HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Players Starting to Ask Uncomfortable Questions of NHLPA Leadership

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-08-2012, 08:07 PM
  #51
Elever
Hth
 
Elever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,480
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall View Post
Lindros and his clowns have been the problem, and it's past time the rank-and-file kick their ***** out, as well as their 'leader'.

Pro-Fehr folks never seem to mention the article about Kelly's firing, how it happened, and who orchestrated it and why.
This is fine and all but it's pointless and reckless now to turn on that decision as it would make their negotiation position weaker if they fire Fehr and bring in someone else.

In my mind Fehr has been successful if anything by limiting the damage based on recent proposals and also PO'ing off Bettman. If Bettman is mad then that means the guy he's negotiating with is as good as he is. They've lost money as is, you might as well stick to the guy who'll get you a deal that will be respectful at least rather than capitulating and going with someone who is going to accept something weaker. If a new PA leader comes in then I guarantee the NHL's next offer will be closer to that August offer than the current one.

Elever is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 08:14 PM
  #52
Boltsfan2029
Registered User
 
Boltsfan2029's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In deleted threads
Country: United States
Posts: 6,289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Well that's fine, it just doesn't make any sense, and doesn't explain how he's "using the players." It was the players wanted his help, not him banging down their door.




He was already Union head of the MLBPA, and came down to the NHLPA. There's no going up.
It may not make sense to you. And that's fine.

As you say, the players wanted his help, which was their first mistake. They weren't particularly looking for a fair deal, they were looking for revenge. Fehr had no interest in them or the NHLPA, yet he came out of retirement to handle this CBA. Why? Because he's concerned about the welfare of the players? They were at the peak of their lucrativeness (not sure that's a word but you get the point) and had the best revenue split of any sport in North America, IIRC. So, what's in it for him? The circumstance of players being more focused on revenge than getting a good deal, which gave him the opportunity to crush the owners and add to his legacy of changing the face of a sport - the way he did in nearly destroying MLB. And he's "using" the players because he's costing them every day while he continues his fight.

It's not the position he holds, it's how he will be remembered over the years, and here was a perfect opportunity to add to that lore. It's just sad to me that in that year he refused to negotiate because he had to familiarize himself with the product that he didn't learn that the NHL isn't MLB. It's not healthy enough, and it doesn't have a large enough fan base, to rebound if he burns it down. And while he may have another notch in his belt, the owners, players and fans could be left in the ashes.

Boltsfan2029 is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 08:29 PM
  #53
Up the Irons
Registered User
 
Up the Irons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,380
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I've heard that, too, but if anything, I think hurting themselves financially in these negotiations more than necessary is going to weaken their resolve, and hence their leverage, in the next negotiations more than it strengthens them.

They may have hurt the owners, but they hurt themselves more, and leverage is a comparison between two sides.
i can understand the fight for future generations. the players have to show the owners that they can't just lock them out with a loss to themselves. a lockout can never be a win across the board.

but the players, in fact all parties involved, are overlooking the damage to the NHL's brand and integrity and, indeed, the damage to the likeability of NHL players. I know that i definitely am having a difficult time being interested in players that are completely consumed by money and their union.

Up the Irons is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 08:31 PM
  #54
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 111,828
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
It may not make sense to you. And that's fine.

As you say, the players wanted his help, which was their first mistake. They weren't particularly looking for a fair deal, they were looking for revenge. Fehr had no interest in them or the NHLPA, yet he came out of retirement to handle this CBA. Why? Because he's concerned about the welfare of the players? They were at the peak of their lucrativeness (not sure that's a word but you get the point) and had the best revenue split of any sport in North America, IIRC. So, what's in it for him? The circumstance of players being more focused on revenge than getting a good deal, which gave him the opportunity to crush the owners and add to his legacy of changing the face of a sport - the way he did in nearly destroying MLB. And he's "using" the players because he's costing them every day while he continues his fight.

It's not the position he holds, it's how he will be remembered over the years, and here was a perfect opportunity to add to that lore. It's just sad to me that in that year he refused to negotiate because he had to familiarize himself with the product that he didn't learn that the NHL isn't MLB. It's not healthy enough, and it doesn't have a large enough fan base, to rebound if he burns it down. And while he may have another notch in his belt, the owners, players and fans could be left in the ashes.
Did you forget the part where before he was NHLPA Executive Director, he was working as an adviser for free? As in, wasn't getting a cent?

Did you also forget that this past year there was 'record revenues' after they burned it down 8 years ago?

The NHL players also had the best revenue split in pro sports...and tried to keep it that way. That's not the director sports was moving though, the NFL and NBA are all basically going 50/50.

You says what's in it for him is crushing the NHL owners, which isn't really a tangible idea. He has nothing to do with the owners, how would what happens to them affect him in any sort of way other than this 'legacy.'

He also didn't 'nearly destroy' MLB, that's the line people use when they reveal themselves to have no grasp for what the sport accomplished while he was working for the players within it.

GKJ is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 08:41 PM
  #55
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
How many players are in the NHLPA and how many have spoken out.
686 are under contract on NHL rosters. This doesn't count guys like Redden who are not on an NHL roster at this time.

__________________
"Itís not as if Donald Fehr was lying to us, several players said. Rather, itís as if he has been economical with information, these players believe, not sharing facts these players consider to be vital."
Riptide is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 08:55 PM
  #56
Ari91
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,468
vCash: 500
If true, sounds like players are frustrated with not knowing what the 'plan' is and aren't getting satisfactory answers to their questions. It's hard to justify silence and support when you feel like you aren't being included or your concerns aren't being taken seriously. Regardless of whether it's the players fault or the reps fault or Fehr's fault that these issues are existing in the current dynamic, it's something that needs to be addressed internally and done so quickly.

Players stepping up and speaking out may not force the committee to send a proposal to a vote, but it does open up the possibility of being detrimental to the PA's bargaining position which is exactly why Fehr supporters have to stop saying 'trust our leadership' and rather start answering questions.

Cole pretty much confirmed this kind of thinking when he was talking about Hamrlik. When Hamrlik was expressing his concerns and desire to take a deal earlier on, Cole described other players' response as 'are you kidding me?' 'what's wrong with you?'. If addressing concerns internally get you that kind of responses from your fellow union members, then as crappy as it is to put your union in that position, you leak your concerns to the public because you feel it's the only way to be heard. Maybe the solution for the PA internally is simply taking a more understanding approach to members who don't completely trust in Fehr's strategy rather than brush it off like the way Cole described the way Hamrlik's concerns were brushed off.

Ari91 is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 09:08 PM
  #57
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuietCompany View Post
This is fine and all but it's pointless and reckless now to turn on that decision as it would make their negotiation position weaker if they fire Fehr and bring in someone else.

They've lost money as is, you might as well stick to the guy who'll get you a deal that will be respectful at least rather than capitulating and going with someone who is going to accept something weaker. If a new PA leader comes in then I guarantee the NHL's next offer will be closer to that August offer than the current one.
As much as I think Fehr hasn't helped the PA get the best deal possible, they can't fire him without a deal getting done. Instead of getting rid of him, Fehr and the negotiating committee need to be told in no uncertain terms that the players want a deal done, and want to get it done NOW.

Riptide is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 09:27 PM
  #58
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 12,051
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
686 are under contract on NHL rosters. This doesn't count guys like Redden who are not on an NHL roster at this time.
Actually Redden is on the Rangers roster right now.

mouser is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 09:31 PM
  #59
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Actually Redden is on the Rangers roster right now.
Not according to Capgeek he's not. http://capgeek.com/rangers/

He's on their AHL roster. Perhaps I should word it differently.

Riptide is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 09:42 PM
  #60
JAX
Registered User
 
JAX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sault Ste. Marie
Country: Canada
Posts: 896
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
As much as I think Fehr hasn't helped the PA get the best deal possible, they can't fire him without a deal getting done. Instead of getting rid of him, Fehr and the negotiating committee need to be told in no uncertain terms that the players want a deal done, and want to get it done NOW.



That's what might have to happen, firing him isn't realistic or a good move at this point. but the longer he drags this on not only are the players losing paychecks but the HRR that will take a hit because of this and the fan backlash that is still unknown.

Maybe that's another reason why Fehr wanted to get rid of linkage 1) so he knows the league won't except the deal so he can continue to stall and
2) so he continue the fight and not have to worry about the damage effecting salaries should he continue a prolonged fight.

JAX is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 09:43 PM
  #61
Boltsfan2029
Registered User
 
Boltsfan2029's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In deleted threads
Country: United States
Posts: 6,289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Did you forget the part where before he was NHLPA Executive Director, he was working as an adviser for free? As in, wasn't getting a cent?
Not at all. Not being in it for the money means he was in it for something else.

Quote:
Did you also forget that this past year there was 'record revenues' after they burned it down 8 years ago?
Not at all. I mentioned that when the players approached him they had the most lucrative deal they'd ever had and, at least in the area of revenue split, better than any other sport had.

Quote:
You says what's in it for him is crushing the NHL owners, which isn't really a tangible idea. He has nothing to do with the owners, how would what happens to them affect him in any sort of way other than this 'legacy.'
Brass tacks - he represents the players against the owners. His method of doing so is to attempt to crush the owners/league/whatever-you-want-to-call-it into total submission. If he has to do so by hurting the players along the way (costing them more than they gain), he will do it.

Quote:
He also didn't 'nearly destroy' MLB, that's the line people use when they reveal themselves to have no grasp for what the sport accomplished while he was working for the players within it.
Disagree. The sport, as far as fan support and loyalty, was set back for years. Matter of fact, it still hasn't fully recovered to its state of popularity prior to Fehr, and it may never.

It's my personal belief that the NHL would be unable to recover even to the extent MLB has if this "negotiation" continues on Fehr's course.

Boltsfan2029 is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 09:45 PM
  #62
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Im calling ********.

Fehr has said all along any player who wants to be in the room can be there.

So if you aren't happy get involved and make your oppinion heard. Otherwise shut the **** up and let your union do its job.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 09:54 PM
  #63
DuklaNation
Registered User
 
DuklaNation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,827
vCash: 500
I like the record revenues line. There were also record expenses. Nice omission.

DuklaNation is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:11 PM
  #64
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Im calling ********.

Fehr has said all along any player who wants to be in the room can be there.

So if you aren't happy get involved and make your oppinion heard. Otherwise shut the **** up and let your union do its job.
Good on you... that's your opinion.

However everyone initially said the players were all united. Yet when there's 700+ players, that's not really realistic - as there's too many variables (age, past/future earnings, career, etc) for that to last for long. Then Hamrlik and Neuvirth spoke out (confirming what most have been saying - that the PA isn't 100% together), and everyone completely slams them. Then people wonder why others haven't spoken out, or claim that everyone other than those 2 are 100% behind Fehr and the PA.

Riptide is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:12 PM
  #65
Erik Estrada
@Denis.Coderre
 
Erik Estrada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,466
vCash: 500
If he has in fact lost the support of the Executive Commitee and the membership, now's the time for the players to remove him or make him a nominal figurehead.

Erik Estrada is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:18 PM
  #66
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 111,828
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Not at all. Not being in it for the money means he was in it for something else.



Not at all. I mentioned that when the players approached him they had the most lucrative deal they'd ever had and, at least in the area of revenue split, better than any other sport had.

First off, it was better than what any sport had, because the other sports had just redone their CBA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Brass tacks - he represents the players against the owners. His method of doing so is to attempt to crush the owners/league/whatever-you-want-to-call-it into total submission. If he has to do so by hurting the players along the way (costing them more than they gain), he will do it.
So, he's just doing this because he hates owners and wants to make their lives miserable just because he can. It may be your personal opinion, but it doesn't mean that you're not an irrational hater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Disagree. The sport, as far as fan support and loyalty, was set back for years. Matter of fact, it still hasn't fully recovered to its state of popularity prior to Fehr, and it may never.


It's my personal belief that the NHL would be unable to recover even to the extent MLB has if this "negotiation" continues on Fehr's course.
Go check the salaries of MLB players as well as team revenues and let me know if they're worse off. Let's cut the love of the game crap out here, this is a forum strictly about business. David Ortiz by 2015 will have made $125M in his career despite being unable to field. He may not even bother having a glove in the clubhouse unless it's interleague. But, it's a sport that's 'nearly destroyed.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
I like the record revenues line. There were also record expenses. Nice omission.
Bettman never talked about it either.

GKJ is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:22 PM
  #67
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Good on you... that's your opinion.

However everyone initially said the players were all united. Yet when there's 700+ players, that's not really realistic - as there's too many variables (age, past/future earnings, career, etc) for that to last for long. Then Hamrlik and Neuvirth spoke out (confirming what most have been saying - that the PA isn't 100% together), and everyone completely slams them. Then people wonder why others haven't spoken out, or claim that everyone other than those 2 are 100% behind Fehr and the PA.
Look I know you can't get 10 people in a room and have concensus let alone 700+.

But when you are in a union you DO NOT go public with concerns or differences of oppinion. You become involved in the process and make your oppinions heard while with your union brothers(and sisters) but not infront of management and in the media.

Fehr has said everyone is welcome, and I am sure all these guys can afford a plane ticket and a few nights in a hotel room, so why aren't they there?

If they aren't going to get involved then they have no right to step outside the union and ***** and whine to the media. As far as I am concerned they should have forfeited their union status as soon as they came out in public. BUt I am a bit of a hardass when it comes to this stuff.

Owners get fined for speaking about the lockout, and the PA should hold it's members to a similar standard.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:29 PM
  #68
Erik Estrada
@Denis.Coderre
 
Erik Estrada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Fehr has said everyone is welcome, and I am sure all these guys can afford a plane ticket and a few nights in a hotel room, so why aren't they there?

If they aren't going to get involved then they have no right to step outside the union and ***** and whine to the media. As far as I am concerned they should have forfeited their union status as soon as they came out in public. BUt I am a bit of a hardass when it comes to this stuff.

.
Except the PA pays for their plane ticket and their hotel room if they want to participate.

Erik Estrada is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:29 PM
  #69
PensFanSince1989
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,843
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
First off, it was better than what any sport had, because the other sports had just redone their CBA.

It was always better than the NFL, and MLB while not as good for the star players, better for the NHLPA membership as a whole than the MLB CBA. I'm not too familiar with the old NBA CBA, but I know they had contract term limits prior to this one, and I'm gonna take shot in the dark and say NBA players didn't make 57% of revenue prior to this CBA.

And the NHL has now offered a new CBA more player friendly than either the NBA's or NFL's new CBA.

PensFanSince1989 is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:32 PM
  #70
haseoke39
**** Cycle 4 Eichel
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,318
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
It was always better than the NFL, and MLB while not as good for the star players, better for the NHLPA membership as a whole than the MLB CBA. I'm not too familiar with the old NBA CBA, but I know they had contract term limits prior to this one, and I'm gonna take shot in the dark and say NBA players didn't make 57% of revenue prior to this CBA.

And the NHL has now offered a new CBA more player friendly than either the NBA's or NFL's new CBA.
And let's not forget that MLB actually spends around 45% of revenue on players.

haseoke39 is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:35 PM
  #71
ScottyBowman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Detroit
Country: United States
Posts: 2,049
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Except the PA pays for their plane ticket and their hotel room if they want to participate.
This is why I believe a lot of this stuff from the media is planted by the owners so other players hear it and start to believe this malarky. Just look at the foaming of the mouth the owner groupies had when Bettman made that oscar winning speech.

ScottyBowman is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:37 PM
  #72
DuklaNation
Registered User
 
DuklaNation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,827
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post


Bettman never talked about it either.
So what. Just stating record revenues is misleading when there are also record expenses.

DuklaNation is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:39 PM
  #73
The Bob Cole
Ohhhh Baby.
 
The Bob Cole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Centre Ice
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Well that's fine, it just doesn't make any sense, and doesn't explain how he's "using the players." It was the players wanted his help, not him banging down their door.




He was already Union head of the MLBPA, and came down to the NHLPA. There's no going up.
Plenty of other unions out there that can pay big money aside from major league sports. Or vice versa, he can represent management whenever he wants to as well, he isn't bound to the union side.

The Bob Cole is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:40 PM
  #74
sixgunsdad
Registered User
 
sixgunsdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 134
vCash: 500
That's what I'm not understanding. What can he get now for the players that makes it better for them over the offer to play 82 games. Why aren't the players asking these questions? Why do you only here from a few players asking questions? I just am not seeing an effort to end this.

sixgunsdad is offline  
Old
12-08-2012, 10:46 PM
  #75
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Except the PA pays for their plane ticket and their hotel room if they want to participate.
If it's free that only makes their absence worse.

IF they can't take a free trip to NY to get involved then they can keep their mouths shut.

Look I'm not on one side or the other, but I know how you're supposed to act in a union, and going public with your own little issues is not the right way to act.

charliolemieux is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:54 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.