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Adam Proteau from THN talks about the Leafs, and the Lockout

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:55 PM
  #26
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I gave it a listen up to the point when I heard the phrase "Let's discuss the Lockout." Nothing against you or anything I just have heard so much about the Lockout from TSN. The Sun, THN, etc that I can't deal with any more. It is much like the Luongo thread in Trade Rumors it is a dead horse that we just keep beating. Not bad commentary on the whole "star player coming home.". My only problem is the disregard that the media has nothing to do with them returning. While I will admit it is not 100% the media's blame they are contributing. Are they the majority of the reason? No most likely not but to assume no blame on them seems a bit juvenile and short sighted. Just my two cents.
Yup. I don't understand how things like hockeycentral can stay on the air with no hockey. I have no interest in lockout talk anymore.

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12-07-2012, 08:55 PM
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Yup. I don't understand how things like hockeycentral can stay on the air with no hockey. I have no interest in lockout talk anymore.
Really there was a time you had in interest in labor negotiations? I find it humorous how Sportsnet and TSN cover it like it is sports..

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12-07-2012, 08:58 PM
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Lots of people would prefer to work close to their family, friends and the place they call home. But it is not quite that black and white. I doubt very much your family asks to come watch you work.

That is another factor, being a hockey player in a Canadian market is one of the highest forms of celebrity, Toronto and Montreal especially. Not only are there huge endorsement bucks to be had but the respect and adoration of the fans. It should be remembered when Clark got traded it cost him 6mil a year in endorsements. Considering that was ages ago what would Stamkos make ? 10-20 Mil ?

Stamkos if he became a Leaf would have to register as a religion because you can be sure Temples and shrines would be built. In Tampa he is behind football players, baseball players and is in a foriegn country.

This is not to say he might not prefer Tampa. Maybe his wife likes there (if he has one ?) , maybe his parents moved there, maybe he considers it home. He may not want the spotlight and pressure that would come with being a Leaf, only he really knows.

I think most players would like to one day play for their hometown team, but that is just one of numerous considerations they have to make for their career, their families and themselves.
I actually worked with Steve Stamkos' dad a few years ago. I spoke to him about Steve..He said he loved the guys in Tampa and liked living there but he grew up a Leaf fan and would have loved to be drafted by the Leafs.

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12-07-2012, 11:32 PM
  #29
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I actually worked with Steve Stamkos' dad a few years ago. I spoke to him about Steve..He said he loved the guys in Tampa and liked living there but he grew up a Leaf fan and would have loved to be drafted by the Leafs.
I have a feeling he's going to come home one day as a UFA, and not like a beaten down old Eric Lindros either.

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12-08-2012, 12:51 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Yup. I don't understand how things like hockeycentral can stay on the air with no hockey. I have no interest in lockout talk anymore.
Hey at least sportsnet airs other sports other than hockey..have you seen TSN's T.V sched lately lol. Yikes! They have poker, boxing (usually two guys I've never heard of) the Canadian International Dog show the world sledge hockey challenge...like it's pretty empty. They do have the NBA on Thursday's and NFL football on Sunday and Monday night but after that there isn't much

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12-08-2012, 11:25 AM
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No. He was in the prime of his career. Easily the best and biggest free agent signing of that summer.
Ron Francis signing in Carolina and Brett Hull signing in Dallas were two free agent picks up that actually resulted in their teams challenging for Stanley Cups with Francis captaining the Canes to the 2002 final and Hull scoring the Cup winning goal in the 99 Final. I don't know how you could argue that Curtis Joseph was "easily" the best and biggest free agent signing of that summer. Hull was definitely the most sought after free agent of that class and his play and presence in Dallas elevated that franchise to a whole other level.

Calling Cujo "easily the best and biggest free agent signing of that summer" is revisionist history. He wasn't even the most sought after goaltender. Philadelphia and Detroit, who both needed goaltending help, went hard after Mike Richter before he signed back on with the Rangers.


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12-08-2012, 12:35 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Ron Francis signing in Carolina and Brett Hull signing in Dallas were two free agent picks up that actually resulted in their teams challenging for Stanley Cups with Francis captaining the Canes to the 2002 final and Hull scoring the Cup winning goal in the 99 Final. I don't know how you could argue that Curtis Joseph was "easily" the best and biggest free agent signing of that summer. Hull was definitely the most sought after free agent of that class and his play and presence in Dallas elevated that franchise to a whole other level.

Calling Cujo "easily the best and biggest free agent signing of that summer" is revisionist history. He wasn't even the most sought after goaltender. Philadelphia and Detroit, who both needed goaltending help, went hard after Mike Richter before he signed back on with the Rangers.
Huh? CUJO took a bad team and carried them to the Eastern Conference finals in 1 year. How can you claim an aging Francis helping Carolina go one more round farther 4 years after he signed with them a better signing? And Hull joined a team that was already contending.

The second CUJO joined the Leafs they went from bottom feeder to contender. You're going on and on about Francis and Hull's accomplishments, and failing to acknowledge how CUJO himself became the cornerstone of the team along with Mats Sundin and turned the franchise around right away. Hull and Francis were supporting pieces. And Francis signing really didn't do much for Carolina at all. Your argument is terrible.


Without CUJO the Leafs missed the playoffs. With CUJO they avg. 100 points and made the conference finals 2 out of his 4 seasons in Toronto.

CUJO=best free agent signing of the summer of 98' by far.


And BTW-Philly not signing CUJO was a terrible mistake. Everyone knows this. He eliminated them the next season from the playoffs. CUJO was their first choice, but they thought he asked for too much money. John Vanbiesbrook was their "Plan B" signing and it blew up in their face.


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12-08-2012, 12:49 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Ron Francis signing in Carolina and Brett Hull signing in Dallas were two free agent picks up that actually resulted in their teams challenging for Stanley Cups with Francis captaining the Canes to the 2002 final and Hull scoring the Cup winning goal in the 99 Final. I don't know how you could argue that Curtis Joseph was "easily" the best and biggest free agent signing of that summer. Hull was definitely the most sought after free agent of that class and his play and presence in Dallas elevated that franchise to a whole other level.

Calling Cujo "easily the best and biggest free agent signing of that summer" is revisionist history. He wasn't even the most sought after goaltender. Philadelphia and Detroit, who both needed goaltending help, went hard after Mike Richter before he signed back on with the Rangers.
Terrible argument. Francis joined a bottom feeder Carolina team that only had that Cinderella run 4 years later in 2002, and were in the meantime busy doing nothing but losing in the first round or missing the playoffs, and Brett Hull was joining a contender whom he pushed over the top. Cujo automatically became one of two cornerstones on the Leafs roster and turned a junk team around over night.

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12-08-2012, 04:19 PM
  #34
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I was actually hoping for #10 really.

I've noticed a disturbing trend. players being given numbers of others
who have played and failed here.

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12-08-2012, 04:31 PM
  #35
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Terrible argument. Francis joined a bottom feeder Carolina team that only had that Cinderella run 4 years later in 2002, and were in the meantime busy doing nothing but losing in the first round or missing the playoffs, and Brett Hull was joining a contender whom he pushed over the top. Cujo automatically became one of two cornerstones on the Leafs roster and turned a junk team around over night.
Yeah, all Francis did was take the Hurricanes from bottom-feeder status to winning their division the season he signed with them then captained them to the Stanley Cup finals in 2002. How can that compete with Joseph? That crappy Hall of Famer only led the 'Canes in scoring twice in his five full seasons there. He's such a loser he only finished 2nd in team scoring twice too. What a let down.

And really, how could anybody pretend that Brett Hull, who joined the Stars and gave them a legitmate scoring winger (their best the year before was the long in the tooth Pat Verbeek) was somehow better or more impactful then CuJo? All Dallas got for their investment in the future Hall of Famer was 32 goals (in just 60 games) and a Cup winning tally bringing the franchise their first drink from Lord Stanley's mug. Pfffft, as if any of that matters when you compare it to the Leafs getting to the semi-finals. The second year of Hull's contract in Dallas saw them again advance to the Stanley Cup Final and all Hull did was lead the entire league in playoff scoring. That's great and everything, but it's not as good as Joseph who won *2* games in the quarter finals before the Leafs bowed out. I mean, what kind of idiot would think Hull's crappy "leading the league in playoff scoring" while wearing his cup ring from the season before would somehow be better than Joseph beating the Devils twice in the Quarter Finals?

Do you have any idea how stupid your argument sounds? Do you even care?


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Old
12-08-2012, 04:48 PM
  #36
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Hull and Francis were supporting pieces. And Francis signing really didn't do much for Carolina at all. Your argument is terrible.
Is this a joke? Hull was a supporting piece in Dallas? He was their leading scoring winger each season he played there. He scored their Stanley Cup game winner. He led the entire league in playoff scoring in 2000. What the hell are you talking about?

And Ron Francis didn't do much at all? He was the captain of a Stanley Cup finalist. How does Joseph stack up against that? In 1999, he led the Hurricanes in scoring. Captaining the team and leading them in scoring isn't "doing much at all?" In 2001, he was two points shy of leading them in scoring again, and in 2002, he was again their leading scorer, and he led the team to the Stanley Cup final. To suggest this "isn't much at all" or that he's a supporting piece is essentially you just admitting that you have no clue what you are talking about.

I'm not taking away anything from Curtis Joseph. He was my favorite Maple Leaf of the past twenty years. But what he did in Toronto is nothing compared to what Hull and Francis - two Hall of Famers - accomplished in Dallas and Carolina, and to pretend he was "by far the best free agent of 1998" has to come from someone that doesn't remember the summer of 1998. Joseph sat around unsigned for two weeks after free agency began. The aforementioned players were highly sought after and teams with goaltending needs were focused on Mike Richter, who the Predators had no chance of signing so he was on the market. After Richter re-upped in New York, teams were kicking the tired on Joseph and John Vanbiesbrouck. Pretending that Cujo was somehow the crown jewel of that class is simply revisionist history.

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12-08-2012, 05:45 PM
  #37
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Yeah, all Francis did was take the Hurricanes from bottom-feeder status to winning their division the season he signed with them then captained them to the Stanley Cup finals in 2002. How can that compete with Joseph? That crappy Hall of Famer only led the 'Canes in scoring twice in his five full seasons there. He's such a loser he only finished 2nd in team scoring twice too. What a let down.

And really, how could anybody pretend that Brett Hull, who joined the Stars and gave them a legitmate scoring winger (their best the year before was the long in the tooth Pat Verbeek) was somehow better or more impactful then CuJo? All Dallas got for their investment in the future Hall of Famer was 32 goals (in just 60 games) and a Cup winning tally bringing the franchise their first drink from Lord Stanley's mug. Pfffft, as if any of that matters when you compare it to the Leafs getting to the semi-finals. The second year of Hull's contract in Dallas saw them again advance to the Stanley Cup Final and all Hull did was lead the entire league in playoff scoring. That's great and everything, but it's not as good as Joseph who won *2* games in the quarter finals before the Leafs bowed out. I mean, what kind of idiot would think Hull's crappy "leading the league in playoff scoring" while wearing his cup ring from the season before would somehow be better than Joseph beating the Devils twice in the Quarter Finals?

Do you have any idea how stupid your argument sounds? Do you even care?
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Is this a joke? Hull was a supporting piece in Dallas? He was their leading scoring winger each season he played there. He scored their Stanley Cup game winner. He led the entire league in playoff scoring in 2000. What the hell are you talking about?

And Ron Francis didn't do much at all? He was the captain of a Stanley Cup finalist. How does Joseph stack up against that? In 1999, he led the Hurricanes in scoring. Captaining the team and leading them in scoring isn't "doing much at all?" In 2001, he was two points shy of leading them in scoring again, and in 2002, he was again their leading scorer, and he led the team to the Stanley Cup final. To suggest this "isn't much at all" or that he's a supporting piece is essentially you just admitting that you have no clue what you are talking about.

I'm not taking away anything from Curtis Joseph. He was my favorite Maple Leaf of the past twenty years. But what he did in Toronto is nothing compared to what Hull and Francis - two Hall of Famers - accomplished in Dallas and Carolina, and to pretend he was "by far the best free agent of 1998" has to come from someone that doesn't remember the summer of 1998. Joseph sat around unsigned for two weeks after free agency began. The aforementioned players were highly sought after and teams with goaltending needs were focused on Mike Richter, who the Predators had no chance of signing so he was on the market. After Richter re-upped in New York, teams were kicking the tired on Joseph and John Vanbiesbrouck. Pretending that Cujo was somehow the crown jewel of that class is simply revisionist history.
It may interest you to know that in the 2 years after that UFA season, Joseph was twice runner-up for the Vezina Trophy, a finalist for the Lester B. Pearson Award, won the King Clancy Memorial Trophy and finished 4th and 11th in Hart trophy voting (neither Hull nor Francis got a single vote - though they had teammates who did).

So yes, it is quite reasonable to say Joseph was the best UFA signed from that class.

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12-08-2012, 06:13 PM
  #38
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Is this a joke? Hull was a supporting piece in Dallas? He was their leading scoring winger each season he played there. He scored their Stanley Cup game winner. He led the entire league in playoff scoring in 2000. What the hell are you talking about?

And Ron Francis didn't do much at all? He was the captain of a Stanley Cup finalist. How does Joseph stack up against that? In 1999, he led the Hurricanes in scoring. Captaining the team and leading them in scoring isn't "doing much at all?" In 2001, he was two points shy of leading them in scoring again, and in 2002, he was again their leading scorer, and he led the team to the Stanley Cup final. To suggest this "isn't much at all" or that he's a supporting piece is essentially you just admitting that you have no clue what you are talking about.

I'm not taking away anything from Curtis Joseph. He was my favorite Maple Leaf of the past twenty years. But what he did in Toronto is nothing compared to what Hull and Francis - two Hall of Famers - accomplished in Dallas and Carolina, and to pretend he was "by far the best free agent of 1998" has to come from someone that doesn't remember the summer of 1998. Joseph sat around unsigned for two weeks after free agency began. The aforementioned players were highly sought after and teams with goaltending needs were focused on Mike Richter, who the Predators had no chance of signing so he was on the market. After Richter re-upped in New York, teams were kicking the tired on Joseph and John Vanbiesbrouck. Pretending that Cujo was somehow the crown jewel of that class is simply revisionist history.
I took issue with you going on and on about Francis' and Hull's contributions and ignoring CUJO's. Francis getting 1 round farther in year 4 on a cinderella run for the Canes' does not mean he was the more successful signing and did more. CUJO himself turned the entire organization around They went to the conference finals 2 out of 4 years and he was in the running for the Vezina every year. The Leafs went from 69 points to 97 after CUJO signed. That's a massive difference.

And to correct you, Francis also "Sat Around" for two weeks before he signed in Carolina.

CUJO was in his prime and considered a franchise goalie when the Leafs signed him.

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12-08-2012, 06:21 PM
  #39
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Ron Francis signing in Carolina and Brett Hull signing in Dallas were two free agent picks up that actually resulted in their teams challenging for Stanley Cups with Francis captaining the Canes to the 2002 final and Hull scoring the Cup winning goal in the 99 Final. I don't know how you could argue that Curtis Joseph was "easily" the best and biggest free agent signing of that summer. Hull was definitely the most sought after free agent of that class and his play and presence in Dallas elevated that franchise to a whole other level.

Calling Cujo "easily the best and biggest free agent signing of that summer" is revisionist history. He wasn't even the most sought after goaltender. Philadelphia and Detroit, who both needed goaltending help, went hard after Mike Richter before he signed back on with the Rangers.
IF Philly hadn't cheaped out and gone with Vanbiesbrouk to save 2M, there is a good chance CuJo and the Flyers have a ring in there somewhere.

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12-08-2012, 06:25 PM
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IF Philly hadn't cheaped out and gone with Vanbiesbrouk to save 2M, there is a good chance CuJo and the Flyers have a ring in there somewhere.
Yup. One of the many mistakes in net we've seen from the Flyers for the last 20 years.

Van biesbrouck's game has slipped. He wasn't in CUJO's league in terms of signing.

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12-08-2012, 07:58 PM
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Yeah, all Francis did was take the Hurricanes from bottom-feeder status to winning their division the season he signed with them then captained them to the Stanley Cup finals in 2002. How can that compete with Joseph? That crappy Hall of Famer only led the 'Canes in scoring twice in his five full seasons there. He's such a loser he only finished 2nd in team scoring twice too. What a let down.
Don't make me laugh Ferris, the Carolina Hurricanes "won" their division with 86 points in 1998-99 and were canon fodder in the first round, missed the playoffs in 2000 and lost in the first round again in 2001. That's not much of a impact before their Cinderella run in 2002.

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And really, how could anybody pretend that Brett Hull, who joined the Stars and gave them a legitmate scoring winger (their best the year before was the long in the tooth Pat Verbeek) was somehow better or more impactful then CuJo? All Dallas got for their investment in the future Hall of Famer was 32 goals (in just 60 games) and a Cup winning tally bringing the franchise their first drink from Lord Stanley's mug. Pfffft... blah blah blah
How about this?

The fact that in 1996-97 and 1997-98 the Dallas Stars were 104 and 109 point teams? In 1998, the Dallas Stars scored 242 goals and made it to the third round of the playoffs before being knocked off by the cup winning Red Wings? In 1999, with the addition of Hull, they managed to score 236 goals, a difference of -6, and managed 114 points, a whopping 5 point improvement on the year before.

Hull was a big part of their cup run, but considering that Cujo came in and took us to two final four appearances and accounted for a 28 point increase in the standings, it's safe to say Cujo's addition was more of a game changer than Brett Hull.


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12-08-2012, 08:10 PM
  #42
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Don't make me laugh Ferris, the Carolina Hurricanes "won" their division with 86 points in 1998-99 and were canon fodder in the first round, missed the playoffs in 2000 and lost in the first round again in 2001. That's not much of a impact before their Cinderella run in 2002.



How about this?

The fact that in 1996-97 and 1997-98 the Dallas Stars were 104 and 109 point teams? In 1998, the Dallas Stars scored 242 goals and made it to the third round of the playoffs before being knocked off by the cup winning Red Wings? In 1999, with the addition of Hull, they managed to score 236 goals, a difference of -6, and managed 114 points, a whopping 5 point improvement on the year before.

Hull was a big part of their cup run, but considering that Cujo came in and took us to two final four appearances and accounted for a 28 point increase in the standings, it's safe to say Cujo's addition was more of a game changer than Brett Hull.
In addition to all the trophy nominations Cujo got, between Hull and Francis, over multiple years they garnered a grand total of 1 All Star vote between them.

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12-08-2012, 09:48 PM
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Don't make me laugh Ferris, the Carolina Hurricanes "won" their division with 86 points in 1998-99 and were canon fodder in the first round, missed the playoffs in 2000 and lost in the first round again in 2001. That's not much of a impact before their Cinderella run in 2002.



How about this?

The fact that in 1996-97 and 1997-98 the Dallas Stars were 104 and 109 point teams? In 1998, the Dallas Stars scored 242 goals and made it to the third round of the playoffs before being knocked off by the cup winning Red Wings? In 1999, with the addition of Hull, they managed to score 236 goals, a difference of -6, and managed 114 points, a whopping 5 point improvement on the year before.

Hull was a big part of their cup run, but considering that Cujo came in and took us to two final four appearances and accounted for a 28 point increase in the standings, it's safe to say Cujo's addition was more of a game changer than Brett Hull.
That's why I called Hull and Francis more "Supporting Pieces". Hull joined a contender and helped them obviously. But he wasn't the focal point of the team like CUJO was when he joined the Leafs. CUJO's impact was massive on the entire organization.

Ferris looks awfully biased in his opinions. Francis really didn't do that much in Carolina. He joined them at age 35. He was a good player, but not at his peak anymore. In fact, they had their best year ever for their franchise the season after he retired when they won the cup.

There's no "revisionist History", CUJO in 1998' was seen as a massive UFA signing. He was loved in Edmonton was was fantastic for them.


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12-09-2012, 07:40 AM
  #44
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Everything I said about Crosby, in this episode I take back. Watching those players stand behind Fehr last night as he purposely tried to mislead the hockey world and the fans. He knowingly played with our emotions as some of our sons and daughters heroes stood there and okayed him to do it. I personally am now at a point where I am truly disgusted with how our game is being treated and those that represent it. IMO that speech last night by Fehr was one if not the darkest moments in NHL history.
Fehr didn't institute a lock out the owners did. just remember that. Fehr allowing the players to be used in a public relations scam by the owners requesting to meet with them won't happen again possibly. A expierenced negotiator to do that was PR suicide.

There is no shortage of hockey to watch anyway. i AM NOT MISSING IT. Its to bad there wasn't somebody concerned about the real people that lost their jobs at the rinks of these franchises etc.

They will be hurting most right now,not players,not owners. Its to bad really for them people. Saddening really!


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12-09-2012, 08:35 AM
  #45
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Fehr didn't institute a lock out the owners did. just remember that. Fehr allowing the players to be used in a public relations scam by the owners requesting to meet with them won't happen again possibly. A expierenced negotiator to do that was PR suicide.

There is no shortage of hockey to watch anyway. i AM NOT MISSING IT. Its to bad there wasn't somebody concerned about the real people that lost their jobs at the rinks of these franchises etc.

They will be hurting most right now,not players,not owners. Its to bad really for them people. Saddening really!
I see your point. But when players and their reps stand in front of the fans, like myself and say it looks like a deal, knowing full well it's not, I turn to my son and say "looks like there will be hockey soon" only to break his heart ten min later. All this in as a negotiation tactic. That crosses the line, and for the players who should understand more than anyone the love that fans an the children of this country have for hockey to sit back and let it happen is truly sad.
This game is not only about stats and points. It's about our kids, them having heroes, Saturday mornings at the rink and Saturday nights at home together. So to stand in front of our Nation and mislead us is truly shameful.
Your correct the the owners are just as guilty and disgusting in this situation .

As for the people who have list their jobs I couldn't agree more, the owners and players complain as Christmas approaches for the unemployed. If you check our history we have done much to make people aware of this issues. Yes the economy as a whole does not suffer in a lockout but individuals and their family's do.

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12-09-2012, 09:15 AM
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I see your point. But when players and their reps stand in front of the fans, like myself and say it looks like a deal, knowing full well it's not, I turn to my son and say "looks like there will be hockey soon" only to break his heart ten min later. All this in as a negotiation tactic. That crosses the line, and for the players who should understand more than anyone the love that fans an the children of this country have for hockey to sit back and let it happen is truly sad.
This game is not only about stats and points. It's about our kids, them having heroes, Saturday mornings at the rink and Saturday nights at home together. So to stand in front of our Nation and mislead us is truly shameful.
Your correct the the owners are just as guilty and disgusting in this situation .

As for the people who have list their jobs I couldn't agree more, the owners and players complain as Christmas approaches for the unemployed. If you check our history we have done much to make people aware of this issues. Yes the economy as a whole does not suffer in a lockout but individuals and their family's do.
This is the way big fish operate,and if the networks wanted to put a real life,real people foremost, the owners,and players would be secondary to the least effected in it all.

The effects financially on the players,and owners can only be described as minimal,but yet it is all about finance with little if any care about the burden of the ones that are most effected financially.

I am not feeling sorry for myself missing hockey,when i myself am the least effected also. Thats where my simple view of all this sits anyways. I don't buy anything either side of the negotiation wants you too.

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12-09-2012, 11:53 AM
  #47
FerrisRox
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Hull was a big part of their cup run, but considering that Cujo came in and took us to two final four appearances and accounted for a 28 point increase in the standings, it's safe to say Cujo's addition was more of a game changer than Brett Hull.
Sure it is, if you want to pretend that winning the Stanley Cup isn't the ultimate goal.

As a Leaf fan I can see why you like to pretend somehow that's not the end game, but I assure you, for GM's, it certainly is. To try and suggest that Hull's accomplishments and impact - winning a Cup - should somehow be downplayed because the team he signed with was a solid hockey club is idiotic.

By your definition, and solid free agent signing on a ****** team instantly becomes the best signing of the summer if his impact causes the team to see a double digit improvement in the standings?

No free agent that signs with the a solid hockey club, a 100pt team, could ever be deemed the best signing by your definition because the team isn't gonna suddenly become a 125 point team. Don't you see the fundamental flaw in that logic?

Hull won a Cup. He scored the game winning goal. The following year he led the entire league in playoff scoring while the team again advanced to the Stanley Cup Final. Those are facts. If you somehow think the Leafs going to the Semi-Final twice bests that, then there's nothing else to say. There's no arguing with the "logic" you're putting forward.

Again, I'm not taking anything away from CuJo. I was always a huge fan, but I think you are using a bit of revisionist history to heap a little more praise onto his plate then he truly deserves. He was, without a doubt, the largest factor in the Leafs turn around that season, but by now means did he do it alone. The additions of Tomas Kaberle, Danil Markov, Bryan Berard and Alex Kaprovtsev completely revamped the Leafs blueline and allowed the team to change their style of play and the emergence of Sergei Berezin upfront and the addition of Steve Thomas added two scoring wingers (37 goals and 28 goals respectively) that completely changed how the opposition played against the Leafs.

The year before, the Leafs highest scoring winger was Derek King. If he wasn't being fed the puck, he was useless offensively because his sub-par skating and lack of creativity with the puck made him very one dimensional. If you shut down Sundin, or even partially shut him down, the Leafs offense sagged. The following year - Cujo's first with the team - the Leafs suddenly had a lot more offensive tools with defenders like Kaberle, Karpostsvev and Berard able to move the puck well from the backend and play a much more up tempo style and scorers like Berezin and Thomas up front adding depth and other options that made them a much more difficult team to defend against. With a defense that can move the puck, suddenly Steve Sullivan and Mike Johnson were also 20-goal scorers and the Leafs saw great improvement.

Cujo's stellar goaltending certainly helped the Leafs successfully play that up tempo style, but you make it sound like he showed up and suddenly the Leafs fortunes changed. That was a big year of transition for Toronto and Cujo was joined by a lot of other new faces like Berard, Kaberle, Markov (a bit player the previous year) Thomas and the emergence of Berezin to take the team to the next level.


Last edited by FerrisRox: 12-09-2012 at 11:58 AM.
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12-09-2012, 11:56 AM
  #48
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In addition to all the trophy nominations Cujo got, between Hull and Francis, over multiple years they garnered a grand total of 1 All Star vote between them.
Sigh.

The goal is winning the Stanley Cup. After signing in Dallas and Carolina respectively they went to three Stanley Cup Finals and won once. Hull scored the Cup winning goal. Hull led the playoffs in scoring.

Do you think any player - or fan - gives a **** about All-Star votes compared to competing for the Cup?

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12-09-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Sure it is, if you want to pretend that winning the Stanley Cup isn't the ultimate goal.

As a Leaf fan I can see why you like to pretend somehow that's not the end game, but I assure you, for GM's, it certainly is. To try and suggest that Hull's accomplishments and impact - winning a Cup - should somehow be downplayed because the team he signed with was a solid hockey club is idiotic.
By your definition, and solid free agent signing on a ****** team instantly becomes the best signing of the summer if his impact causes the team to see a double digit improvement in the standings?

No free agent that signs with the a solid hockey club, a 100pt team, could ever be deemed the best signing by your definition because the team isn't gonna suddenly become a 125 point team. Don't you see the fundamental flaw in that logic?

Hull won a Cup. He scored the game winning goal. The following year he led the entire league in playoff scoring while the team again advanced to the Stanley Cup Final. Those are facts. If you somehow think the Leafs going to the Semi-Final twice bests that, then there's nothing else to say. There's no arguing with the "logic" you're putting forward.
[/QUOTE]

If the Toronto Maple Leafs went out today and signed a player, goalie or otherwise, who right away became one of our two best players and accounted for a 28 point improvement and a final four appearance in 2013 after the wilderness we've been through, I'd say that's a bigger individual impact than an addition like Marian Hossa winning the cup with the Chicago Blackhawks in 2010, a team that already had every thing in place.

Winning the Stanley Cup is a high and mighty notion, but taking a have not team and turning them into an instant contender overnight and staying there doesn't happen very often. Adding a 30 goal scorer to consolidate a successful team into a cup winner is a great thing, but if the New York Rangers won a cup with a 30 goal scoring Rick Nash in 2013 (in some alternate universe without the lockout), it's probably not the biggest story in that equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Again, I'm not taking anything away from CuJo. I was always a huge fan, but I think you are using a bit of revisionist history to heap a little more praise onto his plate then he truly deserves. He was, without a doubt, the largest factor in the Leafs turn around that season, but by now means did he do it alone. The additions of Tomas Kaberle, Danil Markov, Bryan Berard and Alex Kaprovtsev completely revamped the Leafs blueline and allowed the team to change their style of play and the emergence of Sergei Berezin upfront and the addition of Steve Thomas added two scoring wingers (37 goals and 28 goals respectively) that completely changed how the opposition played against the Leafs.

The year before, the Leafs highest scoring winger was Derek King. If he wasn't being fed the puck, he was useless offensively because his sub-par skating and lack of creativity with the puck made him very one dimensional. If you shut down Sundin, or even partially shut him down, the Leafs offense sagged. The following year - Cujo's first with the team - the Leafs suddenly had a lot more offensive tools with defenders like Kaberle, Karpostsvev and Berard able to move the puck well from the backend and play a much more up tempo style and scorers like Berezin and Thomas up front adding depth and other options that made them a much more difficult team to defend against. With a defense that can move the puck, suddenly Steve Sullivan and Mike Johnson were also 20-goal scorers and the Leafs saw great improvement.

Cujo's stellar goaltending certainly helped the Leafs successfully play that up tempo style, but you make it sound like he showed up and suddenly the Leafs fortunes changed. That was a big year of transition for Toronto and Cujo was joined by a lot of other new faces like Berard, Kaberle, Markov (a bit player the previous year) Thomas and the emergence of Berezin to take the team to the next level.
Cujo was the beginning of everything in that transition. Kaberle, Markov, Tremblay would have had a hell of a time playing that uptempo game with a shell shocked Felix Potvin in net, and guys like Berezin, Thomas and Mike Johnson would probably have looked more than a little sloppy if their turnovers ended up in the back of the Leafs net. Cujo was simply a battler in the net who would cover up your mistakes and gambles more often than not and give you the sense of security to run and gun. The importance of that kind of player cannot be understated. If we had a prime Cujo in the nets during the Ron Wilson era, I don't think quite as many people would be talking about how little structure there was to his game or how garbage our blueline was or whatever.

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12-09-2012, 12:45 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Sigh.

The goal is winning the Stanley Cup. After signing in Dallas and Carolina respectively they went to three Stanley Cup Finals and won once. Hull scored the Cup winning goal. Hull led the playoffs in scoring.

Do you think any player - or fan - gives a **** about All-Star votes compared to competing for the Cup?
Dallas and Toronto didn't start out in the same place when Hull and Cujo were added to their rosters, so the cup argument is rather meaningless.

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