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Lidstrom's place in history - ALL DISCUSSIONS OF LIDSTROM'S "ALL TIME RANKING" HERE

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Old
12-08-2012, 02:11 PM
  #626
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
The 91-92 Pens finished 20th out of 22 teams in goals against (3.72). Coffey was traded in mid-February. In the playoffs their GAA was 2.92 and they won the Cup, sweeping the last 2 series.

Is it chic to say that was a coincidence?
Their GAA in the regular season went up after Coffey left.

I did the research in another one of these stupid Coffey pile ons.

I'd hazard a guess that most winning teams GAA goes down somewhat in the playoffs.

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12-08-2012, 02:16 PM
  #627
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Their GAA in the regular season went up after Coffey left.

I did the research in another one of these stupid Coffey pile ons.

I'd hazard a guess that most winning teams GAA goes down somewhat in the playoffs.
The Oilers GAA also went up after Coffey left there too
In both the 86/87 regular season to the the 87/88 regular season AND from the 86/87 playoffs to the 87/88 playoffs.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 12-08-2012 at 02:21 PM.
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12-08-2012, 02:30 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Al was still suffering from his reputation as not being the best defensively as evidenced by only gaining any Norris attention in 87 before doing so again in 89

Ray Bourque 266 (52-2-0)
Mark Howe 137 (1-42-6)
Larry Murphy 31 (0-5-16)
Larry Robinson 12 (0-2-6)
Paul Coffey 10 (1-0-5)
Al MacInnis 6 (0-1-3)
Scott Stevens 6 (0-1-3)
Mario Marois 5 (0-1-2)
Rick Green 4 (0-0-4)
Ulf Samuelsson 3 (0-0-3)
Rod Langway 2 (0-0-2)
Mike Ramsey 1 (0-0-1)
James Patrick 1 (0-0-1)
Doug Wilson 1 (0-0-1)
Craig Hartsburg 1 (0-0-1)

In 88 Al is 2nd in Dman scoring behind Suter and doesn't get a single vote in Norris voting which went like this

Ray Bourque 245 (36-20-5)
Scott Stevens 124 (13-15-14)
Gary Suter 80 (8-9-13)
Brad McCrimmon 70 (4-13-11)

Kevin Lowe 24 (2-3-5)
Chris Chelios 10 (0-1-7)
Paul Coffey 5 (0-1-2)
James Patrick 5 (0-1-2)
Mark Howe 3 (0-0-3)
Denis Potvin 1 (0-0-1)

Part of the problem here is Al's defensive reputation and the plus minus of Suter (39) and McCrimmon (48) compared to Al (13).

No doubt Al wasn't as bad defensivley as he was in his earlier career but you would think that if he was as good as he would become that he would get at least 1 single vote don't you? I think the voters screwed up a bit here but that's another matter.
Well, imo you're partially right and partially astray. I'm going to say that there was no "defensive reputation" playing any part, and that "as bad defensively as he was earlier" is certainly subjective. '87/88 sticks out because that's the year they acquired McCrimmon - who I believe took over lead duties on the penalty kill - and a year where Suter outscored him. Suter got votes for his offensive reputation. McCrimmon got votes for his defensive reputation. The guy who did some of both on the same team, and spent his 30 minutes of ice time being paired up alternately with regulars and rookies, wasn't going to get anyone writing in a 3rd Flame candidate onto the ballot unless he was a more obvious choice. It wasn't before McCrimmon lost favour (not long after being named captain, lol) and was moved that Al got handed back more of the responsibilities that ultimately led to the version of Al MacInnis that perhaps more people are familiar with.

That's the same McCrimmon, btw, who was moved from Calgary to Detroit, and paired with a young Nick Lidstrom, and received a lot of credit for the quality and style of defense that he played; allowing Lidstrom to take chances and explore his capabilities, and become the player that most people are familiar with. Pretty interesting tie-in. It's also somewhat noteworthy that McCrimmon was getting post season all-star votes (more than MacInnis) during his time in Philly - just a couple of seasons before joining the Flames. That's partially why I think it was even possible for MacInnis to go without a single Norris vote that year. They flip-flopped who got more post season all-star votes in the earlier years, though (until '89+ when MacInnis wins no contest).

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12-08-2012, 02:31 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
He still wasn't a better player and neither the Al from '99 or the Al from '91 is better than Bourque or Chelios from '87-'96.
I'd agree with that.

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12-08-2012, 05:05 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
That whole team played like a bunch of rovers in the regular season.
For the most part yes but we are talking about Coffey here and it's not like he was anywhere near the best defesnive Dman on his team either.



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No, the difference is that Coffey could play defense when he wanted, Housley was a lost cause. You watch Paul in the Canada Cups and the playoffs and it's a lot different.
I'll judge players on what they actually did, not what they could have done.



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Except of course when, as the info dug up earlier in this thread revealed, Bowman used him to go head to head with Sakic in '96 because he was the only one that could keep up to him, Lidstrom included.
Sakic was limited to 1G and 3A in 6 games at even strength in that series btw.
That's great but where is the context?

Who else was on that unit?

Which Dman shadowed Forseberg

Was Coffey ever used this way again is was it a 1 time 6 game thing?

How does 1-3-4 in 6 GP at ES match up with the rest of Joe's career?

Other top playoff performers during the same time?

The observation was thrown out there but there isn't a heck of a lot to conclude but I would venture that most superstar's ES line in the playoffs is well below a PPG.



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He still wasn't a better player and neither the Al from '99 or the Al from '91 is better than Bourque or Chelios from '87-'96.
So your attempt to make Lidstrom's competition look better while making Bourque's look worse aint gonna fly.
That IS after all your underlying motivation.
I don't have a horse in the race here.

Don't assume that because you approach your threads to promote or diminish a player that others do as well.

I try to look at as many factors as possible because I'm actually not set in my ways here and compile the information to make a decision.

I do know that the level of competition and circumstances in each and every year is different though and sometimes perfect storms are created, like Pronger's Hart win.

If I only cared about putting Lidstrom in the most positive light I would say something like "Lidstrom competed against A Hart winner for his Norris trophies while Bourque didn't" but I wouldn't make that statement because it's absurd and inaccurate and misleading.

A further note to Al only getting Norris recognition in 87 and not 88, it's based on a false reputation on his age 21 season IMO, something that took Al too long to shake and he was a much better overall player throughout his career than his Norris voting stats give him credit for IMO.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 12-09-2012 at 01:34 AM.
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Old
12-08-2012, 05:41 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
That's great but where is the context?

Who else was on that unit?

Which Dman shadowed Forseberg

Was Coffey ever used this way again is was it a 1 time 6 game thing?

How does 1-3-4 in 6 GP at ES match up with the rest of Joe's career?

Other top playoff performers during the same time?

The observation was thrown out there but there isn't a heck of a lot to conclude but I would venture that most superstar's ES line in the playoffs is well below a PPG.
Lidstrom was on the unit. He was burned several times by playing against his strengths, including instances of taking the wrong man physically and attempting to force a turnover at center ice in overtime. This series of his had been discussed before. He had a strong offensive game without Coffey in Game 3, but was scoreless otherwise and often victimized. Hence the -6 despite being the defensive partner of Coffey - who broke even.

Konstantinov shadowed Forsberg, but Forsberg did break away from that matchup for one of his highlight goals in Game 6. You know... the one between Lidstrom's legs.

I don't recall if Coffey was used like that before.

Joe Sakic was coming off of 13 goals in 12 games going into that series. Coffey finished with 5 points to Sakic's 6 in their head-to-head games (Coffey was injured).

Other top playoff performers? In 1996? Granted, Chicago put Chelios on Forsberg, but it's not like Joe Sakic wasn't the biggest threat from the Avalanche. Maybe Ozolinsh, if he's pinching.

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12-08-2012, 05:45 PM
  #632
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
For the most part yes but we are talking about Coffey here and it's not like he was anywhere near the best defesnive Dman on his team either.
Who is saying that he was???



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I'll judge players on what they actually did, not what they could have done.
Coffey DID play better defensively in the Canada Cups and in the playoffs though. So he DID actually do it.




Quote:
That's great but where is the context?

Who else was on that unit?

Which Dman shadowed Forseberg

Was Coffey ever used this way again is was it a 1 time 6 game thing?

How does 1-3-4 in 6 GP at ES match up with the rest of Joe's career?

Other top playoff performers during the same time?

The observation was thrown out there but there isn't a heck of a lot to conclude but I would venture that most superstar's ES line in the playoffs is well below a PPG.
Sakic had 14 points in the other 16 games at even strength that year.



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I don't have a horse in the race here.

Don't assume that because you approach your threads to promote or diminish a player that others do as well.
********!

Quote:
I try to look at as many factors as possible because I'm actually not set in my ways here and compile the information to make a decision.

I do know that the level of competition and circumstances in each and every year is different though and sometimes perfect storms are created, like Pronger's Hart win.

If I only cared about putting Lidstrom in the most positive light I would say something like "Lidstrom competed against A Hart winner for his Norris trophies while Bourque didn't" but I wouldn't make that statement because it's absurd and inaccurate and misleading.

A further note to Al only getting Norris recognition in 87 and not 88, it's based on a false reputation on his age 21 season IMO, something that took Al too long to shake and he was a much better overall player throughout his career than his Norris voting stats give him credit for IMO.
That would prolly be because Bourque WAS pretty much a Hart winner

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12-08-2012, 05:52 PM
  #633
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Who is saying that he was???

Coffey DID play better defensively in the Canada Cups and in the playoffs though. So he DID actually do it.

Sakic had 14 points in the other 16 games at even strength that year.

********!

That would prolly be because Bourque WAS pretty much a Hart winner
You know, I'm beginning to understand why a wise old hockey sage once told me a couple of years go that "If you want to know the definition of 'overrated' the dictionary will tell you it's anyone who ever played for the Red Wings not named Howe."


Last edited by Morgoth Bauglir: 12-08-2012 at 06:15 PM.
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12-08-2012, 06:12 PM
  #634
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Their GAA in the regular season went up after Coffey left.

I did the research in another one of these stupid Coffey pile ons.

I'd hazard a guess that most winning teams GAA goes down somewhat in the playoffs.
Thanks for deleting the part about the Pens being 3rd in the league in GAA the next season. Way to keep it honest.

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12-08-2012, 06:13 PM
  #635
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
A further note to Al only getting Norris recognition in 87 and not 88, it's based on a false reputation on his age 21 season IMO, something that took Al too long to shake and he was a much better overall player throughout his career than his Norris voting stats give him credit for IMO.
seems more to be a flavour of the month thing. he gets a little norris recognition and is a second team all-star in '87 partly on the strength of his '86 finals run.

then in '88 along comes mccrimmon, who doesn't miss a beat without howe. so he's going to get extra recognition for a reevaluation of what he provided to the howe/mccrimmon pairing.

then you have suter breaking out in a huge way (91 points in his third year). he's also a flashier d-man, shades of young brian leetch a few years later.

so it makes sense that voters aren't going to give recognition to three defenseman on the same team and al was the odd man out that year.

i mean, we all know this: guys in new situations or guys making a big leap in their games usually get a little extra push. macinnis himself got it in '87. none of those three guys was yet at that undeniably eilte level macinnis would get to from '89-'91 (i mean '89 playoffs to the 102 point season), and it just happened in '88 that mccrimmon and suter were better stories than macinnis was.

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12-08-2012, 10:38 PM
  #636
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Thanks for deleting the part about the Pens being 3rd in the league in GAA the next season. Way to keep it honest.
Yes, because it has way more variables than looking at the season in which he was traded where the roster was mostly the same, the players were the same age, and Bowman hadn't had time to pull the team as far towards defensive play.

The fact is when Coffey left Pittsburgh they allowed more goals that season. According to you (and others) we should immediately see them allowing a goal less a game or something like that because he was apparently so terrible defensively.

As for the next season, if you want to just overlook the emergence of Jagr, Francis and Samuelsson playing a dozen more games each, Barrasso playing much better etc. and say it was Coffey's absence.. hey have at it, I guess.

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12-09-2012, 08:40 AM
  #637
Dennis Bonvie
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Yes, because it has way more variables than looking at the season in which he was traded where the roster was mostly the same, the players were the same age, and Bowman hadn't had time to pull the team as far towards defensive play.

The fact is when Coffey left Pittsburgh they allowed more goals that season. According to you (and others) we should immediately see them allowing a goal less a game or something like that because he was apparently so terrible defensively.

As for the next season, if you want to just overlook the emergence of Jagr, Francis and Samuelsson playing a dozen more games each, Barrasso playing much better etc. and say it was Coffey's absence.. hey have at it, I guess.
So your point is that Pittsburgh did not improve defensively post-Coffey?

That Coffey was not bad defensively when in Pittsburgh?

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