do you guys think?

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12-08-2012, 04:33 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
I've been trying to figure out how this situation is likely to turn out. To do so I've been trying to establish what each party's real motivations are. Perhaps I'm naive but here are some of my initial thoughts.


I think the players are, essentially, motivated by money here. But they also want to protect their rights - but protecting their rights is largely about protecting future money. So it's about money.

I think Fehr's motivation is regarding reputation. Sure, he will make some money from this, but I think it's mainly about reputation, or respect, or power, or whatever you want to call it. I'm guessing he also cares somewhat about the players' rights, but mostly he wants to cement his reputation.

I'm not sure exactly what Gary is motivated by, other than power. But as far as I know he is mainly just the voice for the owners. (They pay his salary, yes?)

The NHL owners are motivated by what all owners are motivated by, money and control. I kind of think they really don't care about the money here however. I think their entire motivation is absorbing all the power in the owner-worker relationship. That's what owners typically do, and from the NHL owners' actions thus far, that is what they seem to be trying to do.



If I'm in the ballpark with my guesses here, it doesn't look good for hockey this year, to me. What is the owners' motivation for caving in at all? They don't care about money, they are filthy rich, and they make relatively little from sports franchises. They certainly don't care about watching hockey. As for the players, they don't want to make a deal that takes away money from them, and thus far, every proposed deal takes away money - it's just a matter of how much. They might be reaching the tipping point where they say '**** it, screw the NHL, we can play elsewhere'. And with Fehr banding them all together... if anyone could pull off something like that, Fehr seems like the guy.

Which could mean no hockey this year. And what would change next year? Maybe no NHL next year, or the year after...


Of course I'm considering the most extreme possibilities. But what do you guys think?



The extreme possibility is up to the owners at this point. Fehr will wait until the owners reach their drop dead date and push for the best deal possible then. If the owners acquiesce, we have a season. If they don't... we have decertification and a cancelled season.


It's clear at this point that Fehr's end game, should everything go awry, is decertification. Both parties know this. So it's up to the owners to first cancel the season, if they so choose, to then allow Fehr to push the union to decertify. In other words, Fehr wont' decertify until the season is cancelled.



So at the mark where only a 48 game season is viable, then we'll find out how much the owners are willing to really give up. It's sad, but I think this is where things are going. Fehr won't deal until this pressure point is applied.

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12-08-2012, 05:03 AM
  #99
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The extreme possibility is up to the owners at this point. Fehr will wait until the owners reach their drop dead date and push for the best deal possible then. If the owners acquiesce, we have a season. If they don't... we have decertification and a cancelled season.


It's clear at this point that Fehr's end game, should everything go awry, is decertification. Both parties know this. So it's up to the owners to first cancel the season, if they so choose, to then allow Fehr to push the union to decertify. In other words, Fehr wont' decertify until the season is cancelled.



So at the mark where only a 48 game season is viable, then we'll find out how much the owners are willing to really give up. It's sad, but I think this is where things are going. Fehr won't deal until this pressure point is applied.
Interesting. That all makes sense. So in your opinion - in a worst-case scenario - is it possible that the NHL could shut down for multiple seasons?

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12-08-2012, 05:18 AM
  #100
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Interesting. That all makes sense. So in your opinion - in a worst-case scenario - is it possible that the NHL could shut down for multiple seasons?



For one season yes, but after that point it depends on how long the decertification process takes. The absolute worst case is to have decertification extend on into the next season while both parties are unwilling to settle.


Fehr has to gauge when the "actual" drop dead date is. If he can do that, he can leverage his position to try and extract that last little bit from the owners (pushing contract limits from 5 years to 7 years - which essentially closes the loophole to have BDCs). That's the final thing he needs before he signs off IMO.

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