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Lockout Signings, Part II

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:32 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
Like it or not, he's about the closest thing we've got at this point. He has arguably been our best player for the past year plus. It would be a tremendous mistake to let negotiations get the best of us here.
I hope so, but if he didn't inform the Avs (which were all really just speculating at this point, so..) I don't see him coming back. Sakic wanted to play with Gretzky, he wasn't trying to spite the team or get a better contract.

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12-08-2012, 01:59 AM
  #402
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Just to clarify, according to Metallurg's official site, O'Reilly doesn't have an out clause like Malkin, Ovechkin, etc. because he doesn't have an NHL contract therefore it can't be made according to KHL regulations (same with Andrei Kostitsyn, though he's UFA, not RFA).

However, if he gets more lucrative deal he has a green light from Metallurg to sign in the NHL ("verbal agreement"). It's been messed up in American media, but "verbal agreement" is what official release mentions. http://www.metallurg.ru/site/news/read/76878/

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12-08-2012, 03:19 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by fedfed View Post
Just to clarify, according to Metallurg's official site, O'Reilly doesn't have an out clause like Malkin, Ovechkin, etc. because he doesn't have an NHL contract therefore it can't be made according to KHL regulations (same with Andrei Kostitsyn, though he's UFA, not RFA).

However, if he gets more lucrative deal he has a green light from Metallurg to sign in the NHL ("verbal agreement"). It's been messed up in American media, but "verbal agreement" is what official release mentions. http://www.metallurg.ru/site/news/read/76878/
And verbal agreement is not legally binding in KHL.

1.Verbal deal is not legally binding in KHL

Quote:
Статья 16. Общие положения
11. Контракт является полным соглашением между сторонами. Устные договоренности не имеют силы. Все изменения в Стандартном Контракте Хоккеиста КХЛ после его регистрации в ЦИБ КХЛ категорически запрещаются.
Quote:
Paragraph 16. Generall Issues
11. Contract (written, standard KHL player contract) is fully agreement among both contractors (player and club). Verbal agreements are not legally binding. No amendments of contract are allowed after registration of contract in KHL CIB (information system of KHL, hope NHL has the same)
2. KHL contract does not include opt out clause

Quote:
Статья 17. Недопустимость особых условий в Стандартном Контракте Хоккеиста КХЛ
2. Запрещается наличие условий относительно досрочного расторжения или приостановления Контрактов в связи с отъездом Игроков в Клубы других хоккейных лиг или федераций.
Quote:
Paragraph 16. Banned conditions of contract
2. It is not allowed to include into contract a opt out condition/clause which means termination of contract in the case if a players signs contract with club of another league or hockey federation.
both here

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12-08-2012, 05:34 AM
  #404
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Out clause in case of a lockout is allowed due to the lockout additional rules (it's even necessary):
Quote:
Контракты с энхаэловцами наши клубы должны заключать на срок до 30 апреля будущего года, то есть до окончания сезона 2012/2013. При этом в контракте обязательно должен быть пункт о его расторжении в одностороннем порядке с момента окончания локаута в НХЛ.
Quote:
Contracts with NHLers should be signed through Apr. 30 of the next year, which means through the end of 2012-13 season. Contract must include a clause about its dissolution unilaterally beginning with the moment when lockout in the NHL ends.
But O'Reilly isn't a subject to these rules because according to this regulations:
Quote:
Положение распространяется на игроков, имеющих действующие контракты с клубами НХЛ, за исключением хоккеистов с двусторонними контрактами, на время локаута отправленными в фарм-клубы.
Quote:
Subject to these regulations are players having current contracts excluding players on the two-way deals who were sent to the affiliate teams during the lockout.
http://www.khl.ru/news/2012/9/11/44188.html
I agree with you that verbal agreement is not legally binding, but that's the way it is according to club's site. They either let him go in accordance to that verbal agreement or he's stuck in Magnitka for two years. And I don't believe it.

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12-08-2012, 06:24 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
There appears to be a different set of laws when it pertains to the NHL/KHL relationship.
Relationships between two leagues are one thing, the laws are another thing. A league like the KHL can decide to respect NHL restricted free agency and contract issues can be settled accordingly via the negotiation path designated in the Memorandum of Understanding between NHL and KHL. However, should the league or the player decide to give the NHL the finger (which I don't think is going to be the case with O'Reilly BTW) then there is nothing the NHL can do about it legally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Do you even know what slavery means?
There are different forms of slavery and some are worse for those who are affected than others. If restricted free agency means you cannot sign with any other NHL club, then it's not slavery, even though it would an illegal restriction of freedom if there was no CBA. If retricted free agency means you cannot sign with any other club in the world, then it's close to slavery. Not the worst form of course because the "slaves" are still well-paid, but close to slavery nevertheless. Maybe that's possible in Russia (I think the KHL claims their RFAs are not allowed to sign anywhere else in the world - a claim that too would be laughed at in North American or European Union courts), but not in the free world.

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12-08-2012, 06:33 AM
  #406
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fedfed

yes, contracts with NHLers who has current NHL contract have out opt clause, but as you wrote, OReilly is another case.

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12-08-2012, 06:36 AM
  #407
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I think the KHL claims their RFAs are not allowed to sign anywhere else in the world - a claim that too would be laughed at in North American or European Union courts)
not true. KHL RFAs are allowed to sign anywhere else in the world

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12-08-2012, 06:39 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
not true. KHL RFAs are allowed to sign anywhere else in the world
Thanks for the correction, good to hear.

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12-08-2012, 06:41 AM
  #409
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Ryan cannot go to Colorado management and get counseled on this situation. They are not permitted to speak with the Org. Reps on any matter other than advising players to speak to their union reps.

As for the deal, Ryan can sign in the KHL and would be committed there if the KHL chooses not to let him go. He has NO VALID NHL contract right now and was not awarded a 2 year deal via arbitration such as the Hudler situation many years ago.

As for the verbal out, the KHL team put that in their to circumvent their own bylaws in the sense that I have no doubt they will release him once he gets a better offer in the NHL.

Better offer can be similar or even LESS money over a longer term as the total financial commitment makes the overall package more valuable.

I have no doubt that Ryan will be back in the NHL, but not on a one year deal or a 2 year deal at the same money he is making in the KHL

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12-08-2012, 07:53 AM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Relationships between two leagues are one thing, the laws are another thing. A league like the KHL can decide to respect NHL restricted free agency and contract issues can be settled accordingly via the negotiation path designated in the Memorandum of Understanding between NHL and KHL. However, should the league or the player decide to give the NHL the finger (which I don't think is going to be the case with O'Reilly BTW) then there is nothing the NHL can do about it legally.
KHL/NHL memorandum doesn't make a difference between RFA and UFA IIRC (that's why the likes of Vladimir Tarasenko, KHL RFAs, could walk away freely). It is about whether player has a current contract or not. ROR doesn't.

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12-08-2012, 08:24 AM
  #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
not true. KHL RFAs are allowed to sign anywhere else in the world
Two words, Denis Parshin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Ryan cannot go to Colorado management and get counseled on this situation. They are not permitted to speak with the Org. Reps on any matter other than advising players to speak to their union reps.

As for the deal, Ryan can sign in the KHL and would be committed there if the KHL chooses not to let him go. He has NO VALID NHL contract right now and was not awarded a 2 year deal via arbitration such as the Hudler situation many years ago.

As for the verbal out, the KHL team put that in their to circumvent their own bylaws in the sense that I have no doubt they will release him once he gets a better offer in the NHL.

Better offer can be similar or even LESS money over a longer term as the total financial commitment makes the overall package more valuable.

I have no doubt that Ryan will be back in the NHL, but not on a one year deal or a 2 year deal at the same money he is making in the KHL
I really don't understand why he couldn't notify them. On one hand people say he has no contract, so if he has no contract why would league rules apply to him? On the other he is a RFA, during a lockout season, so he hasn't been released from the club. His Dec 1st deadline has passed to play in the NHL this season, would that be a problem or not?

There's a billion technicality questions that this lockout causes, but the one which has yet to be answered is why the KHL would have dominion over our RFAs AND their own RFAs but the NHL clubs wouldn't.

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12-08-2012, 08:43 AM
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Two words, Denis Parshin
Are you speaking about last summer 2011? Because I have no idea when he was RFA in KHL.

His contract with CSKA expirated 30.4.2011
CSKA offered him QO (3y deal), he signed it (1.6.2011)
CSKA traded him to SY Ufa this season, has contract until 30.4.2014

If you speak about year 2009, it was speacial case. Disciplinary case - that was a reason not signing with Avs, not being RFA.

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12-08-2012, 08:44 AM
  #413
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
If you speak about year 2009, it was speacial case. Disciplinary case - that was a reason not signing with Avs, not being RFA.
Can you go further in-depth into this? Because from everything I understand, he wanted to leave, his contract was up but he was given a QO and forced to remain in the KHL.

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12-08-2012, 09:01 AM
  #414
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I did not want to bring original (russian) text of KHL rules into this dicsussion, but Lonewolfe2015 has been insulting KHL without knowing its rules. So, here we are.

Quote:
Статья 8. Статус Хоккеиста «Ограниченно свободный агент» (ОСА)

8. В случае, когда Хоккеист, имеющий статус «Ограниченно свободный агент», самовольно покидает систему КХЛ, т.е. заключает Контракт с Хоккейным Клубом любой хоккейной лиги/федерации или приостанавливает профессиональную деятельность,Игроку присваивается статус «Закрепленные права».
http://www.khl.ru/documents/KHL_lega...14_revised.pdf

Quote:
Paragraph 8. RFA status

8.If player being RFA arbitrarily left KHL, meaning signs contract with club of another league or federation OR retires, he becoming status of "reserves rights".
As you can see, KHL RFA can sign contract with club of another league (NHL) or federation (SM-Liiga, Elitserien, NLA etc)

I dont care about Parshin case or past, today are valid these rules (see above). Maybe in past there was another rule, I have no time to make research now. We live in Europe, so we dont have case law, precedens mean almost nothing for us. Yes, you have another law system, I know it.

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12-08-2012, 09:08 AM
  #415
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But is there not another rule in which RFAs are required to sign with their clubs if offered a QO? This is not made up, it straight from the biggest source of KHL information we NA's have in Dmitry Cheshnokov.

Maybe if I keep this up, I'll have actually insulted the KHL at some point.

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12-08-2012, 09:17 AM
  #416
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KHL rules have been amended year by year, there is no CBA for 6 years or so. Maybe rules Lonewolfe2015 is talking about was amended, I dont know. I only know about current status quo.

fedfed wrote about Tarasenko case. He was KHL RFA, refused QO of SKA, signed NHL, came back to KHL as player with valid NHL contract (for lockout period).

List of KHL RFAs afer 11/12 season

There is another RFA in KHL, lets call it "special RFA". It is a player under 21, who received QO of his previous club with conditions: a) 2-year deal and b) salary is at least 150% (in year 1) and 170% (in year 2) of his salary in last season (expireted contract). IIRC it was Kuznetsov case. "under 21" means by year of birth, not date of birth. So he must turn 21 (or less) in the year of receiving QO of this type. If he is 21 at the day of receiving QO and turn 22 a few days later, club can not offer him such QO. Simple.

Arent we off topic? This debate is about KHL-NHL relationship not lockout... MOD??

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12-08-2012, 09:33 AM
  #417
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Quote:
But is there not another rule in which RFAs are required to sign with their clubs if offered a QO?
No, player is not obligated to accept QO if is RFA in KHL. He can refuse and find out job in Sweden, Mongolia, Canada, USA or wherever. Is such rule in NHL? If yes, is not this unlawfull? There is a freedom of choosing employer for employees in Europe and I hope in US as well.

1.KHL club can offer QO to player from April 1 to April 30 if a player´s contract expires April 30 of this year and he is under 29 (or 28 if played XY games in KHL, too complicated). OQ if at least for 2years (or 1y deal if 28y guy).

2. If point 1 happens, player becomes RFA and can sign offer sheet of another KHL club until 31 May. It works like in NHL, I hope.

3. If point 1 DOES NOT happen, player becomes UFA since May 1

Maybe you dont believe, but KHL rules regarding player contracts (singing and termination etc) are very liberal, more liberal than in NHL. I am sure.

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12-08-2012, 09:35 AM
  #418
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Quote:
Dmitry Cheshnokov.
Is he a lawyer? Better said sport or labour lawyer?

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12-08-2012, 09:36 AM
  #419
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We went down this path when you told me O'Reilly was controlled by his KHL club now.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/...urn=nhl-178394

This is what I've been referencing. I don't speak Russian, I can't translate the rules. But what I can do is read the occasional bits by the guy claiming to be the biggest KHL reporter in NA.

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12-08-2012, 09:51 AM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
There's a billion technicality questions that this lockout causes, but the one which has yet to be answered is why the KHL would have dominion over our RFAs AND their own RFAs but the NHL clubs wouldn't.
You're aware that Russia and Canada/USA have different legislations? If Russian law allows clubs to tie RFAs much tighter than NA law does, then your question is answered.

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12-08-2012, 10:15 AM
  #421
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
You're aware that Russia and Canada/USA have different legislations? If Russian law allows clubs to tie RFAs much tighter than NA law does, then your question is answered.
Have you seen me answering the question in that post? I just said that no matter what, KHL considers O'Reilly a free agent, free from any obligations to the Avs.
You said that KHL can respect the NHL restricted free agency and settle conflicts via negotiations. I said it's not the case, because KHL does not respect NHL restricted free agency (Radulov) and vice versa (Tarasenko, Cervenka).
Quote:
2. If point 1 happens, player becomes RFA and can sign offer sheet of another KHL club until 31 May. It works like in NHL, I hope.
There are different kinds of RFAs in the KHL(depends on player's age). In-depth look here: http://www.russianmachineneverbreaks...eny-kuznetsov/


Last edited by fedfed: 12-08-2012 at 10:21 AM.
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12-08-2012, 10:30 AM
  #422
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I have made reseached of KHL rules valid back in 2008 - 2010.

The article you mentioned (written by Dmitry Chesnokov) - the article is based on statements of coach (Nazarov) or GM (Nemchinov) not on law.

Quote:
Andrei Nazarov told Sovetsky Sport: "There was no provision in Dadonov's contract allowing him to go to the NHL..."
yes, true. KHL contracts does (did) not include out opt clause. Any problem?

Quote:
Sergei Nemchinov, told Sovetsky Sport that "the main document of the KHL is its Regulations, which prescribe that the two players have to sign new contracts with their club."
true, both were RFA if I believe the author. So were obligated to sign with CSKA within KHL (if not contra QO of another club, Nemchinov forget to mention it). Any problem?

IMO Dmitry Chesnokov was overreacted in article, did not know rules, wanted to threaten readers or "bring suprising (false) news" One more time, is he a lawyer? Journalists dont understand law, so dont believe EVERYTHING them, especially if they (NA based) are speaking about Europeans/ Russian law.

And now back to rules valid in KHL (2008-10)

Quote:
В случае, когда Хоккеист, имеющий статус «Ограниченно свободный агент», покидает систему Континентальной хоккейной лиги (принимает предложение другого хоккейного клуба, не входящего в систему Лиги, приостанавливает профессиональную деятельность), хоккейный Клуб Лиги, с которым у Хоккеиста был подписан последний контракт, сохраняет за собой все права на такого Хоккеиста соответствии с его статусом («Ограниченно свободный агент») на неограниченный срок, и получает право сделать в случае его возвращения квалифицированное предложение, в том числе и на условиях, отличных от предложения, сделанного до его ухода.
Simply translation
Quote:
If player being RFA is leaving KHL (singing contract with club which is not in KHL´s system) or retireing, his previous club holds his KHL rights and has right to offer him QO (new one, with new conditions - worse or better) if he comes back
KHL´s system means clubs of KHL and MHL (VHL did not exist these days). As you can see, there was EXPRESSIS VERBIS that a RFA can sign in other league.

Quote:
Two young very prospective Swedish kids -- Linus Omark (drafted by Edmonton in 2007, 97th overall) and Johan Harju (drafted by Lightning in 2007, 167th overall) -- signed with Dynamo Moscow earlier this year. This means that they too won't be able to play in the NHL until they are 28 (or if they pay a "compensation" to their KHL club).
Season 2010-11, both playing NHL, were under 28, paid no compensation to Dynamo. So how serious is Chesnokov´s conclusion??
IIRC both had one year deal with Dynamo, became KHL RFAs in summer 2010, signed in NHL.

I see that some of you dont speak russian, cant read KHL rules, so you have info from "KHL specialists" based in US. It is ok. I just say that these KHL specialists dont know everything. To be honest, russian, slovak, czechs etc journalist dont know as well. Chesnokov would be superstar if compared him to some (all) slovak/czech so called KHL (hockey) journalists

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12-08-2012, 11:18 AM
  #423
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So, I will sum up on O'Reilly's status to remove any misunderstandings. Thanks to vorky for his input regarding KHL regulations.
  • Legally, it looks like O'Reilly will be in Metallurg until 2014.
  • When it will expire, he will be a KHL RFA in accordance to Article 8 of KHL Legal Regulations. Based on Article 8.8, he'll be able to leave KHL system without notifying former club.
  • His contract is not subject to the same rules as Malkin's, Ovechkin's, etc. because he doesn't have a current contract with the NHL team and term of the contract (2 years instead of 1 in lockout regulations) shows that.
  • Therefore, there's no official "opt-out clause" in his contract as it is regulated by Article 16.2 of KHL Legal Regulations that doesn't allow teams to include such clauses in contracts. The contract, however, can be terminated by mutual consent in accordance to Article 31 of the forementioned Regulations.
  • Theoretical "O'Reilly case" is not a subject to the KHL/NHL memorandum because NHL RFA rules do not regulate relations with other leagues. From KHL's point of view, he's a Free Agent. And that's the term used in memorandum, not "Restricted Free Agent" or "Unrestricted Free Agent".
  • According to Metallurg's official site, they have reached verbal agreement that is letting O'Reilly go to the NHL once the lockout ends. However, there's one limitation: the NHL contract should have more 'lucrative terms' than his current KHL deal.
  • On the other hand, according to KHL Legal Regulations, Article 11.1, verbal agreement is void.

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12-08-2012, 11:21 AM
  #424
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You know he could just leave russia and go play int he NHL if he wants... legal or not, what the khl gonna do about it.

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12-08-2012, 11:28 AM
  #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Is he a lawyer? Better said sport or labour lawyer?
Chesnokov is the undisputed #1 source for anything related to Russian hockey or Russian hockey players. I'm pretty sure he knows every Russian hockey player that has played in the NHL almost personally and I'm sure he has direct contact with just about every KHL team and the league itself.

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