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Wild future vs. Oilers future

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Old
12-08-2012, 04:19 AM
  #251
thestonedkoala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karitimes View Post
Not true, at the time it was a steal and and it was quite apparent it cost the team no part of their future. The only question was could Dallas salvage Kari from poor health and even poorer training habits.

The first part of your sentence may have been correct at one point Vish was a good D prospect. So was Barker. But when it came down to the timing of Kari's acquistion, like I said, it didn't cost alot.
A former 1st round pick isn't a lot?

It wasn't a steal. Lehtonen was heading toward becoming a bust and at the time, Dallas had an abundance of good defensive prospects but Vish was one of their top prospects. He never panned out, that's what happens.

So would you be okay trading Klefbom for a goaltender like Lehtonen? Hell would you trade Klefbom for Helenius? That would be a similar situation. A solid defensive prospect for a former 1st round pick that isn't working out.

BTW here's some articles about the trade at the time:
http://www.defendingbigd.com/2010/2/...ehtonen-traded

Quote:
First, I understand the pain and anger involved with a team's number one prospect is traded away for an injury prone goaltender who is going to be a restricted free agent. But here's my guess on why the Stars were willing to part with Vishnevksiy: I don't think that Joe Nieuwendyk was as high on him as the rest of us were. The Stars have had the chance to see what he can do a few times this season, and he never did much to force the Stars to give him more games. And while he was a starter in the AHL all-star game, his numbers weren't what you would expect from a player billed as the next Sergei Zubov. On the other hand, Nieuwendyk has come out and said several times this season that the team is very high on Philip Larsen, a big defensemen playing in Sweden.

As far as Kari Lehtonen goes..well, the Stars are acquiring a goaltender with a ton of potential. The injury history is troubling, but there's a chance that a move to Dallas lights a fire in him and he lives up to the goaltender many thought he was while playing in the AHL.

If the Stars were going to acquire a goaltender any more established than Lehtonen, then the price would most likely have been higher. Be careful to judge this trade right away; this was a gamble by the Stars but it has the potential to be a great move. Or it could be a bust. We'll see.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=736821

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
Surely Nieuwendyk isnt dumb enough to actually send them Vish.
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Originally Posted by Stars99Lobo37 View Post
Please don't be Ivan.
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Originally Posted by TangoMcBride View Post
NOOOOOO!

Time to start a fire Nieuwy thread.
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Originally Posted by starsfan24 View Post
It may be Ivan. Oh dear god.
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Originally Posted by None More Negative* View Post
Wow, Joe is a lot dumber than I thought. Not that I mind getting Lehtonen, but should he really have cost IV?
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Originally Posted by txomisc View Post
Joe is going to really look stupid and I doubt ownership is going to be happy with him if/when the stars have to trade/waive Auld because theres no place for Turco to go.
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Originally Posted by DaStars99 View Post
a little overpayment to say the least
I was mistaken; at one point Vish was the top rated prospect for Dallas for some sites.

So, trying to change the story on this trade and saying it wasn't a lot for an injury prone goaltender that was still developing and may never developed, is a lie.


Last edited by thestonedkoala: 12-08-2012 at 04:28 AM.
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Old
12-08-2012, 05:01 AM
  #252
Karitimes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
A former 1st round pick isn't a lot?
For the third time, no, a former late first round pick who is obviously not a part of the teams future is nothing to give up for a shot at what the GM thought was an elite goalie in a bad situation. If it was a future 1st round pick it's another story.

Vishnevsky was a former 20 something overall pick who was not going to sniff the NHL beyond the cup of coffee he'd seen up until the time he was dealt. So if he's worth alot, by your same logic Cam Barker, who is now on an AHL contract, must be worth alot alot because he was a 4th overall pick and actually played a fairly significant time in the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
It wasn't a steal. Lehtonen was heading toward becoming a bust and at the time, Dallas had an abundance of good defensive prospects but Vish was one of their top prospects. He never panned out, that's what happens.
So because Lehtonen was heading toward being a bust and your friends told you so it must have been so. And it's clearly ok to characterize Lehtonen as a bust even though he was a 2nd overall pick on a one-way contract, but no way would we want to characterize Vishnevsky the first rounder on a two-way in such a way. But to be clear this wasn't and still isn't a steal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
So would you be okay trading Klefbom for a goaltender like Lehtonen? Hell would you trade Klefbom for Helenius? That would be a similar situation. A solid defensive prospect for a former 1st round pick that isn't working out.
I don't care about Klefbom at all. I don't pretend I know things about players I don't care about. For all I know he's the next Vishnevsky.

Edit: So I looked into Helenius with his 1 NHL game. Up to the point of Lehtonen being dealt to Dallas he'd won everything he could win in the SMLiiga as a teenager and had played 200 games in the NHL with half of those being wins on a bad team. I don't really see how Riku's situation would be comparable to Lehtonen's, but to answer your question, in this particular instance you'd probably do just as well to hang on to Klefbom because chances are he'll play more than the 5 games Vishnevsky did or more than the 1 Helenius did.


Last edited by Karitimes: 12-08-2012 at 05:40 AM.
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12-08-2012, 11:43 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by victor View Post
Or you could have picked 5 years:

http://www.topcornerhockey.com/module_1-5yrs.html

Edmonton #15, Minnesota #20.

Please note: This site hasn't been updated since 2007. Sam Gagner is at 79 games...
Yeah, I saw that right after. Just didn't care enough to fix it. It was more of a refference point for Wild and Oiler fans.

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12-08-2012, 11:48 AM
  #254
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I'll take the Wild.

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12-08-2012, 11:57 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
While signing Eberle was great, I question Hall. Two seasons but he didn't play even 70 games. That is of some concern for a guy that is carrying a 6 million dollar cap hit.
The Hall signing was a great deal right now and has the potential to turn into an absolute steal in a few years.

The fact that you think Eberle >> Hall shows that you aren't an Oiler fan and have no idea what you are talking about.

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12-08-2012, 12:13 PM
  #256
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I find it entertaining that everyone assumes EDM is destined for greatness because of the last 3 years of 1st overall picks. Anything can happen. Hall / RNH / Yak / Eberle / Schultz / all have great potential but will have to carry the load for the entire roster to be successful and they cannot afford to have major injuries.... there is no doubt they have the better of the elite level talent, and that should translate to several goals and games won but I don't see championships in their future with the D and goalie core they currently have. EDM has plenty of D prospects, i'll just have to wait and see how they do..... I feel EDM is still another draft and free agents away from serious talk of being great within 3 years (IMO) ...

Minnesota has amazing balance right now and are waiting for prospects to emerge as role skaters. MN can be very competitive right now, EDM can't... EDM needs to grow and could see great success in the next 3 years, where MN should have success till 2020.

Pending what happens with the 2013 draft and lockout, the Wild could get insanely lucky and end up with a top 5 pick (who knows but it is possible). Now if they can lock up either prospect from Halifax, Seth Jones or Barkov, maybe even someone like, Nichushkin or Pulock or insert your favorite prospect not named above... you might have to tip the prospect talent pool to MN favor....

Oil fans will say EDM / Wild fans will say MN... I am just happy to watch these two teams face each other over the next 10 seasons as it could grow to be the best crop's of talent in the league. Crazy amount of proven / potential skill on both rosters.

ramble over

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12-08-2012, 12:17 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
The Hall signing was a great deal right now and has the potential to turn into an absolute steal in a few years.

The fact that you think Eberle >> Hall shows that you aren't an Oiler fan and have no idea what you are talking about.

it also has the potential to turn into a laughable move by Oil management, and one that hinders the success of the franchise if Hall remains injured throughout the length of the contract.

I can't imagine that being the case, but it was a very risky move giving him that much for not putting up the numbers that warrant the amount given to him. EDM is paying Hall for potential, could work out great, could backfire, could end up being a good deal for both if Hall ends up being just an okay 1st overall pick.

Too early to tell but it isn't a great deal now like you claim... it's great for Hall and a fair deal for Oil management but still too much $$$ for what he is producing today / yesterday

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12-08-2012, 02:25 PM
  #258
thestonedkoala
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Originally Posted by Karitimes View Post
For the third time, no, a former late first round pick who is obviously not a part of the teams future is nothing to give up for a shot at what the GM thought was an elite goalie in a bad situation. If it was a future 1st round pick it's another story.
How do you know at the time, Vish wasn't part of their future? You're looking at it from the context that Vish was a bust. At the time, he was the number 1 Dallas prospect and a former AHL All-Star. He wasn't a guy like Brett Connelly. He was a top prospect. For the fans for Dallas, it was a huge risk and a huge payment for a guy that was heading toward a bust. If Vish turned out to be the next Mike Green or at least a top 4 defenseman and Lehtonen never caught on, it would have been a terrible deal.

Quote:
Vishnevsky was a former 20 something overall pick who was not going to sniff the NHL beyond the cup of coffee he'd seen up until the time he was dealt. So if he's worth alot, by your same logic Cam Barker, who is now on an AHL contract, must be worth alot alot because he was a 4th overall pick and actually played a fairly significant time in the NHL.
How do you know he was never going to sniff the AHL? How do you know that Dallas didn't think of him as part of their future but decided to move him instead because they needed a goaltender more than a defenseman and decided to take that risk? Again, you're looking at it in the context of now instead of then.

Barker is no longer a prospect and has already tapped out his potential. Big difference than a NUMBER 1 PROSPECT AT THE TIME.

Quote:
So because Lehtonen was heading toward being a bust and your friends told you so it must have been so. And it's clearly ok to characterize Lehtonen as a bust even though he was a 2nd overall pick on a one-way contract, but no way would we want to characterize Vishnevsky the first rounder on a two-way in such a way. But to be clear this wasn't and still isn't a steal?


Lehtonen had played 200 games at that point. He was looking like a bust because of his injury problems and the fact he wasn't that great for a 2nd overall pick. It was a major risk at the time for Dallas. That was the facts at the time.

Vish was an up and coming defenseman for the Dallas Stars. He showed enormous potential in the AHL and had played very little in the NHL, so the prospects were high that he could become a top 4 defenseman. He never did. But Atlanta rather take that unknown risk than the known risk of Lehtonen becoming a bust and going back to Europe.

The problem is, you're looking at it from a context of now instead of then.

If Rask himself had busted and Raycroft actually re-captured his game, would you consider that a huge payment? Rask at the time was an unknown goaltender while Raycroft had won the Calder. So in the same context, Rask for Raycroft was not a huge overpayment.

Quote:
in this particular instance you'd probably do just as well to hang on to Klefbom because chances are he'll play more than the 5 games Vishnevsky did or more than the 1 Helenius did.
But at the time Vishnevsky was traded, how do you know how many games he would have played? How do we know Klefbom isn't going to bust?

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12-08-2012, 02:37 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by LordFletcher View Post
it also has the potential to turn into a laughable move by Oil management, and one that hinders the success of the franchise if Hall remains injured throughout the length of the contract.

I can't imagine that being the case, but it was a very risky move giving him that much for not putting up the numbers that warrant the amount given to him. EDM is paying Hall for potential, could work out great, could backfire, could end up being a good deal for both if Hall ends up being just an okay 1st overall pick.

Too early to tell but it isn't a great deal now like you claim... it's great for Hall and a fair deal for Oil management but still too much $$$ for what he is producing today / yesterday
Its also risky to not sign the face of the franchise. Its a symbolic move too, signing the player everyone goes off of. Cant give Eberle a deal and not Hall.

Rather have him be overpaid now by locked up than running into a Kessel situation where your star player might walk

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12-08-2012, 02:50 PM
  #260
thestonedkoala
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
The Hall signing was a great deal right now and has the potential to turn into an absolute steal in a few years.
Reminds me of signing Koivu.

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12-08-2012, 02:54 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Its also risky to not sign the face of the franchise. Its a symbolic move too, signing the player everyone goes off of. Cant give Eberle a deal and not Hall.

Rather have him be overpaid now by locked up than running into a Kessel situation where your star player might walk
Do you actually think Hall was or would be going anywhere?

They could have signed him for less is all..... No doubt do I believe both wanted to make a deal one year earlier than they had to, but EDM paid a bit too much but then again, they have the $$$ for now so no real harm done. unless he is injured all the time, but that can't happen.... can it? JK

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12-08-2012, 02:57 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
Reminds me of signing Koivu.


Koivu is getting paid more than his statistic value but was worth everything to the Wild at the time.

Hall is young and I can't imagine he was ever going anywhere

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12-08-2012, 03:19 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by LordFletcher View Post
Do you actually think Hall was or would be going anywhere?

They could have signed him for less is all..... No doubt do I believe both wanted to make a deal one year earlier than they had to, but EDM paid a bit too much but then again, they have the $$$ for now so no real harm done. unless he is injured all the time, but that can't happen.... can it? JK
It would have been a weird situation signing Eberle for more than Hall in the same signing year. I imagine it might cause tensations that could affect the team in the future. Maybe Eberles deal was rushed to since he came over a impressive year. But being a fan from Edmonton, Id much rather have large contracts then no players. Adter years of getting burned its good to see players sign here long term. Other teams may find the contracts bad but I breathed a sign of relief

If he doesnt not improve at all due to injuries that his large contract will only be for six more years. They could fit in RNH's, Yakupovs and Shultz's deal around it. Worst case scenerio.

I think the worst think would be to cause tension in the organization and ripping apart your core. Thats impossible to fix

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12-08-2012, 04:00 PM
  #264
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Koivu is getting paid more than his statistic value but was worth everything to the Wild at the time.

Hall is young and I can't imagine he was ever going anywhere
That's eerily similar to how most Oilers fan would describe Hall's deal.

Hall means everything to the Oilers. Their whole identity changes when he's in the line-up. It's only a matter of time until he's named captain.

He's easily the team's most valuable player and is being paid as such.

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12-09-2012, 12:45 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
It would have been a weird situation signing Eberle for more than Hall in the same signing year. I imagine it might cause tensations that could affect the team in the future. Maybe Eberles deal was rushed to since he came over a impressive year. But being a fan from Edmonton, Id much rather have large contracts then no players. Adter years of getting burned its good to see players sign here long term. Other teams may find the contracts bad but I breathed a sign of relief

If he doesnt not improve at all due to injuries that his large contract will only be for six more years. They could fit in RNH's, Yakupovs and Shultz's deal around it. Worst case scenerio.

I think the worst think would be to cause tension in the organization and ripping apart your core. Thats impossible to fix
I agree. Great points

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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
That's eerily similar to how most Oilers fan would describe Hall's deal.

Hall means everything to the Oilers. Their whole identity changes when he's in the line-up. It's only a matter of time until he's named captain.

He's easily the team's most valuable player and is being paid as such.
I never looked at it that way, I guess been to distant to the situation.... Can't disagree with paying him the big bucks then

Thanks for the info guys

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12-09-2012, 02:14 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
If he doesnt not improve at all due to injuries that his large contract will only be for six more years. They could fit in RNH's, Yakupovs and Shultz's deal around it. Worst case scenerio.
Even if he doesn't improve at all due to injuries he's still a damn good 1st-line player and worth a pretty good contract

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