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Lockout Discussion Thread 3.0

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Old
12-08-2012, 08:55 AM
  #1001
HCH
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Good post.

Plausible expansion markets: Quebec City, Seattle, Las Vegas, Hartford, Houston, in my opinion.
Well one of them has been tried already, the rink only holds 15,000 fans and they are currently drawing about 3600 fans a game to their AHL franchise. Las Vegas has all the potential to be another Phoenix and it doesn't have an NHL rink. Seattle won't have a rink for another couple of seasons and neither will Quebec. Houston might be plausible but when you look at the struggles of the sun-belt teams you would want to to do a lot more work studying the situation before moving a franchise there.

Your suggestions are sheer genius. They weren't options when the NHL expanded a few years ago and most of them won't be options in the foreseeable future.

Even if money losing franchises could re-locate to these cities and they became financially viable, that would leave a half-dozen teams losing money. If the NHLPA was really concerned about the future generations of NHL players they would realize that having profitable franchises would be a good thing. There would be a demand from additional cities to have their own franchise and more jobs would be created.

The system doesn't work right now. Your solution is akin to shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic

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12-08-2012, 08:57 AM
  #1002
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and you think Bettman care ?


envy much.
Do you actually read and at least TRY to understand what I write?

SIgh...

No, I am not "envious", I am pointing out a bunch of facts about what the players receive for playing hockey as a living. I am pointing out facts about how many benefits the players get above and beyond just their salaries. I am showing what the players "get" on the whole so that people understand that they are on the receiving end of a ton of perks that are not included in a CBA negotiation but are real bonuses that the players get and that are paid for, or arranged, by the owners. I am not pointing out that their "star" status is a problem, I am pointing out that it is ONE of the things the players "get" by being part of the NHL. You seem to have glossed over all of the other valid things the players "get" that the OWNERS pay for that are not part of the CBA negotiations just so you could try and dismiss my argument with a childish and immature attempt to misdirect people from my overall point.

Maybe you will read this post and try to answer...ahh, never mind. You won't.

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:02 AM
  #1003
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
I'm starting to believe that the players could be better off with decertification since star player salaries will sky rocket.. But that would probably insta kill the team in Phoenix, Columbus, maybe Nashville so some players would loose their jobs(so not good at all for borderline NHLer)
I agree that the star players would probably see their salaries skyrocket. Team like Toronto, Philadelphia, the Rangers and the Habs could outbid smaller market teams. But this should be about all of the players and not just the star players. Decertification could see the salaries for third and fourth line players drop in half. It could also spell the end to guaranteed contracts. It wouldn't be good from the standpoint of the owners either. With no draft teams would be free to sign players to contracts at sixteen years old. Once again, the rich teams would have the ability to carry a lot of contracts for a long time and the potential for an unbalanced league would increase.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing what the league would look like in about two years if decertification actually occurred. It might bring fresh new perspective to both sides.

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12-08-2012, 09:02 AM
  #1004
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Originally Posted by RC51 View Post
the players simply did not listen to the NHL last proposal.
the nhl will put up another 100 mil and on top of that the nhl will drop 3 of the 6 must have changes to the contract rules. What did the players do with this offer. REJECTED but thanks for all the givaways. now that we have the new givaways we want to split the rest of 3 must have changes to the contracts. The players did not listen to the NHL proposal. " give us these 3 things and we will give you 100mil + these 3 other things." The players rejected the best offer the NHL was ready to do. Anything from this moment forward is on the heads of the players. If the players are all surprised at this outcome then they were given BAD advise by Fehr and this negotiation is now OVER.
There are no giveaways by the NHL. It is a matter of them taking away less. Pretty much every item on the table from revenues to salaries to contractual rights are vastly in favor of the league.

It is not to the benefit of the players to capitulate on every point in this negotiation, and there is no reason why they should. Those blaming the players need to remember that this is a lockout, not a strike.

To put things in better perspective I suggest to check out this link.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/170585...troying-sports

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:06 AM
  #1005
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Thanks LL. I guess I can see Dryden's point, but I wouldn't be too confident using HRR definition as moral high ground for the owners, as profits from team sales and government subsidies are not included.
I meant a whole lot more than simple sponsorships, though. I meant endorsements, but also signing fees (Ovechkin charged $100 per signature on an item when he last was signing in Montreal!!!), appearance fees (some guys get thousands just to show up at a card convention and then charge signing fees on top of that!), public speaking fees, money made from books written about/for the player in question, signed hockey card sales, sales of signed jerseys, etc...

The only HRR that is being divided comes completely out of the owners side of things. Players have plenty of HRR, but it is never added to the total HRR of the NHL while pretty much everything from the owners' side is (food and drinks sold, memorabilia sales, money from government subsidies, ticket sales, etc...) is being divided between the owners and the players. The players are not putting any cash into the pot at all, even though they have a significant amount of their own HRR that could, and probably should, be added to the entire HRR.

That is what I meant.

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:13 AM
  #1006
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
In the same way that PK Subban's autograph doesn't count towards HRR, neither does Geoff Molson's.

The concept of an "owners' HRR" is quite facetious.

Btw there's no dichotomy between being after money and being honest. You seem to view the fact subsidies are counted as part of HRR as being some sort of revelation. It's not a revelation.
Nobody pays Molson for his autograph. Many players charge significant sums at card shows and other signings for each signature. Price was last up to $40 per autograph when I saw him a couple of years ago at a show. Molson wouldn't get paid a penny for his autograph.

There is NOTHING "facetious" about the concept of an "owners' HRR". The owners pay everything and have to split the HRR they earn with their businesses. The players pay nothing in cash towards any of the bills. That makes it the owners' HRR that gets divvied up while any Hockey Related Revenue the players actually do make is never added to any part of the overall HRR.

What is "facetious" is your statement that it is not a "revelation" about the government subsidies being part of the HRR because there was at least one person in this thread who did not know that and was happy to have it pointed out to him.

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:23 AM
  #1007
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post


You two need to work on bettering your station in life instead of complaining that somebody somewhere has it better than you.
I am not being "envious", I was pointing out a fact about what the players get above and beyond their salaries. I am not envious that Koivu was able to get help faster than anyone else in Canada who had the same health issues, I am pointing it out as a fact that players get lots of perks above and beyond their salaries that never get included in the CBA bargaining process or even in the CBA contract. Nice of you to try and focus on one aspect of the overall point so you could attempt to undermine the actual point in such a childish and immature manner. Maybe you shouldn't be drinking whiskey with your brain half off and watching TV while responding to my post like you do when at your job.

By the way, I never stated the players SHOULDN'T get the perks they get. I only pointed out that they actually get them. That is not quite the definition of "envious". Shouldn't an educated academic like you understand the difference???

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:30 AM
  #1008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I am not being "envious", I was pointing out a fact about what the players get above and beyond their salaries. I am not envious that Koivu was able to get help faster than anyone else in Canada who had the same health issues, I am pointing it out as a fact that players get lots of perks above and beyond their salaries that never get included in the CBA bargaining process or even in the CBA contract. Nice of you to try and focus on one aspect of the overall point so you could attempt to undermine the actual point in such a childish and immature manner. Maybe you shouldn't be drinking whiskey with your brain half off and watching TV while responding to my post like you do when at your job.

By the way, I never stated the players SHOULDN'T get the perks they get. I only pointed out that they actually get them. That is not quite the definition of "envious". Shouldn't an educated academic like you understand the difference???
Don't worry, most people here understand what you're saying.

It seems like a trend to go personal when you're arguing about hockey in this board.

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:35 AM
  #1009
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Originally Posted by Myron Gaines View Post
Don't worry, most people here understand what you're saying.

It seems like a trend to go personal when you're arguing about hockey in this board.
It's trend to go the ad hominem way in many circles when the base arguments people are using are fallacies and have very little effect on the discussion. I find most political astroturfing campaigns end in ad hominen attacks most of the time for instance.

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:46 AM
  #1010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC51 View Post
the players simply did not listen to the NHL last proposal.
the nhl will put up another 100 mil and on top of that the nhl will drop 3 of the 6 must have changes to the contract rules. What did the players do with this offer. REJECTED but thanks for all the givaways. now that we have the new givaways we want to split the rest of 3 must have changes to the contracts. The players did not listen to the NHL proposal. " give us these 3 things and we will give you 100mil + these 3 other things." The players rejected the best offer the NHL was ready to do. Anything from this moment forward is on the heads of the players. If the players are all surprised at this outcome then they were given BAD advise by Fehr and this negotiation is now OVER.
It's not only the fact that they rejected it, it's the way they did it after tuesday's meetings. Players are complaining that the NHL are putting ultimatums on them, but they act like children. It's one thing that's important to them and then the next day it's another.

Why is it so important to sign more than 5 years? So players like Gomez can coast and not perform after the 3rd year of their contract? The owners are giving those contracts out because they can't afford to lose their best players in such a competitive league.

I'm not on either side as I like to keep perspective of both sides, but after this week, I'm really disappointed that the players completely missed the boat on the last offer and tried to "get a little bit more" 'cause uncle Donnie said so.

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Old
12-08-2012, 10:15 AM
  #1011
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The fans could solve this whole thing once and for all but we won't. People will flock back in droves when the league finally does start back up again. We are enabling the entire situation.

It's unfortunate that the "fans" couldn't for once speak with their wallet. Don't want any more lockouts? Then don't buy tickets or merchandise to show your displeasure. Want to lower ticket prices? Don't buy them. They will come down if they aren't selling.

The people have so much power but politicians and businessmen count on us not excercising that power, and they almost always win in the end. Too bad people wouldn't start realizing what they are able to do and make a difference.

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Old
12-08-2012, 10:28 AM
  #1012
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The reason there's no pro sports team in Vegas is that it was the most rapidly growing city in the USA for most of the past twenty years.

It is now large enough to support a professional sports franchise. Previously, it would not have been.
That trend isn't much different from Phoenix though. And there's a reason not even the NFL has seriously proposed going to Vegas.

First of all, the population tends to be transient meaning people have loyalties elsewhere; this has changed a bit but it's another American sunbelt city with massive sprawl.

The population centre is dominated by tourists, nobody is going to the desert to see the NHL. Vegas is already an entertainment capital, but what thrives there is special events like boxing and one time shows. It would be a great choice for an all star game or something, but a league season would get old quickly there.

Related to that, we aren't talking about an untapped market investment wise. You'd be competing for sponsorship money with the other events offered in Vegas, and there's no way hockey in the desert is going to take precedent over what Vegas is actually known for.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/23/comm...sbiz/index.htm

In fact the only advantage the NHL has over other sports teams in breaking that market, is hockey is so unpopular there that people don't even bet on it!

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Old
12-08-2012, 10:36 AM
  #1013
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I am not being "envious", I was pointing out a fact about what the players get above and beyond their salaries. I am not envious that Koivu was able to get help faster than anyone else in Canada who had the same health issues, I am pointing it out as a fact that players get lots of perks above and beyond their salaries that never get included in the CBA bargaining process or even in the CBA contract. Nice of you to try and focus on one aspect of the overall point so you could attempt to undermine the actual point in such a childish and immature manner. Maybe you shouldn't be drinking whiskey with your brain half off and watching TV while responding to my post like you do when at your job.

By the way, I never stated the players SHOULDN'T get the perks they get. I only pointed out that they actually get them. That is not quite the definition of "envious". Shouldn't an educated academic like you understand the difference???
Keep fighting the good fight!

You are absolutely correct on all issues in this thread. I can't be bothered to join as there are a number of posters on this thread who are only arguing for the sake of arguing. it is confusing when some of the academic types can't apply common sensibilities to their analysis of this lockout. It is akin to listening to late night radio, where well spoken/educated people mindlessly ramble on about UFO's and government cover-ups. I work with some people like this also, they seem to really relish the devil's advocate role......

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Old
12-08-2012, 11:32 AM
  #1014
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Why are players doing this whole #lockoutproblems ******** now? I don't get it... All it does is infuriate the fans.

Brandon Prust @BrandonPrust8:
#lockoutproblems @maripiermorin http://t.co/mP7RfQTO


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Old
12-08-2012, 11:45 AM
  #1015
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say here man...
Well, to understand it, you have to understand who I was criticizing. Particularly, pro-owner fans who think that the players should be grateful for whatever crumbs the owners are willing to part with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Bottom line is that the players have the right to have representation and they're better off having somebody negotiating for them. Do they know more than the average fan? Maybe so but who cares? They aren't negotiators, they are hockey players. That's why they HIRED somebody to fill the role. The fact that the owners don't want Fehr in the mix is indicative of him doing a pretty good job.
Well yes, however, the players have input into the negotiation process. They do have the right to representation. They also have the right to be involved in their own CBA negotiation. Criticizing the players for having opinions on a CBA negotiation in which they are more involved than their critics, simply because they don't have law degrees, is ****ing ********. That's what I was saying.

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Old
12-08-2012, 11:52 AM
  #1016
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Originally Posted by PyrettaBlaze View Post
Why are players doing this whole #lockoutproblems ******** now? I don't get it... All it does is infuriate the fans.

Brandon Prust @BrandonPrust8:
#lockoutproblems @maripiermorin http://t.co/mP7RfQTO

what idiots

we should unfollow all the players who are behaving like victims. they're not the victims, we are. Not wanting to work because you rather make 2.5 mil vs 2.1 mil, whether they are in the right or wrong, does not make make them a ''victim''.

Just unfollow them I say

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:55 PM
  #1017
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Just unfollow them I say
That will teach them !

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:09 PM
  #1018
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
That will teach them !
I think it would, actually.

Having access to thousands of followers is actually valuable and many people need to pay social marketing companies to have such a base. These are fans that they can reach out to even after their playing days. They want to create their own line or band of X product, than they will lose out on thousands of potential customers.

It also sends a direct message that says ''you are insignificant to us if you are not playing hockey''... which is 100% however I feel.

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12-08-2012, 01:16 PM
  #1019
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Unfollow ? Haha, we could also do a demonstration in front of the Bell centre or even jump over to the Bruins board ? That will teach them.

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:18 PM
  #1020
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I think it would, actually.

Having access to thousands of followers is actually valuable and many people need to pay social marketing companies to have such a base.
Only people who rely on their popularity to make money or be elected but hockey players don't rely on their popularity that much. Not like say politicians or singers.

I just don't see a hockey player spending money to increase his followers or caring much about the number of followers he has, not to the extent where it would influence his life in any meaningful way.

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It also sends a direct message that says ''you are insignificant to us if you are not playing hockey''.
I am sure they are aware of this, and likely don't give two *****.

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:19 PM
  #1021
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I'm starting to dislike Brandon Prust. He's making fun of a fan that makes 40k on Twitter. What a ****ing idiot. Thank God PK and Patches are keeping their mouth shut.

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:19 PM
  #1022
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Originally Posted by PyrettaBlaze View Post
Why are players doing this whole #lockoutproblems ******** now? I don't get it... All it does is infuriate the fans.

Brandon Prust @BrandonPrust8:
#lockoutproblems @maripiermorin http://t.co/mP7RfQTO

I told him he was spelling #richpeopleproblems wrong

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:26 PM
  #1023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
what idiots

we should unfollow all the players who are behaving like victims. they're not the victims, we are. Not wanting to work because you rather make 2.5 mil vs 2.1 mil, whether they are in the right or wrong, does not make make them a ''victim''.

Just unfollow them I say
They definitely aren't victims but it's hard to see how fans like us are actually victims either because we don't get to sit around and watch hockey.

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:27 PM
  #1024
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I'm starting to dislike Brandon Prust. He's making fun of a fan that makes 40k on Twitter. What a ****ing idiot. Thank God PK and Patches are keeping their mouth shut.
I saw that too, can't say I find it funny. Replying to a frustrated fan with sarcasm; Not very strong.

But to be honest, I'm mad at both parties. The NHLPA because they act like a bunch of oppressed slaves who happen to be millionaires and Gary Bettman 'cause he keeps accumulating lockouts.

I miss NHL hockey so much, I realized it this week as funny as it sounds. I just wish that a lot of fans lose interest for the NHL once it's back, wish we could make our own lockout.

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12-08-2012, 01:29 PM
  #1025
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I miss NHL hockey so much, I realized it this week as funny as it sounds. I just hope that a lot of fans lose interest for the NHL once it's back, wish we could make our own lockout.
That's the main reason baseball found labor peace, fans got fed up and it scared both parties straight.

If the NHL "wins" again and the fans comeback again, I don't see any deterrent at the end of the next CBA. Try and crush the players again.

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