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Lockout Thread #3: The Rollercoaster Continues...

View Poll Results: When will the lockout end?
December 15-31st,2012 6 19.35%
January 2013 13 41.94%
September 2013 6 19.35%
October 2013-December 2013 2 6.45%
January 2014 0 0%
September 2014 0 0%
October 2014-January 2015 0 0%
NHL is gone forever 4 12.90%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:20 PM
  #726
Frank the Tank
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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
Look at a team like Edmonton though. Where season ticket holders live as far away as Fort Chip. Where they need to actually take a plane to get to the game when they go. 41 games per season, and there is always someone sitting in those seats.

Same with a business my mom used to work for, they had season tickets as well, and every game, someone from Fort Mac was in those seats, and the people who had the seats next to those who I got to know fairly well, were from Red Deer. Half the time they couldn't even get there until the second period because of work, but they still showed up for almost every game.
As one moves to 81 home games it get even more difficult to attend everyone when not living in the metropolitan area of a sports team. I thick a fair comparison is the Packers to the Brewers attendance, where the Packers have a massive season ticket waiting list and the Brewers are middle of the pack for MLB attendance. Once again, the salary cap has impact, but let's not ignore the other factors that enable the Green Bay Packers to thrive in such a small market.

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12-07-2012, 05:27 PM
  #727
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
As one moves to 81 home games it get even more difficult to attend everyone when not living in the metropolitan area of a sports team. I thick a fair comparison is the Packers to the Brewers attendance, where the Packers have a massive season ticket waiting list and the Brewers are middle of the pack for MLB attendance. Once again, the salary cap has impact, but let's not ignore the other factors that enable the Green Bay Packers to thrive in such a small market.
History also has ALOT to do with it. Green Bay is NFL football as much as the Cowboys or Giants. Their historic coach is the one the Vince Lombardi trophy is named after and given to the champions.

The Brewers and to be quite honest, most teams in baseball don't have that much history. When you think baseball history you think the Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox, Phillies, Dodgers and Giants. And it's very obvious that noone cares about the teams like the Brewers or the Pirates or the Padres. I remember never seeing the Padres in a national broadcast game when I was a kid, even though they had Tony Gwynn, one of the best in the game playing for them.

The amount of games also does add stress to it for sure, but it has a lot to do with how the team is perceived in the city in general. The Leafs haven't won crap in nearly 70 years, the Cubbies in 100, and they still fill their stadiums. You need to make people feel like they are a part of something if you want them to stay around in the good times and the bad. Otherwise they only care about you when you are the pretty girl on the block.

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Old
12-07-2012, 06:05 PM
  #728
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Jadedog who is arguing what is best for fans?? I'd do cartwheels if the league got a 20 million hard cap and non-guaranteed contracts.

I'm arguing from a player point of view, MLB is the best model from a player perspective, healthy teams and well paid players + labour peace.

And the luxury tax which props up smaller teams from the pockets of the rich franchises was won from a long hard battle by the union in rejecting a hard cap, so you are completly wrong on all accounts

How as an NHL player could you not look at the MLB and then not take the advice and guidance of Don Fehr?
oh, if you're arguing from a players POV then, yeah, of course MLB is the best... sorry, i thought you were talking about what was best for the league or its fans

the MLB system would unquestionably be the worst system for NHL fans though, and its not even close

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:14 PM
  #729
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@DougMaclean: Hearing from alot of people that the DEAL will be made.Don has to fight for a bit more before its over and Gary has to give a bit.
@JSportsnet: The NHL and the NHLPA will not meet this weekend. They might talk. They will not meet.

Despite all of yesterdays drama and gary bettman's face getting really red, the fact is the sides got even closer together i know gb said everything is off the table but anything taken off the table can very easily make it's way back on the table. I'm not saying we're on the verge of a deal but all hope is most certainly not lost

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12-07-2012, 07:18 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
No

And I think you can make a fair argument about competitve balance in the MLB

My argument is against fans who are so aghast that players would A) hire and listen to Fehr B) not want to sign an NFL type deal C) want to wait for a better deal to be presented

Almost everything the owners and players have done in this negotiations makes perfect sense when you consider what's being negotiated and the ecomomics of the deals on the table
Actually, I disagree. It makes sense if you consider hockey players as a whole. It makes some sense for current hockey players who expect to have a further 5 year career (maybe 100-150?).

It makes no sense for 1/2 the players who will play would have played this yar in the NHL and thats all.

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:18 PM
  #731
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@DougMaclean: Hearing from alot of people that the DEAL will be made.Don has to fight for a bit more before its over and Gary has to give a bit.
@JSportsnet: The NHL and the NHLPA will not meet this weekend. They might talk. They will not meet.

Despite all of yesterdays drama and gary bettman's face getting really red, the fact is the sides got even closer together i know gb said everything is off the table but anything taken off the table can very easily make it's way back on the table. I'm not saying we're on the verge of a deal but all hope is most certainly not lost
He's declared this and thrown "This is our final offer," around several times during this.... process.

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Old
12-07-2012, 07:39 PM
  #732
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Originally Posted by 402 View Post
@DougMaclean: Hearing from alot of people that the DEAL will be made.Don has to fight for a bit more before its over and Gary has to give a bit.
@JSportsnet: The NHL and the NHLPA will not meet this weekend. They might talk. They will not meet.

Despite all of yesterdays drama and gary bettman's face getting really red, the fact is the sides got even closer together i know gb said everything is off the table but anything taken off the table can very easily make it's way back on the table. I'm not saying we're on the verge of a deal but all hope is most certainly not lost
The NHLPA already had members wanting to push a vote on the NHL's last offer, their members are starting to get to the point where they have a ton to lose if it goes any further.

Their unity was already starting to fray as the realities of not being paid and losing out on large amounts of money they will never get back starts to sink in - all for the sake of protecting the small percentage of superstars that make up the league. It's not something that is going to fly forever. Add in the fact that the next step is the cancellation of the season, followed by decertification which will probably cancel next season as well as they get locked up in court, things could end up going downhill very quickly for your middle class NHLer if they don't start making themselves heard, and soon.

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12-07-2012, 07:57 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
He's declared this and thrown "This is our final offer," around several times during this.... process.
Exactly, last time talks broke down he said we gave them our best offer already, some people read to much into what bettman says, its just a PR show he can say whatever he wants in front of media and then do the opposite at the bargaining table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
The NHLPA already had members wanting to push a vote on the NHL's last offer, their members are starting to get to the point where they have a ton to lose if it goes any further.

Their unity was already starting to fray as the realities of not being paid and losing out on large amounts of money they will never get back starts to sink in - all for the sake of protecting the small percentage of superstars that make up the league. It's not something that is going to fly forever. Add in the fact that the next step is the cancellation of the season, followed by decertification which will probably cancel next season as well as they get locked up in court, things could end up going downhill very quickly for your middle class NHLer if they don't start making themselves heard, and soon.
yeah i agree the average salary players need to step up and speak up because there's not much time left i'd say we have a little over a month before a deal must be reached to save 48 games

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12-07-2012, 08:50 PM
  #734
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If there truly are teams struggling for survival, they should try to create some salary sharing rules so that rich teams can take back salary (i.e. poor teams take back cash) in trades. You could set a limit to this money - and it would be outside the cap. Say 3 million annually for every team - 2-3 million that you can either decide to take on salary with OR take back cash from another team in a trade.

Struggling teams would then be compelled to move players for cash rather than for just draft picks at the deadline.

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Old
12-07-2012, 09:30 PM
  #735
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Exactly, last time talks broke down he said we gave them our best offer already, some people read to much into what bettman says, its just a PR show he can say whatever he wants in front of media and then do the opposite at the bargaining table



yeah i agree the average salary players need to step up and speak up because there's not much time left i'd say we have a little over a month before a deal must be reached to save 48 games
To be fair to Bettman, he never made the deal that upped the make whole to 300M. If he's in the room that probaby doesnt happen, but the owners were obviously led to believe if they upped the make whole that the union would agree to there 5 year contract demand.

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Old
12-07-2012, 09:41 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
The NHLPA already had members wanting to push a vote on the NHL's last offer, their members are starting to get to the point where they have a ton to lose if it goes any further.

Their unity was already starting to fray as the realities of not being paid and losing out on large amounts of money they will never get back starts to sink in - all for the sake of protecting the small percentage of superstars that make up the league. It's not something that is going to fly forever. Add in the fact that the next step is the cancellation of the season, followed by decertification which will probably cancel next season as well as they get locked up in court, things could end up going downhill very quickly for your middle class NHLer if they don't start making themselves heard, and soon.
I agree that the player unity is beginning to fall apart a little, but here is another thought.

Besides the actual deal making sense for the players at this time, is there a possibility that people in the NHL and NHLPA are starting to get a sense that the fans are really pissed off right now, with a number of fans throwing their arms in the air and saying **** it, I'm tired of this and will not support the NHL going forward.

I'm sure both the NHL and NHLPA are keeping tabs on the general feeling for the game right now amongst fans via twitter, forums like this, and Blogs....and I don't think that it is a very healthy situation. I've been a fan for over 35 years, and I'm pretty much at the point of telling the NHL/PA to shove it up their collective *****.

Maybe it's just me though.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:14 PM
  #737
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Honestly if I was a fan of a ****** team going nowhere... (I won't name teams but one rhymes with Lames and another with Make Beliefs)... I wouldn't even watch the NHL when/if it came back after all this bs.

Luckily though... I'm a loyal fan of the team that has the brightest and most exciting and promising future of all NHL teams so I have more patience than most fans most likely. I'll be back and I'm sure many of my Oiler fan brethren will as well as we all want to see the young guns play and improve together.

If they toast this season though... I would guess some teams may fold as fan apathy south of the border would be on much higher levels than here in Canada... and I don't blame them one bit.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:31 PM
  #738
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I agree that the player unity is beginning to fall apart a little, but here is another thought.

Besides the actual deal making sense for the players at this time, is there a possibility that people in the NHL and NHLPA are starting to get a sense that the fans are really pissed off right now, with a number of fans throwing their arms in the air and saying **** it, I'm tired of this and will not support the NHL going forward.

I'm sure both the NHL and NHLPA are keeping tabs on the general feeling for the game right now amongst fans via twitter, forums like this, and Blogs....and I don't think that it is a very healthy situation. I've been a fan for over 35 years, and I'm pretty much at the point of telling the NHL/PA to shove it up their collective *****.

Maybe it's just me though.
Don't think any of them believe it, they just look at the last lockout and how well that went afterwards.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:24 PM
  #739
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Josh Rimer ‏@JoshRimerHockey
Jeremy Roenick was just explosive on the Nitecap! Roenick, "Don Fehr better learn to represent the players more responsibly."
Quote:
Josh Rimer ‏@JoshRimerHockey
More Jeremy Roenick, "Don Fehr should be telling the plalyers right now to sign the deal!!"
I agree with the sentiment but Roenick probably wasn't saying this stuff in 04/05.

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:46 PM
  #740
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I agree that the player unity is beginning to fall apart a little, but here is another thought.

Besides the actual deal making sense for the players at this time, is there a possibility that people in the NHL and NHLPA are starting to get a sense that the fans are really pissed off right now, with a number of fans throwing their arms in the air and saying **** it, I'm tired of this and will not support the NHL going forward.

I'm sure both the NHL and NHLPA are keeping tabs on the general feeling for the game right now amongst fans via twitter, forums like this, and Blogs....and I don't think that it is a very healthy situation. I've been a fan for over 35 years, and I'm pretty much at the point of telling the NHL/PA to shove it up their collective *****.

Maybe it's just me though.
Nah

The players don't care what the fans think and never have. They just want what they feel is entitled to them, and they'll just go on condecending to everyone via twitter as usual in the meantime.

The NHL probably views us as marketing groups or shares. Real people that might get upset? Maybe. But it won't stop them from doing what they feel they need to or hurry them along.

Fans don't get a say, and don't have a voice, and neither side is going to worry about us when there is money to fight over - regardless of where that money comes from.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:35 AM
  #741
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Solid post, I know a few think that the players played a shrewd hand and the owners will give in more in a few weeks and we will have a season. I just don't see it. I think the players had a very good chance of getting the most out of some owners willing to give the most. I think Bettman actually went out of his way to really get a deal done by allowing the process to take place. He knew these owners would give more than any other owners. The players blew it. If I was a betting man, I Think the season is lost and the players will sign a worse deal in the summer. I think the owners will take it to heart and will now win the war of attrition. I think this will go back as a idiotic move by the players. I think the owners will stand firm and the players will eventually do what they did last lock out. Which is take a huge hit and lose a year.
Either that or the Union starts to rip itself apart. The league doesnt want to see the union decertify or anything of the like, but believe me they arent afraid to it. Bettman has made each of his CBAs and corresponding SPCs with clauses pertaining to what happens when a CBA expires. There can be no successor CBA if there is no collective bargaining, there can be no collective bargaining without the union and the contracts, as specifically stated need the NHLPA to agree on term before contracts can return from limbo. In fact as agreed by all players when they signed their contracts...their contracts have no value until a new agreement is reached. The real day value of those contracts is waiting for the CBA to state what it is. They arent entitled to anything, because those contracts are 1.st specifically written to be void without a CBA, and 2. are relative to the systemic terms of the succeeding CBA. . They are actually valueless right now; the owners know it, bettman knows it. They are safe. Unlike NBA and NFL players, NHL players have proven they have lots of options and the NHL is no monopoly. Way to go players.

Bettman has responsibilities beyond the players. I dont believe for a second that he works 20 years on something to risk losing all the gains just for his ego. I consider him a moderate but a realist. In his early years i do think he let his ego get in the way but i dont see that anymore. This league was close to the edge of collapse in 04. An experience like that can not only humble someone but also really open the eyes to how many peopl, families...depend on you making the business/enterprise strong.

I am thinking it is 50/50 chance the season is saved but i think it has to happen soon. As i said earlier the offer is off the table for good next weekend IMO. Then both sides basically start their paper work on their solo direction plans.

As i point out... Bettman has proven in the Kelly era that he isnt the problem.

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:27 AM
  #742
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I agree with the sentiment but Roenick probably wasn't saying this stuff in 04/05.
Don't discount him.

Roenick was never one to march in step.

Always outspoken and would sing the non party line. Pretty much as a rule.

I can't think of a player less inclined to follow along.

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12-08-2012, 02:27 AM
  #743
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i know I keep reading, but I no longer remember what watching a hockey is like anymore.

I was thinking about this today.

If the NHL never comes back, that doesn't really matter to me.

I've found other things to keep me busy.

As I've said often, I'm very neutral in this matter now. The longer it goes, the worse it will get. Not just for me, for many people

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12-08-2012, 02:35 AM
  #744
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I get a kick out of the players response.

"They havent given us anything...."

Yes they havent, over the last 3 months. Course the last 6 years have been Christmas every July 1st but they don't take that into account.

Whining losers is what they are, honestly, I hope they take their ball and go home. Then they can finish with this high pay spiral.

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12-08-2012, 02:53 AM
  #745
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I get a kick out of the players response.

"They havent given us anything...."

Yes they havent, over the last 3 months. Course the last 6 years have been Christmas every July 1st but they don't take that into account.

Whining losers is what they are, honestly, I hope they take their ball and go home. Then they can finish with this high pay spiral.
That is probably the biggest thing that gets me. Not one player has even mentioned, that maybe, just maybe, the system has worked well for them. How can some players get 8-9 mill and not once say thanks. Say, yes, I have benifited. It is just plain nuts. Every July 1st every one sits back and goes, wow, did not think that bum would ever get that kind of money. Well, it is time to even things up. Sucks. Get use to it.

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12-08-2012, 03:01 AM
  #746
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Don't discount him.

Roenick was never one to march in step.

Always outspoken and would sing the non party line. Pretty much as a rule.

I can't think of a player less inclined to follow along.
Brett Hull comes to mind

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12-08-2012, 03:03 AM
  #747
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Don't discount him.

Roenick was never one to march in step.

Always outspoken and would sing the non party line. Pretty much as a rule.

I can't think of a player less inclined to follow along.
No, Certianly would not. He always speaks his mind. My guess is he was not one of the players falling in line in 04/05

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12-08-2012, 03:36 AM
  #748
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Brett Hull comes to mind
Sean Avery?

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12-08-2012, 03:54 AM
  #749
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i know I keep reading, but I no longer remember what watching a hockey is like anymore.

I was thinking about this today.

If the NHL never comes back, that doesn't really matter to me.

I've found other things to keep me busy.

As I've said often, I'm very neutral in this matter now. The longer it goes, the worse it will get. Not just for me, for many people
This is a great post, and it is as poignant as all hell. We can sit here and wax economics all we want, but the reality is that the longer this lockout goes, and the more the hapless half-wit player tweets about his plights, the more I realize how ridiculous and absurd I am for funding and supporting such a trivial and silly thing. Why the hell are we paying to watch these fools play a damn sport? You can sit here and say "its ingrained in our culture, blah blah . . ." but that is a terrible reason to support the NHL. Every time a blatant moron like Ryan Whitney or Scotty Upshall qualifies themselves as smarter than me or some of the other intelligent poster on this site, for example, I am reminded of how ****ing foolish I am for supporting these deluded, uneducated, superficial clowns.

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12-08-2012, 04:07 AM
  #750
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This is a great post, and it is as poignant as all hell. We can sit here and wax economics all we want, but the reality is that the longer this lockout goes, and the more the hapless half-wit player tweets about his plights, the more I realize how ridiculous and absurd I am for funding and supporting such a trivial and silly thing. Why the hell are we paying to watch these fools play a damn sport? You can sit here and say "its ingrained in our culture, blah blah . . ." but that is a terrible reason to support the NHL. Every time a blatant moron like Ryan Whitney or Scotty Upshall qualifies themselves as smarter than me or some of the other intelligent poster on this site, for example, I am reminded of how ****ing foolish I am for supporting these deluded, uneducated, superficial clowns.
Good for you but for me there is no other sport that I love more. Not the business but the game. It is ingrained in our culture, that isn't just rhetoric. It is just short of being a religion in this country. It will be back and not even miss a beat in the true north strong and free.

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