HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

How will Fehr explain a missed season (if that happens)?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-08-2012, 04:45 PM
  #126
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Is Phoenix bombing because of player salaries, or because they have terrible attendance with a nuclear arena?
You didn't answer my question in any way.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 04:48 PM
  #127
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
So how is NHLPA leader Don Fehr going to convince his clients that half of them need to lose their jobs for the betterment of the league?
Not going to happen but it doesn't change the reality that it would be best.

Confucius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 04:53 PM
  #128
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Atlanta (never shoulve imploded, deliberate)
Tampa (until Viniks arrival)
Sunrise (until reorganization)
Dallas (lets see what Galiardi does)
Columbus (beyond incompetent for a decade)
Phoenix (where do you even start?)
Nashville (only in the last 2yrs respectable)
Edmonton (Katz going full-on Extortion)

Long list actually. And no, Im not suggesting any of these teams be Contracted or Relocated. But to suggest Ownership & Management's hands in any given market are clean is to completely ignore reality. Like a reporter searching for abuses at nursing homes, all one has to do with practically any given franchise, large or small is kick over a few rocks. Not pretty.
You didn't answer my question in any way.

Providing a list of teams who have had bad times is not the answer.

NOWHERE did I claim that management hasn't made any mistakes, because there isn't a single company on earth which is completely mistake-free.

Try again.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 04:55 PM
  #129
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Try again.
Be specific Pepper. Re-state the question with criteria that we can all understand & appreciate, responding accordingly.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 04:59 PM
  #130
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Ok, please give us some examples and what exactly they have done wrong?
How about Boots Del Baggio with his crimes that impacted the preds financially. The former owners of the Sabres with their mismanagement in the Early 2000's Bruce McNall with the mismanagement of the Kings that led to several bad seasons in the late 2000's. More recently, atlanta's owners and their shenanigans. The BOG approved all of these people. The BOG did not bother to do background checks and allowed these people to hurt the game.

Melrose Munch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 05:03 PM
  #131
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Be specific Pepper. Re-state the question with criteria that we can all understand & appreciate, responding accordingly.
Ok, let's go back to the post I responed to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
It doesn't have to be a mistake, but there are owners/markets who have proven that they do not allow the league to reach their potential growth.
Which markets/owners have PROVEN that they do no allow the league to reach their potential growth?

So as an answer you have to tell me 2 things:

1) Who/what defines the potential growth?

2) Why and how haven't those owners/markets allowed the growth to their so-called potential?

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 05:04 PM
  #132
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Ok, let's go back to the post I responed to:



Which markets/owners have PROVEN that they do no allow the league to reach their potential growth?

So as an answer you have to tell me 2 things:

1) Who/what defines the potential growth?

2) Why and how haven't those owners/markets allowed the growth to their so-called potential?

1) The entire BOG
2) Marketing only some teams.

Melrose Munch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 05:05 PM
  #133
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
How about Boots Del Baggio with his crimes that impacted the preds financially. The former owners of the Sabres with their mismanagement in the Early 2000's Bruce McNall with the mismanagement of the Kings that led to several bad seasons in the late 2000's. More recently, atlanta's owners and their shenanigans. The BOG approved all of these people. The BOG did not bother to do background checks and allowed these people to hurt the game.
So how come the NHL should have know about these things when even the feds had no idea of those when it happened?

What do you want from the league? Jack Bauer going 24h on every team?

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 05:09 PM
  #134
du5566*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
The player’s first mistake was hiring Fehr. They could have gotten a fair deal without him; he will only lead the players down a path of destruction. The problem with Fehr is this is not the MLB…… Most of these players will not recoup this season’s money over the length of the next CBA due to Fehr’s negotiating tactics; which is how he kept the player unified during the MLB strike. Hopefully the players eventually realize this and sign the deal. With an average annual salary of 2.4 million the players really are lucky to be paid as well as they are considering the overall success and popularity of the sport. Fact is in the majority of North American households the NHL is 4th behind the NFL, MLB and NBA.


Last edited by du5566*: 12-08-2012 at 05:25 PM.
du5566* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 05:17 PM
  #135
nitz
Registered User
 
nitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Country: North Korea
Posts: 1,635
vCash: 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sour Shoes View Post
even JR, hardliner that he was in 2004, said the players should sign the ****ing thing.
JR isn't a player anymore and is simply watching out for his own ass so he can continue to work for NHL teams. I wouldn't put too much stock into what he says.

nitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 05:21 PM
  #136
du5566*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitz View Post
JR isn't a player anymore and is simply watching out for his own ass so he can continue to work for NHL teams. I wouldn't put too much stock into what he says.
Haha, that's JR's style right? Company man who holds his tongue and doesn't say what's really on his mind.

du5566* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 05:27 PM
  #137
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
1) Who/what defines the potential growth?
2) Why and how haven't those owners/markets allowed the growth to their so-called potential?
1) Ownership determines that in how they comport themselves & conduct their businesses in any given market. There are only a few that receive byes', free out of jail cards in this 30 team league regardless of on ice performance, intransigence and or downright malfeasance in the executive suites.

2) Again, see my former post listing 5 or 6 teams who have grossly underperformed, alienated their fan bases, shot themselves in the foot repeatedly, be they just completely incompetent or masochists. You decide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
What do you want from the league? Jack Bauer going 24h on every team?
Basic due diligence, honesty, integrity & at least some transparency would be nice for starters. Instead, when asked whatever pretty much, league officials obfuscate, attack the premise of any given line of questioning that varies from their rehearsed talking points & messaging; very adept at derailing their "interrogaters" whereby they'll simply launch into obstreperous rebuttals while talking over whomever it was that they were just seconds ago jovially conversing with and so on & so forth. All old & tired tricks of the trade, debate. Very obvious & cheap. Arrogant & contemptible.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 05:45 PM
  #138
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 110,423
vCash: 5602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Which markets/owners have PROVEN that they do no allow the league to reach their potential growth?

So as an answer you have to tell me 2 things:

1) Who/what defines the potential growth?

2) Why and how haven't those owners/markets allowed the growth to their so-called potential?
The NHL has been paying the Coyotes' bills for 4 years now. That's half of this past CBA. We can cut to the chase here if you just admit that in their failings, "player salaries" are far down on the list.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 05:54 PM
  #139
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
1) Ownership determines that in how they comport themselves & conduct their businesses in any given market. There are only a few that receive byes', free out of jail cards in this 30 team league regardless of on ice performance, intransigence and or downright malfeasance in the executive suites.
Ok, I'm gonna play with your idea of "potential growth".

What was the potential growth of the teams you listed?

How much did the teams on your list miss the potential growth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
2) Again, see my former post listing 5 or 6 teams who have grossly underperformed, alienated their fan bases, shot themselves in the foot repeatedly, be they just completely incompetent or masochists. You decide.
Underperforming is a totally different thing.We can all agree that there has been problem with just about EVERY team in the NHL. You want a list? ok, I'll make one:

Toronto = Ballard is the butt of a joke even these days
Rangers = Sather was the laughter stock for the late 90's/early 00's
Montreal = Ronald Corey, a joke. Even in french.
Boston = Sinden didn't achieve anything since their 90's SC apperance.
Canucks = the whole hockey world is laughing at them
Ottawa = 1 step away from collapsing

etc etc

You can't pick your spots because there are 30 teams in the NHL who have screwed up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Basic due diligence, honesty, integrity & at least some transparency would be nice for starters. Instead, when asked whatever pretty much, league officials obfuscate, attack the premise of any given line of questioning that varies from their rehearsed talking points & messaging; very adept at derailing their "interrogaters" whereby they'll simply launch into obstreperous rebuttals while talking over whomever it was that they were just seconds ago jovially conversing with and so on & so forth. All old & tired tricks of the trade, debate. Very obvious & cheap. Arrogant & contemptible.
This is beyond ridiculous. What did the NHL do wrong? What should have they known what the criminal prosecutors didn't?

Are you really claiming that the billionaire new owners of NHL teams forgot to do "basic due diligence"?

Oh why didnt' those owners consult Hf Boards before signing the deals...

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 05:54 PM
  #140
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,405
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
The NHL has been paying the Coyotes' bills for 4 years now. That's half of this past CBA. We can cut to the chase here if you just admit that in their failings, "player salaries" are far down on the list.
Answer the question and we'll go from there.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 06:10 PM
  #141
icerocket
Registered User
 
icerocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Atlantis
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,316
vCash: 500
Owners are the ones who created this mess.

icerocket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 06:11 PM
  #142
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 110,423
vCash: 5602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Answer the question and we'll go from there.
This isn't a seminar. You're the one on the defensive there. The topic of Glendale and the Phoenix Coyotes is common knowledge to people on this board. If you're going to bring player salaries into it as the biggest issue, there really is no hope when it comes to your cognitive reasoning and thinking skills. We get it already - you have an agenda, so just tell us all here what we already know about the Coyotes.

GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 06:24 PM
  #143
NugentHopkinsfan
Registered User
 
NugentHopkinsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 9,087
vCash: 500
I love how Fehr gets all this blame when he has conceded on so many big issues. Was Fehr around last time when Gary killed an entire season? No but yet it's all Fehr. His side has agreed to throw away 290 million worth of current, signed, guaranteed contracts(yet another bailout for the owners), he's agreed to decrease the players share by 7% going forward, he's agreed to put a limit on the terms of contracts, and he's agreed to have a longer CBA than usual. Yet his side is causing this? He's getting nothing in return, the only thing the owners are ''giving up'' is keeping everything else the same.

Come on.

NugentHopkinsfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 06:31 PM
  #144
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
What was the potential growth of the teams you listed? How much did the teams on your list miss the potential growth?.... Are you really claiming that the billionaire new owners of NHL teams forgot to do "basic due diligence"?.
What was/is the potential growth of Atlanta, Nashville, Carolina, Dallas, Phoenix, Columbus and all the rest of them? The skys' the limit. There is no stopping ownership groups in any of those markets (and more) from absolutely punching a hole right through the ozone provided they care, know what their doing. All of them, each & every one, all 30 teams (and those that have expired) have failed to varying degree's. None of them are immune. Some franchises changing hands, others created in the first place as being little more than a hook to a real estate play, municipal largesse or whatever... and ya, thats exactly what Im saying. They've not only failed to do due diligence, theyve been corrupted and are corrupt. Since 1917. A lot more sophisticated than they once were, but still a dysfunctional mess of duplicitous self dealing & nepotism. A hierarchical caste system much like one would find in a late 19th or early 20th century private British club like Boodles or the Roehampton. Seriously antiquated. Rigid. Anachronistic. Risk becoming irrelevant entirely.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 06:45 PM
  #145
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
So how come the NHL should have know about these things when even the feds had no idea of those when it happened?

What do you want from the league? Jack Bauer going 24h on every team?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Ok, I'm gonna play with your idea of "potential growth".

What was the potential growth of the teams you listed?

How much did the teams on your list miss the potential growth?



Underperforming is a totally different thing.We can all agree that there has been problem with just about EVERY team in the NHL. You want a list? ok, I'll make one:

Toronto = Ballard is the butt of a joke even these days
Rangers = Sather was the laughter stock for the late 90's/early 00's
Montreal = Ronald Corey, a joke. Even in french.
Boston = Sinden didn't achieve anything since their 90's SC apperance.
Canucks = the whole hockey world is laughing at them
Ottawa = 1 step away from collapsing

etc etc

You can't pick your spots because there are 30 teams in the NHL who have screwed up.



This is beyond ridiculous. What did the NHL do wrong? What should have they known what the criminal prosecutors didn't?

Are you really claiming that the billionaire new owners of NHL teams forgot to do "basic due diligence"?

Oh why didnt' those owners consult Hf Boards before signing the deals...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Answer the question and we'll go from there.
You're supposed to know when someone stinks. We are taught this as kids. maybe you wern't, but my father let me know when there was a rat a mile away. No they didn't do due dilligence because if they did none of those incidenct would have ever happened. So tell me why certain are on tv always. I'll wait.

Or this is a game you're playing. You're playing games with the rest of the board. Anaheim stand to benefit from a new CBA because then they'll get free money because of changes in the CBA which will allow small teams in big markets to make money. this is free money to you and nothing else.

Melrose Munch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 06:46 PM
  #146
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,292
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I love how Fehr gets all this blame when he has conceded on so many big issues. Was Fehr around last time when Gary killed an entire season? No but yet it's all Fehr. His side has agreed to throw away 290 million worth of current, signed, guaranteed contracts(yet another bailout for the owners), he's agreed to decrease the players share by 7% going forward, he's agreed to put a limit on the terms of contracts, and he's agreed to have a longer CBA than usual. Yet his side is causing this? He's getting nothing in return, the only thing the owners are ''giving up'' is keeping everything else the same.

Come on.
Right. This is why this league is in the 11th hour again, because it's always someone else's fault.

Melrose Munch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 07:33 PM
  #147
Orrthebest
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I love how Fehr gets all this blame when he has conceded on so many big issues. Was Fehr around last time when Gary killed an entire season? No but yet it's all Fehr. His side has agreed to throw away 290 million worth of current, signed, guaranteed contracts(yet another bailout for the owners), he's agreed to decrease the players share by 7% going forward, he's agreed to put a limit on the terms of contracts, and he's agreed to have a longer CBA than usual. Yet his side is causing this? He's getting nothing in return, the only thing the owners are ''giving up'' is keeping everything else the same.

Come on.


What concessions have the Players made? What in the players offers is better for the owners than the NFL and NBA deals? These should be the same question. The NFL and NBA compete directly against the NHL for the fans dollars. Having a much worse CBA puts the NHL is a big disadvantage in attracting the dollars from fans and this puts them a big disadvantage when it comes to attracting owners and investors. The reason there is so many teams mismanaged is because the only reason to buy an NHL franchise is because you love the sport.

Orrthebest is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 08:00 PM
  #148
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
The reason there is so many teams mismanaged is because the only reason to buy an NHL franchise is because you love the sport.
Otb, if you think the only reason individuals or investment groups by an NHL franchise is because they love the sport of hockey, well, I hate to be the one to break this to you but nothing could be farther from the truth. You do get the odd owner, like Pegula in Buffalo, Gagliardi in Dallas and a few others who do indeed love the game but by & large these are simply businessmen who buy franchises in order to curry favours amongst the 30 member club; looking for tax breaks & or municipal largesse; the team itself simply the emotional quotient or "hook", a means to an end.

Franchises bought to be sold at a later date. Their all basically real estate speculators & or developers; some with additional or even mainstream interests in broadcasting, new media, concessions, arena management, hotel & hospitality moguls, sports & entertainment event marketing & bookings etc. Hockey is still the cheapest buy-in of the 4 major sports, franchise values however on the up & significantly since the 04/05 Lockout, and that in and of itself is the single most important element to all of these owners. Franchise values plummet, and they will if this goes on much longer, in fact may have already retarded or stunted them somewhat, Gary Bettmans out of a job.

The true "love of the game" is the purview of the players themselves. They, not the NHL, not the owners, they own the game. Anyones who's ever played it owns a piece of the game. Anyones who's ever watched it & fallen in love with its athleticism, artistry & symmetry,
they own the game. These guys, the league itself, just a business. Pure, cold, calculating. No room for sentimentality, benevolence, munificence. They play for keeps, take no prisoners. Thats just the way of the world, the way it is.


Last edited by Killion: 12-08-2012 at 08:06 PM.
Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 08:10 PM
  #149
Orrthebest
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Otb, if you think the only reason individuals or investment groups by an NHL franchise is because they love the sport of hockey...
They would be much better off if they bought an NBA franchise as the anchor to their developments.


Last edited by Killion: 12-08-2012 at 08:18 PM. Reason: bandwidth..
Orrthebest is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-08-2012, 08:18 PM
  #150
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
Having a much worse CBA puts the NHL is a big disadvantage in attracting the dollars from fans and this puts them a big disadvantage when it comes to attracting owners and investors. The reason there is so many teams mismanaged is because the only reason to buy an NHL franchise is because you love the sport.
Unless you're buying one of the big teams (Toronto, Philly, New York, Montreal, etc). For now every team in Canada - assuming it's well run should post some sort of profit.

__________________
"Itís not as if Donald Fehr was lying to us, several players said. Rather, itís as if he has been economical with information, these players believe, not sharing facts these players consider to be vital."
Riptide is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:48 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.