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The Official Arena Thread Part 6

View Poll Results: On what day will city council vote to finalize a new arena for Edmonton's downtown?
Between now and Christmas 2012 8 7.41%
Between New Year's Day and the end of February 2013 30 27.78%
Between March and July, 2013 16 14.81%
Before the October 2013 civic election 14 12.96%
Not until 2014 4 3.70%
Not until 2015 3 2.78%
Not until 2016 1 0.93%
Not until 2017 6 5.56%
Never 26 24.07%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:20 AM
  #426
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I don't think that either of those bands are capable of selling 7000+ tickets. Playing The Shaw Conference Centre is probably their best bet.

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12-08-2012, 01:39 AM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
The city of Detroit is bankrupt and facing being taken over by the state in one of the hardest hit state economies in the US, and they are handing out tax dollars to build arenas.

Regardless of Edmonton's own predicament, that is hilarious.
Yes, pensioners on fixed incomes subsidizing NHL player multi-million dollar salaries..

Not a pleasant picture.

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12-08-2012, 01:52 AM
  #428
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No it isn't actually. Its the closest thing to pissing in the wind.

What exactly is wrong with Joe Louis Arena?

This notion that entertainment leads to revitilization, economic resurrection, and vitality is strange at best.

If anything it shakes money out of the pockets of whats left of the middle class trying to pay mortgage.

The way to build economies is through industry, production, jobs, middle class, and real disposable income. Spent on things people actually require to be productive. Most nations that are rising up in the world order get this.

A flatlining dead and bankrupt city like Detroit probably shouldn't be wasting Tax dollars.
Please spare the dramatics...way to blow things out of proportion. I'm sure this will not bring the motor city down nor would it weigh to heavy on the citizens of Edmonton. Neither city/economy has to implement Roosevelt's new deal or build sprocket factories to spur economic developement. I'm sure there are alot of US cities that would love Ilitch to do business in their cities, I'm sure the same could be said for Katz as well.

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12-08-2012, 02:19 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
I don't think that either of those bands are capable of selling 7000+ tickets. Playing The Shaw Conference Centre is probably their best bet.
Both bands would easily sell 7000+.

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12-08-2012, 02:35 AM
  #430
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Both bands would easily sell 7000+.
I dont think so.

Paul McCartney and RHCP just played two shows each at Rexall. Bands are not "avoiding" Rexall or being diverted away by Katz, who has nothing to do with booking concerts at Rexall or anywhere else.

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12-08-2012, 03:29 AM
  #431
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I'm not sure if this is relevant or not but I mentioned it in the OT Thread. I've noticed that a few upcoming concerts (Alexisonfire, Billy Talent) are at Shaw Conference instead of Rexall. Is Rexall outdated enough that they can't play there or is Katz purposefully selling the arena short to the managers of the bands or something?
Katz isn't involved with alternative events at rexall, no revenue from it either.

It's one of the main reasons EIG is being cut out of the new arena deal.

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12-08-2012, 05:57 AM
  #432
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Please spare the dramatics...way to blow things out of proportion. I'm sure this will not bring the motor city down nor would it weigh to heavy on the citizens of Edmonton. Neither city/economy has to implement Roosevelt's new deal or build sprocket factories to spur economic developement. I'm sure there are alot of US cities that would love Ilitch to do business in their cities, I'm sure the same could be said for Katz as well.
Speak for yourself. I'm not the one spreading lame nonsense that arenas revitilize dead broke cities and their impoverished downtowns.

lol at the amount of times people point at bankrupt cities like Detroit and Quebec City and sound off about thats how Edmonton should be running things...

Yeah I'm fine with the city I'm in and the more responsible way in which its managed.

Kudos to city hall here. I'm accepting the status quo fine and don't particularly want for more.

So who's being the drama queens? People spouting off that they'll move if Edmonton doesn't build another arena? Yeah, heard that a few thousand times around here.

ps Maybe you missed the news but Detroit has already been brought crashing down. Really I don't think they'd be able to invest in this even if they wanted to. 20billion in debt, chapter 9 bankruptcy, and can't borrow a dime at decent rates. As cities go the worst credit risk in the states. Wanting to build a new arena..lol.


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12-08-2012, 07:23 AM
  #433
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Pretty big difference with the proposed deal in Detroit. First, Ilitch is investing $650M himself. He is then applying to use $12.8M in unused tax dollars from the Detroit Downtown Development Authority. And, it is not like it has been approved. He has been approved to apply only.

My guess is if Katz offered to put in $650M of his own cash and build the arena himself on the condition that he receives an annual $12.8M subsidy from the city, the deal would be signed in a second. Especially if that money was specifically earmarked for downtown redevelopment and currently not being used.

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12-08-2012, 11:13 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Well, it sounds like the city still wants to negotiate with The Katz Group. Councilman Anderson is suggesting that they have to come to an agreement on a deal before March as the project is in danger of becoming an election issue. He claims that The Katz Group might run into more problems getting this deal done if there's a turnover on council.

Mandel is suggesting that they need to get another mediator involved ASAP.
It was inevitable that they went back to negotiating with Katz. Even if they build it themselves they have to work out a lease arrangement that he will accept to play in the building, they cant just build it on their own without an agreement for the team to play there.

And getting it done before another election could be a big deal. If the economy shifts just a little and makes people jumpy you'll get several people come out of the woodwork and run on a no spending on an arena platform. If that happens and enough of them win seats it gets that much harder for a rink to get built.

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12-08-2012, 11:29 AM
  #435
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It was inevitable that they went back to negotiating with Katz. Even if they build it themselves they have to work out a lease arrangement that he will accept to play in the building, they cant just build it on their own without an agreement for the team to play there.

And getting it done before another election could be a big deal. If the economy shifts just a little and makes people jumpy you'll get several people come out of the woodwork and run on a no spending on an arena platform. If that happens and enough of them win seats it gets that much harder for a rink to get built.
Just with this point alone Sohi ran an ardent campaign in opposition to public funding of an arena. He subsequently voted yes in council votes approving public funding of an arena. He'll get re-elected.

He shouldn't, but he will. Your point assumes that present day politicians feel any obligation or pressure to stick with their major campaign platforms. WE tend to get the democracy we deserve. People just don't care to follow what their representatives are actually doing enough. We don't make our leaders accountable.

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12-08-2012, 12:18 PM
  #436
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Just with this point alone Sohi ran an ardent campaign in opposition to public funding of an arena. He subsequently voted yes in council votes approving public funding of an arena. He'll get re-elected.

He shouldn't, but he will. Your point assumes that present day politicians feel any obligation or pressure to stick with their major campaign platforms. WE tend to get the democracy we deserve. People just don't care to follow what their representatives are actually doing enough. We don't make our leaders accountable.
He might pay for that flip flop, then again maybe not. Diotte also ran on a strong anti-arena campaign and has for the most part stuck to it. It really depends on what happens between then and now and during the campaign.

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12-08-2012, 12:29 PM
  #437
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He might pay for that flip flop, then again maybe not. Diotte also ran on a strong anti-arena campaign and has for the most part stuck to it. It really depends on what happens between then and now and during the campaign.
This riding has never been specifically responsive to fine details and especially on the civic level. We've had decades of deplorable representation. If you look through some of the alderman that have represented Millwoods through the decades you begin to understand how little infrastructure it has and why LRT projected to arrive in 1979 never came.

Sohi will almost certainly get re-elected. But shouldn't. He's heard my views as have previous representatives. It often feels as if it doesn't matter.

You're right with Diotte as well. There were a few others too. On elections campaigns and taking from that there were about 5-6 elected representatives that were opposed to public funding of an arena. A position that didn't end up being representative in subsequent aldermanic voting.

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12-08-2012, 01:30 PM
  #438
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Millwoods was supposed to have LRT back in 1979?

Are you ****ing kidding me? This pisses me off even further than our abysmal transit system already does.

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12-08-2012, 01:36 PM
  #439
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I meant the $17/hour guy would be the little 17 year old running around getting coffee and donuts and crap for the workers. Yeah, anyone that's actually lifting anything more than 5 lbs up off the ground is getting probably $25/hr. Then you have your $40/hour + operators and your $50/hour engineers.
What kind of job is that?!? Um, there are no interns in construction (Except for engineers) 18 is the minimum age usually on a commercial or industrial construction site.

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12-08-2012, 04:19 PM
  #440
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I don't think that either of those bands are capable of selling 7000+ tickets. Playing The Shaw Conference Centre is probably their best bet.
I'm pretty sure Billy Talent has sold out Rexall place before. Not saying I agree with the ridiculous conspiracy theory but it is kind of weird.

I guess they aren't as popular now as they were 2 or 3 years ago.

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12-08-2012, 04:26 PM
  #441
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Millwoods was supposed to have LRT back in 1979?

Are you ****ing kidding me? This pisses me off even further than our abysmal transit system already does.
Yep.

Multiple early plans for the LRT had it running all the way to Millwoods by 1979 and FARTHER than the current plan. Afairc they had a terminus at approx 23Ave + 34st. I used to have these links and pdf documents saved but I lost a lot on a reformatting of my harddrive. It can probably still be googled up with some effort.

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12-08-2012, 04:28 PM
  #442
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With all respect I can't really have a conversation about this with people comparing downtown Detroit with Downtown Edmonton.

I can't comprehend the notion that anybody would think these are comparables.
There is no need for you to be so condescending to people. You might think it portrays you as being intelligent or well read, but it just makes you look arrogant and ignorant. Just because Detroit is in worse shape then Edmonton does not mean there are not comparables between the two cities downtown cores. Both are areas the affluent, and younger crowds in their respective areas avoid because they are lacking in entertainment, are relatively dangerous compared to other areas, and are just not a good place for a person to enjoy.

If you honestly think that if you fill both of those areas with entertainment options, such as sports franchises, restaurants, bars, etc, and they will still be the same that they are now, then you really need to read a few civics books and publications before you decide that you are going to talk to people on here the way you do.

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12-08-2012, 04:36 PM
  #443
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There is no need for you to be so condescending to people. You might think it portrays you as being intelligent or well read, but it just makes you look arrogant and ignorant. Just because Detroit is in worse shape then Edmonton does not mean there are not comparables between the two cities downtown cores. Both are areas the affluent, and younger crowds in their respective areas avoid because they are lacking in entertainment, are relatively dangerous compared to other areas, and are just not a good place for a person to enjoy.

If you honestly think that if you fill both of those areas with entertainment options, such as sports franchises, restaurants, bars, etc, and they will still be the same that they are now, then you really need to read a few civics books and publications before you decide that you are going to talk to people on here the way you do.
I wasn't being condescending. I even stated "with all due respect".

Sorry you took it that way. I mean what I said, its difficult to carry on a conversation if people think these two instances are similar in anyway. Even in your response you're trying to make a comparable about danger in the two cities? C'mon. Downtown Detroit is one of the worst places on the continent to be in.

I wasn't flaming, name calling, nothing. You're the one now calling me out on this so I suggest you relax.

Its a discussion, no harm, no foul.

You want to discuss this topic. Sure, you know I'll usually respectfully answer questions and debate.

I think if I find anything slightly aggravating its the notion that irresponsible and deplorable badly managed cities like Detroit and Quebec City are so often in these discussions being brought up as models of how or what we should do.

First and foremost I'm a fiscal conservative. I like that I happen to live in a city that is prudent about these things. But really thats the reason you don't hear about Edmonton going bankrupt. Right?

ps you called Edmonton's downtown a "hellhole". I don't much like it myself but you're looking for a reaction saying stuff like that. Go on C2E and say something like that there and see what occurs.

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12-08-2012, 04:47 PM
  #444
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I wasn't being condescending. I even stated "with all due respect".

Sorry you took it that way. I mean what I said, its difficult to carry on a conversation if people think these two instances are similar in anyway. Even in your response you're trying to make a comparable about danger in the two cities? C'mon. Downtown Detroit is one of the worst places on the continent to be in.

I wasn't flaming, name calling, nothing. You're the one now calling me out on this so I suggest you relax.

Its a discussion, no harm, no foul.

You want to discuss this topic. Sure, you know I'll usually respectfully answer questions and debate.

I think if I find anything slightly aggravating its the notion that irresponsible and deplorable badly managed cities like Detroit and Quebec City are so often in these discussions being brought up as models of how or what we should do.

First and foremost I'm a fiscal conservative. I like that I happen to live in a city that is prudent about these things. But really thats the reason you don't hear about Edmonton going bankrupt. Right?

ps you called Edmonton's downtown a "hellhole". I don't much like it myself but you're looking for a reaction saying stuff like that. Go on C2E and say something like that there and see what occurs.
Generally when someone starts something "with all due respect" or "I don't mean to offend" they mean the exact opposite. If you aren't one of those people, I apologize, it's just, as I'm sure your aware, your writing style can come off as very condescending.

My "hellhole" comment about Edmonton is a very common concern with people from other areas outside of Edmonton that come into the city for various reason and on occasion use the Greyhound to get there. I personally will not drive on 63 during the winter, so if I want to go to Edmonton, I take the bus. I have spent time with friends all over the city of Edmonton. I have never been harassed or bothered anywhere else in the city except within the area near the Greyhound station and the Baccarat. I know 3 people that have been mugged in that area, including one guy who was stabbed when he was mugged.

The downtown area needs revitalization. An arena would be just one of many things that could be added to help out mind you. I don't think just one thing will bring people there. But if you have the Arena, plus some nice restaurants and bars. Maybe even an art gallery and small theater (not movie) in the area as well. Those things will bring people to the downtown area, especially those coming from out of town, who now just book it for the River Cree.

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12-08-2012, 05:01 PM
  #445
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Generally when someone starts something "with all due respect" or "I don't mean to offend" they mean the exact opposite. If you aren't one of those people, I apologize, it's just, as I'm sure your aware, your writing style can come off as very condescending.
With all due respect is stated by me as its written. So people won't take offence. That is the proper use of the term. Not wanting to be argumentative here but you're imaging I'm being condescending, calling me out on it, and without apparently noticing you are presently being unpleasant doing so. Not sure what you mean by how I write as I like to express myself clearly. Sometimes I'm tongue in cheek when I'm strickly jk around. Sometimes in the discussion theres also the banter and prodding which we all do. But I think you're overstating me being out of line here.

Quote:
My "hellhole" comment about Edmonton is a very common concern with people from other areas outside of Edmonton that come into the city for various reason and on occasion use the Greyhound to get there. I personally will not drive on 63 during the winter, so if I want to go to Edmonton, I take the bus. I have spent time with friends all over the city of Edmonton. I have never been harassed or bothered anywhere else in the city except within the area near the Greyhound station and the Baccarat. I know 3 people that have been mugged in that area, including one guy who was stabbed when he was mugged.
Bus stations are the worst places anywhere. But still, on a scale downtown simply isn't dangerous. its more dangerous than it used to be but if we're comparing it to most US cities it certainly isn't.

Quote:
The downtown area needs revitalization. An arena would be just one of many things that could be added to help out mind you. I don't think just one thing will bring people there. But if you have the Arena, plus some nice restaurants and bars. Maybe even an art gallery and small theater (not movie) in the area as well. Those things will bring people to the downtown area, especially those coming from out of town, who now just book it for the River Cree.
Downtown has revitilized quite a lot and is undergoing what could be called a boom right now. Certainly in terms of residential starts, resto/bars its up and running. Its not like theres a shortage downtown of nightlife, pubs, clubs, bars restos ect. The Citadel theatre is very nice as well. Its unappreciated imo.

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12-08-2012, 05:03 PM
  #446
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I wasn't being condescending. I even stated "with all due respect".

Sorry you took it that way. I mean what I said, its difficult to carry on a conversation if people think these two instances are similar in anyway. Even in your response you're trying to make a comparable about danger in the two cities? C'mon. Downtown Detroit is one of the worst places on the continent to be in.

I wasn't flaming, name calling, nothing. You're the one now calling me out on this so I suggest you relax.

Its a discussion, no harm, no foul.

You want to discuss this topic. Sure, you know I'll usually respectfully answer questions and debate.

I think if I find anything slightly aggravating its the notion that irresponsible and deplorable badly managed cities like Detroit and Quebec City are so often in these discussions being brought up as models of how or what we should do.

First and foremost I'm a fiscal conservative. I like that I happen to live in a city that is prudent about these things. But really thats the reason you don't hear about Edmonton going bankrupt. Right?

ps you called Edmonton's downtown a "hellhole". I don't much like it myself but you're looking for a reaction saying stuff like that. Go on C2E and say something like that there and see what occurs.
I get what you are saying but are you happy with the status quo when it comes to this city's development. Edmonton can be more than what it is without going broke. I'm not saying the arena deal is going to be the end all be all but it is a start. And if you believe even a little bit of what Katz is selling then this could turn into a large redevelopment of our downtown core. I mean no one blinks an eye when the city/province spends on another school in the burbs or an overpass...and yes this is necessary but it creates a donut city with no appeal for anyone to actually drive downtown. I don't think Edmonton's downtown is a hellhole either as I live in Goldbar and I absolutely love the river valley areas. But as far as development goes, it could be so much more. Detroit on the other hand needs a boost if anything the temporary construction jobs would help. Everyone knows why Detroit is ailing and yes they bigger issues than sports entertainment but if a guy like Ilitch is interested in partnering up you don't turn him away. Just my two cents

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12-08-2012, 05:14 PM
  #447
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I get what you are saying but are you happy with the status quo when it comes to this city's development. Edmonton can be more than what it is without going broke. I'm not saying the arena deal is going to be the end all be all but it is a start. And if you believe even a little bit of what Katz is selling then this could turn into a large redevelopment of our downtown core. I mean no one blinks an eye when the city/province spends on another school in the burbs or an overpass...and yes this is necessary but it creates a donut city with no appeal for anyone to actually drive downtown. I don't think Edmonton's downtown is a hellhole either as I live in Goldbar and I absolutely love the river valley areas. But as far as development goes, it could be so much more. Detroit on the other hand needs a boost if anything the temporary construction jobs would help. Everyone knows why Detroit is ailing and yes they bigger issues than sports entertainment but if a guy like Ilitch is interested in partnering up you don't turn him away. Just my two cents
I wish we had an owner like that. If Katz was making that proportion of contribution I'd have no issues.

Good choice in areas with living in Goldbar. So close to everything and I think they've made some improvements to the water treatment plant too. Really about the only thing I didn't care for too much there. I've cycled a lot in your neck of the woods.

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12-08-2012, 05:29 PM
  #448
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I wish we had an owner like that. If Katz was making that proportion of contribution I'd have no issues.

Good choice in areas with living in Goldbar. So close to everything and I think they've made some improvements to the water treatment plant too. Really about the only thing I didn't care for too much there. I've cycled a lot in your neck of the woods.
Yah there are some stinky times when the wind is just right. We love it though, I moved from Millwoods and never looked back. I hope the city and Katz can come to terms as well. With the kids on the team and possibly a new rink, it could be a good time to be an Oilers fan and an Edmontonian.

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12-08-2012, 11:36 PM
  #449
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I wasn't being condescending. I even stated "with all due respect".

Sorry you took it that way. I mean what I said, its difficult to carry on a conversation if people think these two instances are similar in anyway. Even in your response you're trying to make a comparable about danger in the two cities? C'mon. Downtown Detroit is one of the worst places on the continent to be in.

I wasn't flaming, name calling, nothing. You're the one now calling me out on this so I suggest you relax.

Its a discussion, no harm, no foul.

You want to discuss this topic. Sure, you know I'll usually respectfully answer questions and debate.

I think if I find anything slightly aggravating its the notion that irresponsible and deplorable badly managed cities like Detroit and Quebec City are so often in these discussions being brought up as models of how or what we should do.

First and foremost I'm a fiscal conservative. I like that I happen to live in a city that is prudent about these things. But really thats the reason you don't hear about Edmonton going bankrupt. Right?

ps you called Edmonton's downtown a "hellhole". I don't much like it myself but you're looking for a reaction saying stuff like that. Go on C2E and say something like that there and see what occurs.
It could be for that reason...or, hear me out, could it possibly, just maybe have something to do with that stuff...what's it called again? Oh yeah, Texas Tea.

Pretty sure the black gold has something to do with Edmonton's fortunes, and are you telling me that Detroit or QC would be bankrupt if they had the same amount of natural resources that Alberta has? I doubt it. Just sayin'.

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12-09-2012, 01:21 AM
  #450
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It could be for that reason...or, hear me out, could it possibly, just maybe have something to do with that stuff...what's it called again? Oh yeah, Texas Tea.

Pretty sure the black gold has something to do with Edmonton's fortunes, and are you telling me that Detroit or QC would be bankrupt if they had the same amount of natural resources that Alberta has? I doubt it. Just sayin'.
Detroit and Michigan have had huge economies that would dwarf anything ever seen by a Canadian province. But a car industry that has chronically been so backwards thinking it was still building relative gas gussling edsels while Asian and Euro imports took hold of the entire game for awhile and requiring a massive unprecedented bail out of the automakers that has rarely been seen to that scale in history. The american auto industry was pathetically outdated for decades and thats all on them.

If one looks at the amount of civic, state, and federal debt, and combine the massive bailouts its bloody amazing howmuch one City, region, state has cost US confederation. If you just took all that money and stuck it under a pillow the region would be better off.

Detroit has fairly deserved everything its got. Basically what happens when you don't have a clue how to run your main industry and lose what was your world market to lose. Detroit had such a huge headstart advantage in the auto industry and entirely squandered it. Basically the keynote tale of how the US has failed in world industry and with most of that story still waiting to come.

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