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v.23: The Return of Kyle Lowry

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:36 AM
  #326
Eytinge
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Plus GMs aren't going to be fooled by a few good games by Bargnani. Everyone knows what he is now. A skilled, but lazy and frustrating 7 footer that can't defend or rebound. His trade value won't suddenly increase because he has 2 or 3 good games in a row.

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12-08-2012, 04:14 AM
  #327
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How much more of these beatdowns, and "retooling" aka terrible rebuild half ass effort at tanking but not tanking does this team have to go through before heads roll? I mean this team is in perpetual mediocrity to terrible. We are quickly becoming the Clippers of old. I really want NHL back or MLB to start. At least those teams compete. I can't believe I actually used the Leafs as a positive comparison.

The team has quit on Casey and Colangelo is obviously riding the coattails of his daddy from Phoenix and had rested on his laurels the entire time he's here. He can't build a strong defensive and bulldog mentality team. Only these soft-euro jumpshooting no defense teams. I mean look at the players Colangelo signed and traded for over the years. Kapono, Jones, O'Neal (past his prime), Ford, Jack, Turkoglu (was supposed to be a huge signing but failed miserably), Marion (past his prime), Fields, drafting Bargnani, and a host of other minor deals that don't matter.

None of those players are known for defense and were either past their primes or starting. Either that ore they are very 1 dimensional. Colangelo has no gameplan or a team he wants to set up here. We were supposed to be Phoenix north (which is probably why he brought in Marion and tried to get Nash) but he needs to understand the NBA has changed and ya that Phoenix system only works if you have an MVP calibur piontguard.

Sick of this. UGH!! Rant over.

On a lighter note I saw this at RealGM and thought it was hilarious. Hope you guys enjoy.



Last edited by Hyperglide: 12-08-2012 at 05:27 AM.
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12-08-2012, 10:11 AM
  #328
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Was watching some playoff highlights last night to remember better times



Awesome crowd. Feel like it's going to take a million years before we get back to the playoffs



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12-08-2012, 10:52 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Eytinge View Post
Plus GMs aren't going to be fooled by a few good games by Bargnani. Everyone knows what he is now. A skilled, but lazy and frustrating 7 footer that can't defend or rebound. His trade value won't suddenly increase because he has 2 or 3 good games in a row.
Agreed. Furthermore, they aren't going to be fooled by the stat sheets. What might look like a solid game from Bargnani on the boxscore is often an overall poor effort when you watch the game. Bargnani needs to drop 30+ points for it to be considered a good game for him, considering his lack of ANYTHING other than scoring.

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The team has quit on Casey and Colangelo is obviously riding the coattails of his daddy from Phoenix and had rested on his laurels the entire time he's here. He can't build a strong defensive and bulldog mentality team. Only these soft-euro jumpshooting no defense teams. I mean look at the players Colangelo signed and traded for over the years. Kapono, Jones, O'Neal (past his prime), Ford, Jack, Turkoglu (was supposed to be a huge signing but failed miserably), Marion (past his prime), Fields, drafting Bargnani, and a host of other minor deals that don't matter.

None of those players are known for defense and were either past their primes or starting. Either that ore they are very 1 dimensional. Colangelo has no gameplan or a team he wants to set up here. We were supposed to be Phoenix north (which is probably why he brought in Marion and tried to get Nash) but he needs to understand the NBA has changed and ya that Phoenix system only works if you have an MVP calibur piontguard.
You aren't completely being fair to Colangelo. His father definitely paved the way for Bryan, but if you are talking about Bryan "riding coattails", then he's riding his own. He won Executive of the Year twice (once with the Raps). When he first got here he was considered by most to be one of the best young GMs in the league. Obviously he's track record has plummeted since then, but he's not in the shadow of his father anymore. He's in his own shadow.



And to be fair to him, he's made SOME good moves in his time here. Acquiring TJ Ford was a good move. We got him for Charlie Villanueva, and he hasn't really amounted to much. Charlie V had two seasons with the Bucks (one good, one mediocre), and Ford had two seasons with the Raps (one good, one mediocre). Furthermore, getting rid of Villanueva really let Bosh thrive.

In regards to O'Neal, Marion, and Turkoglu....it's true that neither were very effective at all as Raptors, but in terms of asset management it's really not as bad as people make it out to be. The asset management pretty much in a direct chain: Charlie Villanueva --> TJ Ford --> Jermaine O'Neal --> Shawn Marion --> Hedo Turkoglu --> Leandro Barbosa. Almost all of these deals largely amounted to direct player-for-player deals, with the ONLY signifcant exception being the Roy Hibbert draft pick thrown in for O'Neal. Beyond that one pick, none of the extra pieces/draft picks included in the deals amounted to anything. In hindsight, none of those players made any difference to the team, but it's not like every each acquisition was a loss of significant assets. Considering this string of trades started when Colangelo first arrived and only ended when Barbosa left as a free agent...losing ONE significant asset in a 1st round draft pick that happened to pan out is not as awful as it seems. If you consider each trade as just one part in a series of trades, the Raps got 6 seasons of play while giving up one significant pick.

I'm not saying any of the deals are GOOD deals, I'm just saying that it's not a colossal failure like some people would have you believe.

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12-08-2012, 11:24 AM
  #330
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I saw a mock draft that had us drafting a guy compared to Ray Allen. I mean we need a 3 point shooter, but I'm not sure we have room at the 2 for that. Unless Derozan is moved in the off-season for picks?

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12-08-2012, 11:27 AM
  #331
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Not a failure? Wow. Are you his kid or something. What exactly do you consider his record here? He's basically collected a pay cheque and done absolutely nothing for the team. When you are a GM and you run a bad team and your moves consist of lateral moves, you aren't doing much. He's a horrible GM and should be fired. Not sure how anyone can have anything remotely nice to say about his professional record here in Toronto. Colangelo is a hipster bum.

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12-08-2012, 11:56 AM
  #332
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Not a failure? Wow. Are you his kid or something. What exactly do you consider his record here? He's basically collected a pay cheque and done absolutely nothing for the team. When you are a GM and you run a bad team and your moves consist of lateral moves, you aren't doing much. He's a horrible GM and should be fired. Not sure how anyone can have anything remotely nice to say about his professional record here in Toronto. Colangelo is a hipster bum.
Did you read the post?? I admitted that they were ineffective moves, but they were moves that didn't cost us exactly 1 asset over 6 years. If Colangelo had traded Calderon for Marion, that would be an awful move. If Colangelo had traded Derozan for Turkoglo, that would be an awful move. If he had traded Ed Davis for Barbosa, that would have been an awful move.

IF YOU READ THE POST, you would see that my point was that O'Neal for Marion, then Marion for Turkoglo, then Turkoglu for Barbosa, cost us NO real assets. We didn't give up any significant pieces to make any of these deals happen. Additionally, Villanueva for Ford cost us nothing significant. The ONLY move in this chain that really cost us anything was Ford for O'Neal. Lateral moves? Absolutely. Colossal failure trades? Not really.

Read carefully before you reply. He hasn't made any very GOOD trades, but he hasn't made many of the "Owen Nolan to the Leafs"-esque trades either.


ADDITIONALLY: Colangelo did accomplish some things in his time here. He won Executive of the Year in 2007 for guiding the Raptors the first Atlantic division title in history immediately following a horrible 27W–55L 2005-06 season. It may have been 5 years ago, but Colangelo has done SOMETHING here, and not "collected a pay cheque and done absolutely nothing for the team". Am I a fan of him? No. Do I want him fired now? Yes. Am I so incredibly short-sighted to forget that the contributions he HAS made? No.


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12-08-2012, 12:15 PM
  #333
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Could anyone see a trade that nets us Tyreke Evans for Bargnani + Ross working out.

With Bargnani going to another team for picks (Minne?) and Ross + the picks going to Sacramento for Evans.

It'd get rid of Bargs, give Davis more playing time, then you could try Derozen at the 3 to get a little reshuffle.

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12-08-2012, 12:26 PM
  #334
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Could anyone see a trade that nets us Tyreke Evans for Bargnani + Ross working out.

With Bargnani going to another team for picks (Minne?) and Ross + the picks going to Sacramento for Evans.

It'd get rid of Bargs, give Davis more playing time, then you could try Derozen at the 3 to get a little reshuffle.
Kind of a risky venture, although I guess it fits the mold of a "buy low" opportunity on Evans. Unfortunately, Evans' numbers have decreased steadily in the major categories while getting the same minutes, and he's known for both personality issues and injury history. That's three pretty big red flags for the guy. Definitely a risk.

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12-08-2012, 12:33 PM
  #335
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Kind of a risky venture, although I guess it fits the mold of a "buy low" opportunity on Evans. Unfortunately, Evans' numbers have decreased steadily in the major categories while getting the same minutes, and he's known for both personality issues and injury history. That's three pretty big red flags for the guy. Definitely a risk.
Yea thats true, him and Lowry would get along well with their injury history.

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12-08-2012, 01:04 PM
  #336
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Not a failure? Wow. Are you his kid or something. What exactly do you consider his record here? He's basically collected a pay cheque and done absolutely nothing for the team. When you are a GM and you run a bad team and your moves consist of lateral moves, you aren't doing much. He's a horrible GM and should be fired. Not sure how anyone can have anything remotely nice to say about his professional record here in Toronto. Colangelo is a hipster bum.
But he looks great in those finely tailored suits from Italy.

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12-08-2012, 01:41 PM
  #337
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I've just had it with this coaching staff and management. I can only put up with so much failure.

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12-08-2012, 02:19 PM
  #338
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Was watching some playoff highlights last night to remember better times



Awesome crowd. Feel like it's going to take a million years before we get back to the playoffs

I wish there were more pixels, but damn those were exciting to watch. Especially VC just absolutely going off in that game. Even if you hated basketball, I can't imagine being from Toronto, watching that game, and not being up out of your chair with excitement.

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12-08-2012, 02:24 PM
  #339
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I find it hilarious that Dwane Casey has gone from the savior of the franchise to a whipping boy who needs to be fired/removed with everything else in less than a quarter of the season.

You want to hold Colangelo accountable for failing to build a better roster? Fine. You want to hold Bargnani responsible for not improving and becoming worthy of that #1 pick? fine. But turning on Casey so quickly is hilarious. It's good to know that people aren't overreacting or anything.

I also love the tank talk. If you can't handle losing right now, how are you going to put up with the 2+ years of it necessary to tank and get multiple high picks? This is one of the problems I have with tank strategies from a fan standpoint. People are quick to jump on the tank bandwagon as soon as there's the slightest hint of slippage or lack of competitiveness, but almost everyone lacks the patience to dutifully see the tank they wanted through to its logical conclusion. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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12-08-2012, 03:52 PM
  #340
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I definitely put most of the blame on BC since he has not provided Casey with a talented enough roster, but I still question some of Casey's decisions. I feel like he hasn't been holding players accountable this season. There have been multiple times this season where Davis was playing really well and he was replaced with a struggling Bargs. Does Casey or our assistant come up with the offensive plays after time-outs? Because who ever makes the plays make terrible plays. Maybe that's just the players not executing what the coach wants, but it's pretty concerning. The team is looking more and more lost and I can't help, but get the sense that Casey isn't hard enough on the players about this. Too many times on offense one guy is trying to do it all by themselves, and on defense we leave wide open threes and constantly leave open lanes to the net. He doesn't seem overly concerned in his interviews and likes to point out the problem, but then our team just repeats it the next game. I won't be too hard on him about this part though since I have no clue how hard he is on the players in practice. Personally I think he does best as an assistant coach that just focuses on the defense. Hopefully BC is fired, and the new GM brings in some talent for Casey and then Casey proves me wrong.

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12-08-2012, 04:49 PM
  #341
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"This is a strange season for me with too many ups and downs. One night I score 34 points, then just 4, then 21, again 4 and last game 23. It sounds like a joke. When things go wrong, also occurs a psychological component, but cannot be a justification. The stimuli must be found as well in the worst situations. We are playing badly and when all the team plays a bad basketball, even you, as a player, are affected. Rumors on me being traded? I have heard them. It is clear that when you play bad, the first thing you think is to shop your best player. The situation as a team is bad. After all the expectations last summer, the result is that we keep losing. We missed the playoffs the last four years and we have the second worst record in the NBA after the Wizards. Last season, despite the losses, we had a defensive identity. We won the match through the defense. This season we don't even have this. We alternate good performances with other games in which we concede a lot of points to out opponents. Honestly, I do not know the reason. We have new players, almost the entire starting five changed. We changed the key roles as the point guard and the center. But we are only at the beginning of the season. We still have time to correct this negative trend".
http://www.sportando.net/eng/usa/nba...situation.html


So there you have it.

Bargnani's ****** play is everybody elses fault.

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12-08-2012, 04:52 PM
  #342
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or wait...

Quote:
Dwane Casey admitted that the Raptors considered changing the starting lineup by inserting Amir Johnson for Jonas Valanciunas, but decided not to after reviewing game film of Wednesday's game.

“I hinted at possible lineup changes, but again I think that would send the wrong message,” he said. “We want to be patient with our young kid (Valanciunas) and sometimes it’s frustrating. Sometimes he’s frustrated a little bit but he’s growing. As many mistakes as he’s making, he’s also growing.”
We've been wrong the whole time.

It Val that's been frustating to watch, not Bargnani.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...tarting_Lineup

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12-08-2012, 07:12 PM
  #343
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I find it hilarious that Dwane Casey has gone from the savior of the franchise to a whipping boy who needs to be fired/removed with everything else in less than a quarter of the season.

You want to hold Colangelo accountable for failing to build a better roster? Fine. You want to hold Bargnani responsible for not improving and becoming worthy of that #1 pick? fine. But turning on Casey so quickly is hilarious. It's good to know that people aren't overreacting or anything.

I also love the tank talk. If you can't handle losing right now, how are you going to put up with the 2+ years of it necessary to tank and get multiple high picks? This is one of the problems I have with tank strategies from a fan standpoint. People are quick to jump on the tank bandwagon as soon as there's the slightest hint of slippage or lack of competitiveness, but almost everyone lacks the patience to dutifully see the tank they wanted through to its logical conclusion. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I don't think Casey is the main reason we're losing. We're losing because of a lack of talent, or because we have some talent but it doesn't fit together as a roster. BC is the first and main priority to go. Bargnani is second, and that will only happen when BC is fired.

Casey to me is a bit fake with his accountability talk because it contradicts how he treats ED and Bargnani. ED will get a double double in 15 minutes and be out there when the Raptors make a comeback in the 4th, but then he gets yanked, Bargnani comes in and chucks 3 pointers while the lead slips away.

I think the best course of action would be to fire BC, let Stefanski be the interim GM and conduct a search and hire a GM from a successful front office like OKC or SA before the draft.

As for tanking, that's why I was so frustrated last year because we wasted a prime tanking year only to finish 8th. MKG or Barnes fit this roster so much better than Ross does. I was fully committed to a tank after Bosh left, and was hoping for a deep tank (like, top 3 picks bad) and would have been fine tanking this year as well until BC traded this year's pick to "accelerate the rebuild".

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12-08-2012, 08:04 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by The Nemesis View Post
I find it hilarious that Dwane Casey has gone from the savior of the franchise to a whipping boy who needs to be fired/removed with everything else in less than a quarter of the season.

You want to hold Colangelo accountable for failing to build a better roster? Fine. You want to hold Bargnani responsible for not improving and becoming worthy of that #1 pick? fine. But turning on Casey so quickly is hilarious. It's good to know that people aren't overreacting or anything.

I also love the tank talk. If you can't handle losing right now, how are you going to put up with the 2+ years of it necessary to tank and get multiple high picks? This is one of the problems I have with tank strategies from a fan standpoint. People are quick to jump on the tank bandwagon as soon as there's the slightest hint of slippage or lack of competitiveness, but almost everyone lacks the patience to dutifully see the tank they wanted through to its logical conclusion. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Who was this post directed at? Or are you just generalizing the typical Raptors bandwagon fans sentiment from what you read on other message boards or on tsn.ca and Facebook or other social media, or was this at a specific member on these boards? You say 'You' a lot like this is directed at someone specifically?

While I never liked the Casey signing from day 1 (I wanted Lawrence Frank lol ya like he turned out much better) and didn't want him as option number 1, I still think he's a pretty good coach. But when the team is failing this badly there are going to be a lot of fingers pointed and obviously the Head Coach is gonna be the 1st one looked at. I don't think all the blame falls on Casey in fact I would probably put him 4th down on the rung for people to blame for this atrocious organizations record and progress, not including ownership.

The team collectively has failed and Casey has to be blamed partially. He's a total 'yes' man which is why Colangelo probably hired him, and doesn't stick up for his players on terrible calls, his offensive sets are laughable bad, his teams don't communicate on the defensive end, he constantly gets out coached in 4th quarters and his rotations are terrible. None of these things you can deny.

Also he was brought in to be a defensive specialist coach as we were probably the worst defensive team in NBA history the last year Triano coached and while he made us a mediocre defense team last year, somethings changed this year. No reason why the Jazz should go off for 131 points and score so well from the 3 pt. line without their best player (Jefferson) and one of their other stars (Favours).

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12-08-2012, 08:19 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Eytinge View Post
Casey to me is a bit fake with his accountability talk because it contradicts how he treats ED and Bargnani. ED will get a double double in 15 minutes and be out there when the Raptors make a comeback in the 4th, but then he gets yanked, Bargnani comes in and chucks 3 pointers while the lead slips away.
The same can be said about the majority of people in pro-sports coaching/management. Coaches and GM's, in general, don't like talking to the media because it often gets used against them. And it's understandable, really....you can't ask a GM/Coach to fully articulate themselves properly on every facet of their respective job in a short 5-minute interview...yet every word gets thrown back against them constantly.


The problem I see with benching Bargnani is that it basically resigns ourselves to scoring ~85 points per game, and it really stresses Derozan and Lowry to put up numbers. Both Derozan and Lowry have shown flashes of being able to "carry" the team, but not consistently. I think benching Bargnani would give us better rebounding, better interior defense, better transitional play....but an altogether low-scoring offense. I'm not saying it's a BAD idea since I really hate Bargnani, but I'm just not sure if Derozan/Lowry can handle the extra load placed on their shoulders.

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12-08-2012, 09:15 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Hyperglide View Post
Who was this post directed at? Or are you just generalizing the typical Raptors bandwagon fans sentiment from what you read on other message boards or on tsn.ca and Facebook or other social media, or was this at a specific member on these boards? You say 'You' a lot like this is directed at someone specifically?
I'm pretty sure he meant the proverbial "you". And I agree with his sentiments. The remainder of this rantis also based towards the collective message-board "you".

The "hive-mind" of message boards like this one and RealGM are way too in love with the idea of a young players. To altogether too many posters, a 17-year old that dominates college ball is more valuable than a 29-year old professional player. It likely has alot to do with the demographic that internet message boards cater to (that being males aged 16-22), but anybody below age-18 seems to get an immediate pass to being better than 30-year old guys that have spent 10 years in the pros. On hfboards, it's very evident. Every draft prospect taken in the first two years of the NHL draft are suddenly held in higher regard than a player that's played professionally for 5+ years.

I agree with Nemesis that people that preach about "blowing-it-up" really aren't aware of what they are asking for. They read online about a 17-year-old, and all of a sudden they are preaching two years of absolute misery to get him (Wiggins). EVEN if we do draft Wiggins....we would likely have another year or two before we could build a winning team around him. So we are looking at 4-5 years of misery before the team is successful. To a highschool raptors fan, this seems like a sweet plan. To people that are more mature in their outlook, this is not reasonable at all. We'd have a Bosh scenario all over again. Or worse yet, we'd have a GregOden/BrandonRoy scenario. Or EVEN WORSE, we won't win the lottery and we won get the guy we want. "Tanking" is an absolutely ridiculous strategy and anybody that mentions it is not worthy of my consideration.

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12-08-2012, 10:48 PM
  #347
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Colangelo defended the talent level of his team.

“I don’t believe this is a talent issue,” he said. “I think it’s a lack of focus, attention to detail, consistency of competing. We’ve shown flashes of very good basketball, just not good enough to pull out games when we need to pull them out.”
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...As_Embarassing

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12-08-2012, 10:53 PM
  #348
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First step is denial

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12-08-2012, 11:10 PM
  #349
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Attention to detail, consistency, competitiveness. I think that IS talent. It is what separates offensive talent from overall-talent. It's basically what separates Bargnani from Millsap. It is why people around the league look at Kawhi Leonard and Iman Schumpert with a bit more respect than Derozan (up to this year). It's why Teague and Mo. Williams are on the same level as Calderon.



If you consider talent as pure scoring, then yes Raptors are plenty talented. If you look at overall talent, then Raptors suffer.

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12-08-2012, 11:14 PM
  #350
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Where's this "talent" that Colangelo speaks of? What a delusional fool, it might be best to hope for another blowout so his firing is quickened.

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