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Old
12-08-2012, 01:57 AM
  #101
LEAFANFORLIFE23
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
All I know is Samjam reported it too, and his hit ratio on this so far is 0. I feel as safe saying it's Millard throwing darts at a board covered in names and picking what he hits after samjam got a hold of it, just like our buddy Eklund. I don't trust Millard much myself, but I'd put more stock in to it if it wasn't backed up by someone...so ridiculous
I read it he didn't back it up so much as steal it

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Old
12-08-2012, 02:01 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
If your roster had:

Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
JVR-Grabo-Macarthur

As a top-6, that's really not too shabby. And with youngguys like Frattin, Ashton, and Biggs coming through the ranks to provide solid depth in your bottom-6, while the number 1 C spot is yet to be filled(although this year's UFA crop looks very intriguing-Getzlaf, Zajac, Weiss[Toronto boy]), it's still a pretty solid group.

I'm fine with that condition on the pick. If I were picky I'd say either top-10 or it becomes a 2nd, or on playoffs or it becomes a 1st the next year the Leafs make the playoffs, but imo there's no way the Leafs with Luongo miss the playoffs, so it doesn't matter to me all that much.
you missed roy in that group

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Old
12-08-2012, 02:03 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Ideally I'd do something like Kulemin + Kadri + 1st conditional on the Leafs making the playoffs for Luongo + Raymond, or something similar to that.

I mean, if all of Gardiner, JVR, Lupul, Phaneuf, Grabovski, are all off the table, then there's only so far I personally would bend.
Why bother? Raymond scored at a better rate than Kulemin last year (same points per game, more goals per game) while playing a similar level of defensive game and we want him on the 4th line.

I don't want to trade Luongo for basically Kadri and a 1st that depends on everything continuing to go right for the Leafs on the offensive side. Leaf fans are high on their team's potential to make the playoffs because their two leading scorers put up 20 more points each than most expected last year, I think it might happen but I wouldn't be willing to bet on it.

IMO that's not even close to close.

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Old
12-08-2012, 02:17 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
All I said is if no one meets Gillis' price, he will move Schneider instead of going with both. I think that it is far more likely someone does end up offering a deal he likes. But he is not going to be forced to trade him for something that does not help us, and I think he would, and should, deal Schneider if no such offer exists.
I absolutely agree. With Lack waiting in the wings, it makes more sense to move Schneider and then move lack to back up.

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12-08-2012, 02:22 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
I absolutely agree. With Lack waiting in the wings, it makes more sense to move Schneider and then move lack to back up.
If we could move Schneider for more immediate help I wouldn't hesitate to deal him. Our window is closing, and we have to win now. That being said I don't see that happening.

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12-08-2012, 02:26 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
If your roster had:

Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
JVR-Grabo-Macarthur

As a top-6, that's really not too shabby. And with youngguys like Frattin, Ashton, and Biggs coming through the ranks to provide solid depth in your bottom-6, while the number 1 C spot is yet to be filled(although this year's UFA crop looks very intriguing-Getzlaf, Zajac, Weiss[Toronto boy]), it's still a pretty solid group.

I'm fine with that condition on the pick. If I were picky I'd say either top-10 or it becomes a 2nd, or on playoffs or it becomes a 1st the next year the Leafs make the playoffs, but imo there's no way the Leafs with Luongo miss the playoffs, so it doesn't matter to me all that much.
Thing is with Luongo we move more into win now, and while Frattin, Biggs and to some extent Ashton take some of the heat away from losing Kulemin, they don't do it immediately. Ya I would be fine with that condition, either way I just want to avoid giving up lottery picks.

Overall I would counter with:
Kulemin+1st (top 10 protected) for Lu
(this value is the absolute highest I would go)

Kadri+ Mac/Connonlly/Lombardi/Franson/Bozak + 1st (top 10 protected) for Lu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
There's a pretty big discrepancy between what we've "agreed" upon as a group and that little deal there. We're still no where close enough to build a majority on either side.

Kulemin and Raymond, Canucks are calling a wash. I feel Kulemin supplies more of what we need in a 3rd liner or fringe second liner, but that it's not enough of an improvement to merit either of their inclusions. At least that was my read.

We're running with the rumour of Kadri and Bozak as inclusions, mostly because I feel we're so bored on both sides.

Kulemin+one of them just...doesn't seem anywhere close. Unless the plus was significant, I don't think it will fly as a return.

I mean, one offer that LL or Marty123 had was Lupul+conditional first (on playoffs). I liked that, but Canucks fans don't want a UFA as the meat and potatoes of the deal, and the Leafs fans felt that Luongo wasn't worth a winger thats a ppg with their team and playing a first line role.

The Bozak/Kadri/Frattin/Finn offer is another favorite, but many Leafs fans feel it is too much value, especially in youth, and some Canucks think it's too much quantity versus quality, especially for improving our roster this (next) year.

We're not great trading partners, but we're still trying at least.
Firstly when I said "we agreed to a deal" I was talking about specifically Vankiller Whale and I not Canuck fans in general, which obviously cannot be done.

I agree that Leafs and Canucks are not the best trading partners, but I think realistically if Luongo is going to move in the immediate (he doesn't have to move right now though) it will be to Toronto since I think we are the only real option AT THIS POINT. Who knows what would happen if Gillis waits.

Frattin is doing pretty well right now in the Marlies, and Finn to many Leaf fans and Burke was a huge steal, making them what I see as non-starters.

Deal wise it seems to depend on each person you talk with, so hard to say exactly what Gillis will be expecting. I think at the end of the day the centre piece of the deal will be cap space and some decent prospects/roster players and a pick if they are dealing with Toronto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
What were you thinking in sending a player back? If value is good then we need to upgrade a piece in order for us to send someone. I think Raymond would be the player we would send the other way. In this case salary might be an issue for you because you are taking Luongo and Raymond, we can add Lombardi as a cap dump to our takings. By adding Raymond and taking cap dump value has become unbalanced. So I suggest swapping Kulemin for Bozak. This way you preserve stronger center depth and realistically Bozak is more valuable currently than Kulemin because he fills a bigger need (top 6 C). Also Raymond fills Kulemin's 3rd line winger role and leaves no holes, unlike taking Bozak which may leave hole in top 6 C. Vancouver takes 6.3 million in salary and Toronto takes 7.5 million. Only a net 1.2 million on books compared to 3.8 million in previous offer. I know that Kulemin is a piece that you did want to move with Kadri, but if you look at what we did with adding value and cap dump to deal it balances. Also team looks more complete.

New Offer

Changes:
Swap Bozak for Kulemin
Add Lombardi
Add Raymond

Vancouver
Lombardi 3.5
Kulemin 2.8
Kadri
Colbourne
Blacker
6.3

Toronto
Luongo 5.3
Raymond 2.275
7.5

7.5-6.3=1.2 net difference for Toronto

New offer has savings of 3.8-1.2= 2.6milion cap space

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
JVR - Grabovski - MacArthur
Raymond - Connolly - Frattin
Steckel - Mclement - Brown

Gardiner - Phaneuf
Gunnarson - Liles
Holzer - Komasarek
(Reilly if called up)

Luongo
Reimer

Pretty solid lineup.
By adding a player I meant more to balance contract limits and nothing significant, aka a dump/mid level prospect.

Personally though that deal is a bit too high for my liking since like I probably wouldn't do Kadri+Kulemin in the same deal.

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Old
12-08-2012, 02:31 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
Thing is with Luongo we move more into win now, and while Frattin, Biggs and to some extent Ashton take some of the heat away from losing Kulemin, they don't do it immediately. Ya I would be fine with that condition, either way I just want to avoid giving up lottery picks.

Overall I would counter with:
Kulemin+1st (top 10 protected) for Lu
(this value is the absolute highest I would go)

Kadri+ Mac/Connonlly/Lombardi/Franson/Bozak + 1st (top 10 protected) for Lu


Firstly when I said "we agreed to a deal" I was talking about specifically Vankiller Whale and I not Canuck fans in general, which obviously cannot be done.

I agree that Leafs and Canucks are not the best trading partners, but I think realistically if Luongo is going to move in the immediate (he doesn't have to move right now though) it will be to Toronto since I think we are the only real option AT THIS POINT. Who knows what would happen if Gillis waits.

Frattin is doing pretty well right now in the Marlies, and Finn to many Leaf fans and Burke was a huge steal, making them what I see as non-starters.

Deal wise it seems to depend on each person you talk with, so hard to say exactly what Gillis will be expecting. I think at the end of the day the centre piece of the deal will be cap space and some decent prospects/roster players and a pick if they are dealing with Toronto.


By adding a player I meant more to balance contract limits and nothing significant, aka a dump/mid level prospect.

Personally though that deal is a bit too high for my liking since like I probably wouldn't do Kadri+Kulemin in the same deal.
Fair enough, but did you read my valuation explanation and included cap savings on new offer. Don't you think the second lineup is stronger and deeper? Also costs less..... I added more to my post after you quoted, check it out you might be pleasantly surprised. Re-quote maybe.

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Old
12-08-2012, 02:39 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Fair enough, but did you read my valuation explanation and included cap savings on new offer. Don't you think the second lineup is stronger and deeper? Also costs less..... I added more to my post after you quoted, check it out you might be pleasantly surprised. Re-quote maybe.
Cap wise it is good, but we are losing Lombardi to UFA next season anyway, the loss would come from Kulemin who is pretty cheap as is.

I think Kulemin is the type of guy we will need in the playoffs, and considering we have so few of them it seems foolish to trade him to get a player who would probably get us to the playoffs, especially alongside our top forward prospect. Also by saying this no disrespect to Luongo, I just think it makes more sense to trade only one of them if needed, not both.

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Old
12-08-2012, 02:48 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
Cap wise it is good, but we are losing Lombardi to UFA next season anyway, the loss would come from Kulemin who is pretty cheap as is.

I think Kulemin is the type of guy we will need in the playoffs, and considering we have so few of them it seems foolish to trade him to get a player who would probably get us to the playoffs, especially alongside our top forward prospect. Also by saying this no disrespect to Luongo, I just think it makes more sense to trade only one of them if needed, not both.
Don't think the center depth with Bozak could come in handy in playoffs? In second scenario you have a player replacing Kulemin who has similar upside, but different style of play. While first offer no one replaces Bozak. Just curious, but you have been quite fair in all our dealings, so either way I'm happy to be honest.

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Old
12-08-2012, 02:52 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Don't think the center depth with Bozak could come in handy in playoffs? In second scenario you have a player replacing Kulemin who has similar upside, but different style of play. While first offer no one replaces Bozak. Just curious, but you have been quite fair in all our dealings, so either way I'm happy to be honest.
Truth is we have loads of centre depth, just no legit top 6 centres outside Grabovski. Connolly, Lombardi, McClement, Steckel, Bozak. While I would rather trade one of the other centres, Bozak provides more value than the others, and hopefully also forces Burke to get that top line centre. Connolly could play top line in place of a real number one centre. The point still stands though we are soft as butter, and trading Kulemin only makes that problem worse.

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Old
12-08-2012, 03:23 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
Truth is we have loads of centre depth, just no legit top 6 centres outside Grabovski. Connolly, Lombardi, McClement, Steckel, Bozak. While I would rather trade one of the other centres, Bozak provides more value than the others, and hopefully also forces Burke to get that top line centre. Connolly could play top line in place of a real number one centre. The point still stands though we are soft as butter, and trading Kulemin only makes that problem worse.


I'm surprised Connolly has been as poor as he has been. In Buffalo, Ruff would consistently go to him as an option. He was a "go to" player for him. But in TO, it just seems that he has fell off.



Do you think he can rebound under Carlyle?

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Old
12-08-2012, 04:42 AM
  #112
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I honestly don't think losing kadri is a huge loss. He is a talented prospect but with the sedins kesler booth burrows ect he won't get the ice time neccessary to develop making his loss a non factor

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12-08-2012, 04:56 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Halak also had only played 101 regular season games...
you mean Halak was younger and had more game left in him for the future to give to his new team than Luongo have?

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Old
12-08-2012, 06:07 AM
  #114
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Bozak
Kadri
Colbourne/Frattin
2nd

Keep Finn I understand. Nice pick.
So.. Bozak,Kadri,Colborne and a 2nd.

It's a go from me.

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12-08-2012, 06:50 AM
  #115
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So.. Bozak,Kadri,Colborne and a 2nd.

It's a go from me.
me to

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12-08-2012, 07:01 AM
  #116
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How does Bozak, MacArthur, Colborne/Ashton and 3rd sound?

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12-08-2012, 07:29 AM
  #117
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How does Bozak, MacArthur, Colborne/Ashton and 3rd sound?
Well....it sounds great to me, but it won't be near enough to get Van fans on board. They have no use for Mac.

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12-08-2012, 07:43 AM
  #118
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Hey LL, who do you hold in higher regard, Frattin or Biggs?

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Old
12-08-2012, 07:47 AM
  #119
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Hey LL, who do you hold in higher regard, Frattin or Biggs?
I will answer your question with a disclaimer (don't want to move either). I value Frattin more. I feel he had the hands and skating to go with playing physical. Biggs will be a bigger banger with less offensive upside. Just my opinion though.

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12-08-2012, 07:51 AM
  #120
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Cool, thanks.

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12-08-2012, 08:57 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So.. Bozak,Kadri,Colborne and a 2nd.

It's a go from me.
Since Van is taking Colbourne instead of Frattin, would you swap that 2nd for Blacker? I obviously would like Finn more, but I know how high many leaf fans are on him. A little compromise.

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12-08-2012, 09:07 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
So.. Bozak,Kadri,Colborne and a 2nd.

It's a go from me.
Take out Tyler Bozak and Nazem Kadri and that is most likely Roberto's value.

The amount of risk in taking that contract is ridiculous when you consider both Roberto's age and by the time the NHL returns, he'll more than likely have been out of hockey for a year or more. Who knows if he'll have a monstrous decline that his play last spring hinted at.

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12-08-2012, 09:11 AM
  #123
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Take out Tyler Bozak and Nazem Kadri and that is most likely Roberto's value.

The amount of risk in taking that contract is ridiculous when you consider both Roberto's age and by the time the NHL returns, he'll more than likely have been out of hockey for a year or more. Who knows if he'll have a monstrous decline that his play last spring hinted at.
Thanks for your opinion

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:16 AM
  #124
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Since Van is taking Colbourne instead of Frattin, would you swap that 2nd for Blacker? I obviously would like Finn more, but I know how high many leaf fans are on him. A little compromise.
You guys are making it tough, thats our 1C and 3 good pieces out of our pool. This is a one time deal (and because i just watched the rammstein vid)...ok, i'll do it.

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12-08-2012, 09:17 AM
  #125
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leaf fan here .. been following the thread but haven't posted. I think a lot of these are quite close in value, but every time i see Kulemin's name on the board I want to barf.

Kadri
McArthur
Blacker
2nd

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