I don't blame Bettman at all, I actually applaud him on his actions tonight.
Honest, raw emotion from someone who wants hockey to be played.
I agree. Bettman is getting a bit of a flak for his temperment during the the presser, but this is the closest I have ever been to being a 'fan' of his.
As a Jets fan, a Winnipegger who has been conditioned to hate Bettman, that's huge.
Majority of the hate is directed towards Hainsey who unlike many many other players has been actively seeking a resolution to the lockout. Yet for some reason he is receiving all the hate because he's front and center on TSN every night.
Multiple other players have been spotlighted speaking their minds and as far as I've seen the majority of their views resemble the same as the entire PA, and yet the person representing them is to blame more than everyone else because he's there everyday?....
Then there was Tuesday when the NHL and PA met without their respective leaders and garnered more optimism than we've seen throughout this entire lockout. And Hainsey was in that room from the beginning until talking to the media after at 1am.
Then everything goes to **** after Fehr and Bettman return and the hate is back on the guy representing the entire PA while Bogo is off hunting and tweeting, Ladd and Slater are skating around giving 2 minute snips to reporters and everyone else is off in the KHL.
It all seems very political to me, you see an ad on the TV and the majority buys into anything and everything they hear rather than coming to their own conclusions.
Majority of the hate is directed towards Hainsey who unlike many many other players has been actively seeking a resolution to the lockout. Yet for some reason he is receiving all the hate because he's front and center on TSN every night.
Multiple other players have been spotlighted speaking their minds and as far as I've seen the majority of their views resemble the same as the entire PA, and yet the person representing them is to blame more than everyone else because he's there everyday?....
Then there was Tuesday when the NHL and PA met without their respective leaders and garnered more optimism than we've seen throughout this entire lockout. And Hainsey was in that room from the beginning until talking to the media after at 1am.
Then everything goes to **** after Fehr and Bettman return and the hate is back on the guy representing the entire PA while Bogo is off hunting and tweeting, Ladd and Slater are skating around giving 2 minute snips to reporters and everyone else is off in the KHL.
It all seems very political to me, you see an ad on the TV and the majority buys into anything and everything they hear rather than coming to their own conclusions.
I agree with you, Lynk. I am not focusing my anger on Ron Hainsey, rather all of the players that are spouting the flawed PA message.
I for one will hold no grudges after it's over and will continue to enjoy the Hains' 6 goal games.
I don't think anyone blames Hainsey for what happened this past week. My problem with him stems mostly from the interview he did on 1290 in which he came off like a whiny little brat. It sort of perfectly encapsulated my impression of the PA - a bunch of children being told what to do and toeing the line they've been told to. In interviews, he spouts these banal statements that never actually say anything - he'll comment on something like Bettman's last presser by saying "well, the owners seem to be seeing things differently from us" and thats it. How bout some numbers Ron? Tell us what Bettmen said that was misleading or wrong becuase I can sure tell you what Fehr said. He also seems to have a hard time keeping his cool in negotiations. I've heard his name mentioned several times in reference to *****y exchanges with one owner or another.
But no, I won't be booing him once the lockout ends. He's got a job to do and he's doing it the best he can right now. I just don't agree with him...
Indulge me. Since we're short on news, I thought I'd review my armchair analysis and predictions, from Oct 20:
Quote: Originally Posted by scelaton Oct 20/12 (condensed):
I just ran my own numbers quickly...Here are my abbreviated premises and conclusions:
1)The deal must be 50/50 and existing contracts must be honoured. Those 2 are now givens. The only issues are, over what period of time and who is paying?
2)To achieve the above (ie, 50/50 and making existing contracts 'whole') would require ~ 440 million dollars of deferred salary over the life of the new CBA. That is the amount of money currently in dispute--peanuts, in the face of a business that will generate well over 20 billion in the next 5-6 years.
3)If each party commits to splitting this amount, that's 220 mill each, over, say, 6 years.
4)For the NHL, that's just over a 1 million per team per year over the life of a 6-year deal, much of which could easily come from the rich teams (rev sharing), with no discernible impact at all.
Summary: There is a deal to be made here, requiring very little movement by both parties. It would be completely irrational and destructive to miss this opportunity. Therefore, I would conclude that a deal will be consummated within a week. If not, I believe the NHL will conclude that they do not have a partner with whom they can work. The real damage will begin shortly thereafter for the players and Fehr's fate will be sealed.
I was not too off the mark on the make whole number. Fehr now says it's $395 million and wants the NHL to pay it all. I thought it would be $440 million, split two ways, over a six year CBA.
My estimate would have cost each team ~$1.22 million per year over 6 years. The NHL's new offer ($300 mill over 10 years) will cost $ 1 million per team per year. Fehr's demands would cost~$1.31 million per team per year IF amortized over 10 years. These differences are completely inconsequential.
My biggest boo-boo was predicting that rational thinking would lead to consumating a deal quickly. After squandering all this time and a half-billion in salaries, insanity rules the day. I do think that the owners have all but written off Fehr and can't imagine the players will tolerate him not cutting a deal very soon.
On the the issues that remain, here are my new predictions:
1) The NHL will say: There's $300 mill on the table over 10 years ($30 mill per year) in make-whole; you want a shorter contract, fine, but the $$ are commensurately less. An 8 year CBA will get you $240 in make- whole. Your call, NHL PA, but nothing less than 8 years.
2)The NHL will give on player contract length--to 6 years (8 for 'team's own'), but strictly enforce a 5% variance limit on annual salary. With a variance limit, the salary length dispute is moot.
3)A deal will be made. As completely wasteful as this process has been to date, there is really nothing material to bargain about, when you parse it out. A bit more posturing is all that's left.
4)With great restraint, I will pass on further psychoanalysis of Fehr. Suffice to say, he has not done the PA any good in this. Hainsey is a good guy and a smart guy, who is working as best he can with the cards he was dealt (for those of you who play Hearts, think of Fehr as the Queen of Spades). The mistakes were made a long time ago, by the people who orchestrated dumping a moderate Exec Director and replacing him with you-know -who.
Last edited by scelaton: 12-08-2012 at 01:52 PM.
Reason: couldn't resist the Hearts line
AT this stage of the process my support has turned to the owners. I think Donald Fehr is very good at what he does and understands business but much like his Commissioner counterpart, I think he (they loose the context in who the product really is for.
As for Hainsey, the guy is standing up for what he believes in. In my books there is harm or foul in that at at. Not even saying that because he is a Jet, I'm saying that because I can respect leadership and commitment to a set of beliefs. The only difference between guys like him (and all players for that matter) and Fehr/Bettman is that he (they) are the product. I don't think it is fair to cut guys like him down for taking a very difficult stance on some very important issues. In fact, I would say he has earned some new respect for me (not that it matters really).
And his contract is important for what reason exactly?.. It's not as if this is news all of us don't already know.
Agree. Here's my own personal take on this:
Hainsey signed at an advantageous time - can't fault him for that. His cap hit doesn't really affect the Jets at this point, so for me it's of no concern. Would he receive a similar contract in future? Quite possibly: depends on the FA market at the time. If he can take advantage of timing again, my hats off to him. In the meantime,, he's filling a role for the Jets that CAN'T currently be filled by anyone else in their system, so like him or not, he's an important cog at this juncture.
Regarding statements that he's made, while I may disagree with his position, I vehemently stand behind his right to make them. Once the lockout is over, I'll happily cheer him on as a Jet as a very good #4, or a great #5, depending on how things shake out. He's simply doing what he's been tasked to do by the NHLPA / his brethren.
Contract negotiations should never be taken personally - it's a necessary evil that should (in my opinion) be viewed as separate from the job that you're contracted to perform. It can get ugly on both sides, but that's simply business. When this CBA ugliness is over, I'll forget the negotiations, and get back to enjoying hockey. It's too much fun and too much of an escapism thing for me to "hold grudges" on either the NHL or NHLPA side.
Hainsey has proven himself to be a greedy, whiny person who doesn't give a damn about the fans as long as he can keep his massively overpaid contract.
I, for one, hope he never plays another game as a Jet, and will not cheer anything he does. He is the player version of Fehr and embodies everything I hate about the NHLPA. Greed, greed, greed.
As Jets Fans, we gunna do something first game back?
Wear something, Chant, Be silent, vacate the seats?
I'm going to go and enjoy the game. I intend to approach the first game of the upcoming season the same way I did last season.
Everyone talks about making a point and engaging in some gimmick to show our frustration. All that will do is lessen MY experience.
People who want to boycott games, or not cheer etc feel free. But ultimately you're the one losing out not the owners and not the players.
Also if we want hockey back so bad, why wouldn't we fully enjoy it once its back?
Hainsey has proven himself to be a greedy, whiny person who doesn't give a damn about the fans as long as he can keep his massively overpaid contract.
I, for one, hope he never plays another game as a Jet, and will not cheer anything he does. He is the player version of Fehr and embodies everything I hate about the NHLPA. Greed, greed, greed.
Collective bargaining talks are about what be made fair and equitable for both sides. You need to hardline a few points because the process is about give and take. I think your assumption of him as a player rep is way off base and my guess, and I don't think I'm wrong here, is that you have never been at a bargaining table. While I disagree with the players stance, I can not fault anyone for being involved in the prices. It is their right and like I said before, I give Hainsey full marks for taking on some tough issues against some very tough individuals.
And his contract is important for what reason exactly?.. It's not as if this is news all of us don't already know.
There seemed to be some confusion about how much money he made last year. People kept citing $4 million or $4.5 (his cap hit).
Seeing as this thread is about the lockout, and Hainsey's on the negotiating committee for the players, and he's a 4th-at-best D-man on any team in the league, and he made $5 million last year...so you could make the case he's a poster-boy for one of the problems with the current CBA. Anyway, his contract seems somewhat relevant to the discussion.
Even the Hainsey-bashing (or the Hainsey-apologizing) is relevant to this thread. Some of the players have said things over the course of the lockout and it's going to affect how their perceived by fans, owners, media, etc.
One good thing (maybe two) may come out of this lockout and probably lost season will be the end of the Hainsey (Antropov) run in Winnipeg. Hope Hainsey can get into the law school of his choice and the other guy (Antro) can finish his fine career in the KHL. Best of luck both of you.
There seemed to be some confusion about how much money he made last year. People kept citing $4 million or $4.5 (his cap hit).
Seeing as this thread is about the lockout, and Hainsey's on the negotiating committee for the players, and he's a 4th-at-best D-man on any team in the league, and he made $5 million last year...so you could make the case he's a poster-boy for one of the problems with the current CBA. Anyway, his contract seems somewhat relevant to the discussion.
Even the Hainsey-bashing (or the Hainsey-apologizing) is relevant to this thread. Some of the players have said things over the course of the lockout and it's going to affect how their perceived by fans, owners, media, etc.
Yup, isn't that the truth too. Good point. Like certain half cut players taking to Twitter to complain about the owners.
Hainsey has proven himself to be a greedy, whiny person who doesn't give a damn about the fans as long as he can keep his massively overpaid contract.
I, for one, hope he never plays another game as a Jet, and will not cheer anything he does. He is the player version of Fehr and embodies everything I hate about the NHLPA. Greed, greed, greed.
Greed is human nature. Hainsey is no different than any other player, owner or fan in this regard. Would you have refused a $20 million contract if it were offered to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ
Hainsey signed at an advantageous time - can't fault him for that. His cap hit doesn't really affect the Jets at this point, so for me it's of no concern. Would he receive a similar contract in future? Quite possibly: depends on the FA market at the time. If he can take advantage of timing again, my hats off to him. In the meantime,, he's filling a role for the Jets that CAN'T currently be filled by anyone else in their system, so like him or not, he's an important cog at this juncture.
Regarding statements that he's made, while I may disagree with his position, I vehemently stand behind his right to make them. Once the lockout is over, I'll happily cheer him on as a Jet as a very good #4, or a great #5, depending on how things shake out. He's simply doing what he's been tasked to do by the NHLPA / his brethren.
Contract negotiations should never be taken personally - it's a necessary evil that should (in my opinion) be viewed as separate from the job that you're contracted to perform. It can get ugly on both sides, but that's simply business. When this CBA ugliness is over, I'll forget the negotiations, and get back to enjoying hockey. It's too much fun and too much of an escapism thing for me to "hold grudges" on either the NHL or NHLPA side.
Agreed. Do people really want to boo someone who is fulfilling the wishes of his own team mates? Why not just boo the whole team then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBunk
Collective bargaining talks are about what be made fair and equitable for both sides. You need to hardline a few points because the process is about give and take. I think your assumption of him as a player rep is way off base and my guess, and I don't think I'm wrong here, is that you have never been at a bargaining table. While I disagree with the players stance, I can not fault anyone for being involved in the prices. It is their right and like I said before, I give Hainsey full marks for taking on some tough issues against some very tough individuals.
Again, I mostly agree, having been involved in a number of negotiations. You have to realize that once you pick your leader and your reps, the dye is largely cast. Hainsey has probably spent hundreds of hours with Fehr, listening to him persuasively make his case. I've made it pretty clear that I think Fehr has been a disaster for the PA, but I completely understand how Hainsey--or any other rep who's fallen into Fehr's orbit-- could, with the best of intentions, behave the way he is.
Again, I mostly agree, having been involved in a number of negotiations. You have to realize that once you pick your leader and your reps, the dye is largely cast. Hainsey has probably spent hundreds of hours with Fehr, listening to him persuasively make his case. I've made it pretty clear that I think Fehr has been a disaster for the PA, but I completely understand how Hainsey--or any other rep who's fallen into Fehr's orbit-- could, with the best of intentions, behave the way he is.
Collective bargaining talks are about what be made fair and equitable for both sides. You need to hardline a few points because the process is about give and take. I think your assumption of him as a player rep is way off base and my guess, and I don't think I'm wrong here, is that you have never been at a bargaining table. While I disagree with the players stance, I can not fault anyone for being involved in the prices. It is their right and like I said before, I give Hainsey full marks for taking on some tough issues against some very tough individuals.
Hainsey deserves nothing but criticism for his pathetic attitude throughout the process. Fehr aside, he's been the greediest of the greedy.
And you are wrong. I have been part of labour talks for a new CBA with one of my last employers. We were severely underpaid (on average, $6/hour less than other companies doing the same job), and had very few benefits. In the end, we settled for comprehensive benefits and a $1/hour raise. Why? We liked our jobs, we knew we had to please our customers and contract airlines, or we may end up with no jobs to go back to.
We certainly weren't a bunch of massively overpaid millionaires who want more, more, more.
Nobody should be kidding themselves with this "the players are willing to take less" crap. Revenues are expected to continue to grow. The players know they will end up with more money in the end regardless of a cut for a few seasons.
There seemed to be some confusion about how much money he made last year. People kept citing $4 million or $4.5 (his cap hit).
Seeing as this thread is about the lockout, and Hainsey's on the negotiating committee for the players, and he's a 4th-at-best D-man on any team in the league, and he made $5 million last year...so you could make the case he's a poster-boy for one of the problems with the current CBA. Anyway, his contract seems somewhat relevant to the discussion.
Even the Hainsey-bashing (or the Hainsey-apologizing) is relevant to this thread. Some of the players have said things over the course of the lockout and it's going to affect how their perceived by fans, owners, media, etc.
The last time he was a UFA it was a deep pool on the blue line. There was Brian Campbell, then Wade Redden, then Michal Rozsival and then him. Campbell went for $7.1 million. Redden was next, for $6.5. Rozsival went back to the Rangers for 6 and then it was his turn. Can you honestly say if you were in the same position you would've done differently?...
It's a pretty simple thing to look at, they were all available and the owners were willing to pay. Anyone with half a brain would've done the exact same thing.
Hainsey deserves nothing but criticism for his pathetic attitude throughout the process. Fehr aside, he's been the greediest of the greedy.
And you are wrong. I have been part of labour talks for a new CBA with one of my last employers. We were severely underpaid (on average, $6/hour less than other companies doing the same job), and had very few benefits. In the end, we settled for comprehensive benefits and a $1/hour raise. Why? We liked our jobs, we knew we had to please our customers and contract airlines, or we may end up with no jobs to go back to.
We certainly weren't a bunch of massively overpaid millionaires who want more, more, more.
Nobody should be kidding themselves with this "the players are willing to take less" crap. Revenues are expected to continue to grow. The players know they will end up with more money in the end regardless of a cut for a few seasons.
Seriously, the similiarities between your (I assume) working class union and a pro sports union end at the word union. There is really no comparaison to be made. Everything is about it is different, from the public way the process is handled, to the money involved, to the players and financials situation away from the game, to the necessitaty of the service (if it's an airline like you said, that can be considered vital job that needs to keep working), to way each side views their goals for negotiations, just everything. It is not a comparable situation, despite the word union in there. The NHL and PA negotiate a CBA to control a monopoly on a non-vital service. You have a union to protect the workers (in general). Massive gulf between the two.
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