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Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI

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12-07-2012, 09:34 PM
  #551
awfulwaffle
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
But do they live there all year long or do they head home in the spring. You can't expect them to switch teams if they are just there for the winter.
I dunno, ask them. There is a hockey base here, whether they like the Coyotes or not. The only challenge is getting them to go to games not against the team they like.

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12-07-2012, 09:36 PM
  #552
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Playoff games we filled the arena, there is a market here if there is someone in charge that cares and tries to get it working. Suns have been a big competition, but they are rebuilding and they suck, so if hockey starts up, it could be good for the Coyotes.

I'm not saying we can sell out every night. I'd like to, but the arena is in a bad spot. But I have a problem with people saying there are no fans in Phoenix, etc. I can't tell you how many times I show up for a Coyotes game and see fans of the opposing team. Hell, my old boss was a die hard Red Wings fan and would only show up when the Red Wings were in town.

I think with GJ, he can find a way to get these fans of other teams, or just "fair weather fans" to show up to games regularly. There are so many Canadians and fans of other hockey teams to say there is no market down here is a joke. The people that aren't here won't see that, but I live here and do see it.
If the market is relying on Canadian snow birds it has no hope. I know plenty of Canadians who vacation or own property down in the Phoenix area and they may go to one or two games a year, and they sure as hell aren't buying season tickets. It's beyond obvious for me to state that they have to convince permanent residents to attend Coyote games regularly.

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12-07-2012, 09:38 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by wpgallday1960 View Post
If the market is relying on Canadian snow birds it has no hope. I know plenty of Canadians who vacation or own property down in the Phoenix area and they may go to one or two games a year, and they sure as hell aren't buying season tickets. It's beyond obvious for me to state that they have to convince permanent residents to attend Coyote games regularly.
Where did I say the market relied on Canadian snow birds? I'm just saying that there are plenty of hockey fans down here in Phoenix. The problem is getting them to show up for games against teams they don't care about. People down here only show up against their own team.

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12-07-2012, 09:55 PM
  #554
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Where did I say the market relied on Canadian snow birds? I'm just saying that there are plenty of hockey fans down here in Phoenix. The problem is getting them to show up for games against teams they don't care about. People down here only show up against their own team.
I understand what you are saying but I think GJ has a monumental task ahead of him to make the team profitable. My own personal theory is that some non-traditional markets can make a go of it and some can't. I lean towards Phoenix/Glendale being in he "can't" camp but I will concede that hey haven't had a fair chance due to past issues that have been discussed thoroughly before.

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12-07-2012, 10:02 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by wpgallday1960 View Post
I understand what you are saying but I think GJ has a monumental task ahead of him to make the team profitable. My own personal theory is that some non-traditional markets can make a go of it and some can't. I lean towards Phoenix/Glendale being in he "can't" camp but I will concede that hey haven't had a fair chance due to past issues that have been discussed thoroughly before.
I don't know if they can, but I'd like to see an ownership group that wants it to work. I think we can all agree there are plenty of hockey fans down here, the only problem is getting them to show up to games. It is a monumental task, but I feel he might be the best chance we have at succeeding. Down the road the light rail will eventually go out to Glendale which might help.

The history of the Coyotes since they moved to Glendale have been not a fair fighting chance. I want to see an ownership that cares, and see what could happen with that in place.

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12-07-2012, 10:07 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
Playoff games we filled the arena, there is a market here if there is someone in charge that cares and tries to get it working. Suns have been a big competition, but they are rebuilding and they suck, so if hockey starts up, it could be good for the Coyotes.

I'm not saying we can sell out every night. I'd like to, but the arena is in a bad spot. But I have a problem with people saying there are no fans in Phoenix, etc. I can't tell you how many times I show up for a Coyotes game and see fans of the opposing team. Hell, my old boss was a die hard Red Wings fan and would only show up when the Red Wings were in town.

I think with GJ, he can find a way to get these fans of other teams, or just "fair weather fans" to show up to games regularly. There are so many Canadians and fans of other hockey teams to say there is no market down here is a joke. The people that aren't here won't see that, but I live here and do see it.
That was how it used to be at capitals games. More fans of opposing team than caps fans. Now it is almost all caps fans at games with sell out after sell out. The league need to get a better deal from the union to let teams grow and develop fanbases.

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12-07-2012, 11:40 PM
  #557
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Yeah, I'm generalizing from the governance perspective so my post isn't as clear as it could be either. It's just amazing to watch a municipality gambling at a table that has 0% odds. But that's just one perspective. There are a bunch of other things to consider. I should spend more time generalizing from an NHL perspective. They've navigated the situation incredibly well. Considering Moyes came to them in Fall 2009 requesting revenue advances to cover payroll, the NHL made roses out of this. The league escaped the specific performance clause in the lease with no buyout; left all cure costs with Moyes entity; got $50MM from Glendale; had two playoff seasons of revenue on a skeleton budget, including a 3 round appearance; steered a large scale subsidy to a potential owner; and sued Moyes and his wife in their personal capacity. That is a pretty fair job of maximizing the asset potential. I appreciate the skill involved.

But I tend to post more about the rather gullible administration at COG. They are chacacters. Its like they should be filming a sitcom.
Heh.... not sure if you are aware of it but the NFL Cardinals have asked several municipalities to put in proposals for hosting their fall pre-season camp (the contract in Flagstaff ran out this year). Glendale was one of the cities asked to make a proposal and they are going to make one.

Background: http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...camp-plan.html

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12-08-2012, 12:08 AM
  #558
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The real task is getting people to pay more than "next to free" for Coyotes tickets. Good luck with that. 20k people at five bucks a ticket is worthless.

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12-08-2012, 05:52 AM
  #559
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http://hookedonhockeymagazine.com/av...1-2012-season/
http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2012
http://content.usatoday.com/sportsda...ries/team/2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...sports_leagues
http://www.forbes.com/teams/phoenix-coyotes/
http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/salari...otes-salaries/

Phoenix
$36.15 * 509,241 = $18,409,062.15

Dallas (min)
$29.95 * 583,306 = $17,470,014.70

Toronto (max)
$123.77 * 799,786 = $98,989,513.22

NHL Average
$57.10 * (17,455 * 41 = 715,655) = $40,863,900.50

Coyotes Salary in 2011-12:$52,150,000
Coyotes Salary in 2012-13:$41,200,000
Difference = $10,950,000

Taking all of that into effect considering the NHL lost $20,600,000 with the $25,000,000 from Glendale puts it at $45,600,000 in losses in 2011-12. With Jamison only taking $15,000,000, that with the lower salary puts the losses at about the same level minus a million if everything stays the same. So considering that an altered TV deal won't be adding much the losses would be placed around $19,650,000 for 2012-13 give or take a few roster moves.

So in order to get 0 net losses the Coyotes would need around $38,059,062.15 in gate receipts. Just to throw out some figures to make it work.

Max. Capacity seated(17,125 * 41 = 702,125). Coyotes were 29th in the NHL in average ticket price going in.

Attendance amount - approx. avg. ticket price needed to reach $38,059,062.15 - rank in NHL
702,125 - $54.21 - (all games are nearly sold out)16th
650,000 - $58.55 - 13th
600,000 - $63.43 - 9th
550,000 - $69.20 - 5th
542,404 - $70.17 (highest attendance at Jobing) - 4th
525,000 - $72.49 - 4th
500,000 - $76.12 - 4th
487,543 - $78.06 (lowest attendance at Jobing) - 4th

I'm sure I got something wrong(suites, new CBA, etc.) but everything is just ballpark figures. I would think ticket prices would have to nearly double if they want to make this thing work without expecting a lot of new people watching games and paying a lot more.

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12-08-2012, 06:29 AM
  #560
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Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
Phoenix
$36.15 * 509,241 = $18,409,062.15

(...)

I'm sure I got something wrong(suites, new CBA, etc.) but everything is just ballpark figures. I would think ticket prices would have to nearly double if they want to make this thing work without expecting a lot of new people watching games and paying a lot more.
Thanks for the analysis.

I think the conclusion ("Coyotes need to increase gate revenues") is correct but there are 2 problems that make precise calculations much more hazardous:

1) $36.15 is the average ticket price for non-premium seating in Phoenix. Premium seating for the Coyotes is roughly at league average according to TMR. So the actual average price is assuredly higher than $36.15, but we don't know by how much because the split between premium and non-premium is made by each team and they don't have to disclose the number of seats in each category.

2) (standard criticism) the -20.6 million operating figure is a Forbes estimate that is either
(a) based on numbers self-reported by the teams (therefore subject to manipulations depending on the PR point the team is trying to make i.e. last year prior to a lockout and the team is owned by the league!), or
(b) based on Forbes estimates for revenues and expenses because the team didn't self-report any data for that year (therefore subject to Forbes talking about of their *****).

JawandaPuck made a similar analysis based on the actual 2007-08 figures that were made public during the Moyes bankruptcy -- those would again require estimates if you're going to translate those into 2012-13 numbers.

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12-08-2012, 08:45 AM
  #561
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I dunno, ask them. There is a hockey base here, whether they like the Coyotes or not. The only challenge is getting them to go to games not against the team they like.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that there isn't a hockey base in Phoenix / Glendale. But 4,000-5,000 fans can't compete with 13-20,000.
That is the point.
If there is a market of 4,000-5,000 fans of hockey give them an AHL team named the Arizona Coyotes, few will notice the difference.

Prove the market is viable, then go for an NHL team again. There is no excuse, you guys had the following yet still lost money... for 15 years I may add....

1) a team that went to the West Division Finals! This alone should fill the rink for the next 5 years (it would in a true hockey market)

2) ticket prices that were below reasonable for NHL calibre hockey

3) a newish state of the art arena, c/w cheap parking (we pay $10-$15 near the MTS Centre)

4) a talented team (see point #1)

Hell, Winnipeg could have a dud on the ice for the next 5-6 years yet the rink will be filled at much higher prices! Until Phoenix/Glendale do the same they don't need an NHL team.

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12-08-2012, 09:21 AM
  #562
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
I don't think anyone here is arguing that there isn't a hockey base in Phoenix / Glendale. But 4,000-5,000 fans can't compete with 13-20,000.
That is the point.
If there is a market of 4,000-5,000 fans of hockey give them an AHL team named the Arizona Coyotes, few will notice the difference.

Prove the market is viable, then go for an NHL team again. There is no excuse, you guys had the following yet still lost money... for 15 years I may add....

1) a team that went to the West Division Finals! This alone should fill the rink for the next 5 years (it would in a true hockey market)

2) ticket prices that were below reasonable for NHL calibre hockey

3) a newish state of the art arena, c/w cheap parking (we pay $10-$15 near the MTS Centre)

4) a talented team (see point #1)

Hell, Winnipeg could have a dud on the ice for the next 5-6 years yet the rink will be filled at much higher prices! Until Phoenix/Glendale do the same they don't need an NHL team.
Sharks sold out every game last year but still lost money.

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12-08-2012, 09:23 AM
  #563
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Heh.... not sure if you are aware of it but the NFL Cardinals have asked several municipalities to put in proposals for hosting their fall pre-season camp (the contract in Flagstaff ran out this year). Glendale was one of the cities asked to make a proposal and they are going to make one.

Background: http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...camp-plan.html
Thanks for the link, I was not aware. Are those the same Cardinals that unmercifully commenced action against Glendale this summer over parking just as the city was dealing with the budget deficit and Coyotes lease? They seem like a good business partner. Expanding that relationship is probably a great idea.

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12-08-2012, 09:25 AM
  #564
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
Sharks sold out every game last year but still lost money.
Proving there's no hope for the Coyotes to ever turn a profit in Phoenix as the Sharks are in a much better position to turn a profit and are failing to do so.

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12-08-2012, 09:43 AM
  #565
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Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
Sharks sold out every game last year but still lost money.
It is pointless to argue with them. That this thread is a sticky on a general hockey discussion is ridiculous. Ticket prices are too high in hockey. Instead of them bashing the Coyotes for having reasonable prices on tickets perhaps they should be bashing the team that have ridiculous prices on tickets.

The most expensive season ticket for baltimore orioles baseball is 48 dollars. We are talking about one of the nicest stadiums in all of sports in the richest state in the USA. And the general public actually cares about baseball.

The highest washington capitals season ticket available is 135 and the cheapest is 65. And at 65 you have a terrible seat. And the Caps supposedly sold out every game and still lost money.

I don't go to games anymore as the team started playing the trap and I am not paying insane amount of money to be bored. The league can't keep raising prices. All the teams will eventually be priced out of existence.

If hockey ever wants to be successful they need a big tv contract. And the way to get that is to get rid of the trap. And play end to end hockey like they did in the 80's. Look how many rule changes the NFL creates to make their product appealing. The NFL needs to do the same.

And bashing other teams fans serves no purpose. What did Phoenix ever do to you? Phoenix is a huge market. The NHL doesn't want to give up on it to get a tiny market in canada. American TV is where the money is located. And that is what they need to tap if they ever want to be more than a niche sport.

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12-08-2012, 09:44 AM
  #566
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Proving there's no hope for the Coyotes to ever turn a profit in Phoenix as the Sharks are in a much better position to turn a profit and are failing to do so.
Well I think it only proves that the players need to get in touch with reality and sign the latest offer from the owners.

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12-08-2012, 09:47 AM
  #567
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
I don't think anyone here is arguing that there isn't a hockey base in Phoenix / Glendale. But 4,000-5,000 fans can't compete with 13-20,000.
That is the point.
If there is a market of 4,000-5,000 fans of hockey give them an AHL team named the Arizona Coyotes, few will notice the difference.

Prove the market is viable, then go for an NHL team again. There is no excuse, you guys had the following yet still lost money... for 15 years I may add....

1) a team that went to the West Division Finals! This alone should fill the rink for the next 5 years (it would in a true hockey market)

2) ticket prices that were below reasonable for NHL calibre hockey

3) a newish state of the art arena, c/w cheap parking (we pay $10-$15 near the MTS Centre)

4) a talented team (see point #1)

Hell, Winnipeg could have a dud on the ice for the next 5-6 years yet the rink will be filled at much higher prices! Until Phoenix/Glendale do the same they don't need an NHL team.
if winnipeg was such a great market why did they lose the team to begin with? And they have a tiny arena in winnipeg.

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12-08-2012, 09:53 AM
  #568
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btw Winnipeg is 25th in attendance. Even the Devils had more fans per game.

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12-08-2012, 09:55 AM
  #569
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The two biggest problems Jamison will face IMO going forward are:

- Not just getting people to go to games, but specifically go to the Monday - Thursday games. People will go to games on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, that's not the problem. It's those other days. And the only way to accomplish this is to increase the ST base to at least 10,000 full time people. That way when Carolina comes to town on a Tuesday you still have a decent number of tickets sold.

- Increase ticket revenues. The NHL is still a gate driven league so ticket prices are your bread and butter. The thing is Jamison can't just come in day 1 and double ticket prices... not in a market where prices have been lower than average for a long time. So he is going to have to do something like raise prices 5-7% each season and hope he doesn't face any kind of a backlash. As well, make it very attractive to be a full STH.

I'm not sure how flexible the NHL schedule maker can be, but what might help the Coyotes would be to have the Monday - Thursday games against teams like Detroit and Chicago which you know are big draws and have your weekend games against teams that are normally not your big draws.

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12-08-2012, 09:59 AM
  #570
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In 2006-2007 the Blackhawks had 12,727 fans per game. Should the team been shut-down by the NHL? They were also 29th in attendnace in 2005-2006.

Teams can turn around and fans can stop coming to your teams games.

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12-08-2012, 10:02 AM
  #571
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Originally Posted by atomic View Post
It is pointless to argue with them. That this thread is a sticky on a general hockey discussion is ridiculous. Ticket prices are too high in hockey. Instead of them bashing the Coyotes for having reasonable prices on tickets perhaps they should be bashing the team that have ridiculous prices on tickets.
Right, then EVERY team in the NHL can lose money this way. The Coyotes are bleeding a lot of money - and you think it's a good thing they have low ticket prices? No-one goes into business to try to lose money.

I have no problem with fans boycotting a sport because the price is too high for them. I understand - you have to look out for your own wallet and not someone else's. But you have to understand there are consequences to this - whether it effects you or not.

Quote:
And bashing other teams fans serves no purpose. What did Phoenix ever do to you?
No-one should be taking these comments personally. It's business plain and simple.
Plus the Coyotes fans aren't the problem, it's the non-hockey fans who are. There aren't enough of the former and way too many of the latter.

There's nothing wrong with being a bad hockey or football, etc market. If city/state/country doesn't enjoy a sport - then so be it. It's just a preference. It's not a reflection how good/bad the people are.

Quote:
Phoenix is a huge market. The NHL doesn't want to give up on it to get a tiny market in canada. American TV is where the money is located. And that is what they need to tap if they ever want to be more than a niche sport.
The reality is hockey will never be more than a niche sport in the US. We have decades of proof already.

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12-08-2012, 10:03 AM
  #572
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I don't go to games anymore as the team started playing the trap and I am not paying insane amount of money to be bored. The league can't keep raising prices. All the teams will eventually be priced out of existence.

If hockey ever wants to be successful they need a big tv contract. And the way to get that is to get rid of the trap. And play end to end hockey like they did in the 80's. Look how many rule changes the NFL creates to make their product appealing. The NFL needs to do the same.

And bashing other teams fans serves no purpose. What did Phoenix ever do to you? Phoenix is a huge market. The NHL doesn't want to give up on it to get a tiny market in canada. American TV is where the money is located. And that is what they need to tap if they ever want to be more than a niche sport.
Okay, I'm going for this paragraph by paragraph...

The Caps and the trap: no one believes Oates is going to run that team the same way as Hunter. It'll be more open, and while it won't be the up-and-down it was under Boudreau, the idea is that the Caps will be defensively responsible while allowing their horses to run

For the TV deal, it's not going to happen until the culture of the league changes. NBC gave them an amazingly good deal just prior to the lockout, and the reality is they'd be well within their right to tear that deal up and get their money back from the league if there's still no CBA come next October. The league does it to themselves, so for now, the only way individual teams can survive is at the gate.

To that end, Winnipeg is doing quite a bit better compared to their time in Atlanta, and yes, while some of that is due to strong ownership committed to the success of the team, a massive chunk of that is a fanbase that is
A.-willing to keep a league-smallest arena (15,004) sold out every game, and
B.-willing to do so at a high price

Now, there's no guarantee that Quebec or Markham could replicate that success, but the fact of the matter is that Phoenix hasn't been able to generate the gate revenue needed to be even close to solvent. And to be fair, they're not alone. New Jersey is the other best example: world-class team, world-class arena, AHL crowds, hemorrhaging money. What everyone against the arena management deal is saying is that, unlike Newark, the Glendale City Council is taking a massive gamble with what little money they have for the next 20 years on a team that, unlike the Cardinals, is not guaranteed to be financially solvent in Glendale. To make it worse, all the league's teams are about to suffer in the wake of a lockout that everyone says doesn't make sense to have now. So how does Jamison plan to do what Ellman and Moyes couldn't with that lead weight on his back? If he can do it, fantastic. There will be a great market there. However, historic apathy, low ticket prices, and an emerging hatred for all things NHL in the wake of a dumb lockout conspires against him, and CoG went all-in on that scenario.

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12-08-2012, 10:05 AM
  #573
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btw Winnipeg is 25th in attendance. Even the Devils had more fans per game.
Yes, but with 100% capacity. It's a limitation of the amount of seats in Winnepeg, not the amount of fans.

And yet with this limitation, the Jets were in the top 10 revenue for the league. How'd the Devils do in revenue? or 20+ other teams? You might want to do a little more research before grabbing numbers that conflict with the point you're trying to make.

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12-08-2012, 10:08 AM
  #574
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The two biggest problems Jamison will face IMO going forward are:

- Not just getting people to go to games, but specifically go to the Monday - Thursday games. People will go to games on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, that's not the problem. It's those other days. And the only way to accomplish this is to increase the ST base to at least 10,000 full time people. That way when Carolina comes to town on a Tuesday you still have a decent number of tickets sold.

- Increase ticket revenues. The NHL is still a gate driven league so ticket prices are your bread and butter. The thing is Jamison can't just come in day 1 and double ticket prices... not in a market where prices have been lower than average for a long time. So he is going to have to do something like raise prices 5-7% each season and hope he doesn't face any kind of a backlash. As well, make it very attractive to be a full STH.

I'm not sure how flexible the NHL schedule maker can be, but what might help the Coyotes would be to have the Monday - Thursday games against teams like Detroit and Chicago which you know are big draws and have your weekend games against teams that are normally not your big draws.
This is why Glendale is subsidizing ticket prices.

Agree with the point on scheduling. I think he has to convert many of the transplant fans as well.

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12-08-2012, 10:09 AM
  #575
cbcwpg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
In 2006-2007 the Blackhawks had 12,727 fans per game. Should the team been shut-down by the NHL? They were also 29th in attendnace in 2005-2006.

Teams can turn around and fans can stop coming to your teams games.
While attendance is a good indicator of the health of a franchise, it is not what's important. Revenue is what is important. The NHL and many teams have stated it takes between $80,000,000 and $105,000,000 for a team in the NHL to break even.

Are ticket prices in most markets too high? Yes.
Are the players being paid too much? Yes
Will the NHL ever land a TV contract like MLB or the NFL has? Never.

Those are the realities. People like to point at Winnipeg and say look at their tiny building and how they will always be one of the bottom teams in attendance.... So? Guess what. They are a top 10 revenue generating team in the NHL. Atlanta was losing money... Winnipeg made money. That's all Bettman and the owners care about.

So in respects to the team this thread is about. Jamison needs to find ways to generate more revenue. That's his bottom line.

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