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Old
12-08-2012, 11:56 PM
  #326
Numbers
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
My issue is that if we deal Bozak, it's with the intent that Colborne is the one replacing him somewhere in the lineup. We do not have an quality depth in this position. The only other players we have that fill their roles are Grabo (2nd line) and McClement (3rd but should be 4th). Connolly is crap, as is Steckel.
I can understand where you are coming from but do you honestly believe Colborne will replace Bozak this year? He has 7 points in the AHL. Next year you can always find of a UFA of similar calibre to replace Bozak. But to be honest this in many ways leads me to a point that many Leaf do not agree with. I think that Bozak is more important to your team then Kulemin. The Leafs are in a position of strength at the winger position. Leafs are thin at center. There is no doubt that Toronto would be fine without Kulemin, because they were last year where wingers were a strength and now they acquired JVR. Anyways Kulemin's 30 goal season no one will let go of so it somehow makes him irreplaceable. Anyways just an idea to help their team, but I'm just fine taking Bozak, to the Canucks values of Bozak and Kulemin are equal.

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12-09-2012, 12:06 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I can understand where you are coming from but do you honestly believe Colborne will replace Bozak this year? He has 7 points in the AHL. Next year you can always find of a UFA of similar calibre to replace Bozak. But to be honest this in many ways leads me to a point that many Leaf do not agree with. I think that Bozak is more important to your team then Kulemin. The Leafs are in a position of strength at the winger position. Leafs are thin at center. There is no doubt that Toronto would be fine without Kulemin, because they were last year where wingers were a strength and now they acquired JVR. Anyways Kulemin's 30 goal season no one will let go of so it somehow makes him irreplaceable. Anyways just an idea to help their team, but I'm just fine taking Bozak, to the Canucks values of Bozak and Kulemin are equal.
Kulemin isn't irreplaceable but his combination of size and defensive responsibility is a rarity amongst current Leaf wingers. Also, trading him now would be selling low. That's why the hesitation.

Bozak may be in a more crucial role for the Leafs at the moment, but Kulemin is the better player.

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:16 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Kulemin isn't irreplaceable but his combination of size and defensive responsibility is a rarity amongst current Leaf wingers. Also, trading him now would be selling low. That's why the hesitation.

Bozak may be in a more crucial role for the Leafs at the moment, but Kulemin is the better player.
If value is similar who would not want to ice the better team? Could be a difference in the playoffs. Either way as I said Bozak or Kulemin are equal to Canucks so no problem. Here's the deal that so far have been well received by quite a few Leaf fans.

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker

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12-09-2012, 12:21 AM
  #329
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This thread has cracked me up.

Im, a Leafs fan.

Luongo is a GREAT goalie! We all know he is capable of stealing multiple games. His cap hit is amazing. It is amazing because of the terrible term.

I would love to have him in Toronto. But not at the asking price by most Canuck fans in this thread.

And for whoever said Toronto could easily trade Luongo to a cap floor team later in Luongo's contract. Who are you kidding?

Vancouver is having a hard time getting proper value for Luongo right now! What makes you think Toronto would be able to get "a 2nd or 3rd rounder" when Luongo is 38 or so. The only way a team would be able to trade Luongo in the final years of his contract would be to give up more assets than your getting back. Eg) Luongo and a 2nd for a 2nd type of deal. Why would any team be willing to take that contract off your hands while giving you an asset? To get to the cap floor? Why not do what Florida did and overpay UFA that will be off the books in a year or two?

The term on the contract is horrible. And that is devaluing Luongo whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

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12-09-2012, 12:31 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Yeah Higgins, Hansen and Booth are all players I'd be interested in acquiring but you mentioned Vancouver wouldn't be interested in moving them. Unfortunately none of them recently have shown capable of providing a strictly points punch that would slot them ahead of MacArthur in terms of scoring I don't think. Higgins/Hansen would certainly be a 3rd line upgrade though.

Lupul + Connolly for Luongo + Replacement Winger is a very interesting idea. The question being...who fits the replacement bill?
Personally, I would not trade Higgins or Hansen. Booth, possibly but only for a higher return. Short of Raymond, we would have to deal in picks as Vancouver has few prospects they would part with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VasDimops View Post
This thread has cracked me up.

Im, a Leafs fan.

Luongo is a GREAT goalie! We all know he is capable of stealing multiple games. His cap hit is amazing. It is amazing because of the terrible term.

I would love to have him in Toronto. But not at the asking price by most Canuck fans in this thread.

And for whoever said Toronto could easily trade Luongo to a cap floor team later in Luongo's contract. Who are you kidding?

Vancouver is having a hard time getting proper value for Luongo right now! What makes you think Toronto would be able to get "a 2nd or 3rd rounder" when Luongo is 38 or so. The only way a team would be able to trade Luongo in the final years of his contract would be to give up more assets than your getting back. Eg) Luongo and a 2nd for a 2nd type of deal. Why would any team be willing to take that contract off your hands while giving you an asset? To get to the cap floor? Why not do what Florida did and overpay UFA that will be off the books in a year or two?

The term on the contract is horrible. And that is devaluing Luongo whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
No, they would give up essentially nothing (3rd-5th) and gain a large cap hit instead of having to spend actual dollars. It has been explained to death why cap floor hits would have an interest down the road and I care not to explain it again.

The fact remains we are not giving up Luongo unless something of value is coming our way. If you do not wish to entertain that notion. Why are you posting here?


Last edited by Bourne Endeavor: 12-09-2012 at 12:38 AM.
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Old
12-09-2012, 12:33 AM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VasDimops View Post
This thread has cracked me up.

Im, a Leafs fan.

Luongo is a GREAT goalie! We all know he is capable of stealing multiple games. His cap hit is amazing. It is amazing because of the terrible term.

I would love to have him in Toronto. But not at the asking price by most Canuck fans in this thread.

And for whoever said Toronto could easily trade Luongo to a cap floor team later in Luongo's contract. Who are you kidding?

Vancouver is having a hard time getting proper value for Luongo right now! What makes you think Toronto would be able to get "a 2nd or 3rd rounder" when Luongo is 38 or so. The only way a team would be able to trade Luongo in the final years of his contract would be to give up more assets than your getting back. Eg) Luongo and a 2nd for a 2nd type of deal. Why would any team be willing to take that contract off your hands while giving you an asset? To get to the cap floor? Why not do what Florida did and overpay UFA that will be off the books in a year or two?

The term on the contract is horrible. And that is devaluing Luongo whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
If it were horrible no GMs would give it. By far the most likely scenario is he retires before the term is up. Trading him to a cap floor team is only if he wants to continue playing. The rreason why Luongo hasn't been traded(apart from the lockout) is Gillis' enormous asking price. In 5-6 years from now though, if Luongo still wants to play, there's no reason why a team like Florida wouldn't give up, say, a 3rd round pick for him. Essentially making it like a 5-6 year contract. That's the whole reason the contract is structured that way. There are "dummy" years at the end so that the player makes the equivalent of 6.7 million dollars, while only taking up 5.3 million in cap space. It is ideal for any team that spends to the cap while his salary is 6.7 million, and the last years when he makes 3.3, 1.6, 1, 1 are either not going to be played out or can be spent playing in somewhere like Florida.

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Old
12-09-2012, 01:00 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
If value is similar who would not want to ice the better team? Could be a difference in the playoffs. Either way as I said Bozak or Kulemin are equal to Canucks so no problem. Here's the deal that so far have been well received by quite a few Leaf fans.

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker
I don't consider value similar personally. I value Kulemin higher.

The value on that deal is worth it to me but like I was saying earlier the Leafs need to send more salary.

This is why I proposed earlier adding Lombardi or, my preference due to chemistry, swap Bozak for Connolly. You may differ on this opinion but I see Connolly and Bozak as similar quality of players.

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Old
12-09-2012, 02:12 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
I don't consider value similar personally. I value Kulemin higher.

The value on that deal is worth it to me but like I was saying earlier the Leafs need to send more salary.

This is why I proposed earlier adding Lombardi or, my preference due to chemistry, swap Bozak for Connolly. You may differ on this opinion but I see Connolly and Bozak as similar quality of players.
Connolly is 31 and injury prone. Bozak is 26 and a piece we can resign, not a guy in decline. I'm sorry but value is not close and if you believe so then fair enough. I'm not pushing for Kulemin, so you don't need to push for Connolly. In regards to salary why do you need to send more? With this trade you will be adding a net of 3.8 million and if cap remains at 70 million this year, as it appears to be going to, Toronto will have a total of 67 million. I just don't see the problem, especially since Connolly and many other guys like Lombardi will be coming off books next year when cap does crunch. I'm glad we see value in my deal and agree. Another Leaf fan on board, this is starting to appear to be concensus deal finally!

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker

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Old
12-09-2012, 03:04 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
I don't consider value similar personally. I value Kulemin higher.

The value on that deal is worth it to me but like I was saying earlier the Leafs need to send more salary.

This is why I proposed earlier adding Lombardi or, my preference due to chemistry, swap Bozak for Connolly. You may differ on this opinion but I see Connolly and Bozak as similar quality of players.
If you swap out a piece it changes the value. If you add a piece it is a cap dump, and something else must return. On top of that you would have to let us send a contract or two back, as we would be at the 50 contract limit.

So it would have to be more pieces that to me makes it unrealistic... not that what we have is what will happen.

So if it was Connolly, it should look like this:

Connolly
Kadri
Frattin - first raise for taking Connolly (Helps I am really not a fan of Colbourne)
Finn
3rd? 4th? - second add for taking Connolly

Luongo
contract dump/AHL farmhand

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Old
12-09-2012, 03:26 AM
  #335
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If you swap out a piece it changes the value. If you add a piece it is a cap dump, and something else must return. On top of that you would have to let us send a contract or two back, as we would be at the 50 contract limit.

So it would have to be more pieces that to me makes it unrealistic... not that what we have is what will happen.

So if it was Connolly, it should look like this:

Connolly
Kadri
Frattin - first raise for taking Connolly (Helps I am really not a fan of Colbourne)
Finn
3rd? 4th? - second add for taking Connolly

Luongo
contract dump/AHL farmhand
It sounds strange but Connollys injury pnoneness could come in handy for slowly bringing in Kadri/Schroeder.

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12-09-2012, 05:08 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
It sounds strange but Connollys injury pnoneness could come in handy for slowly bringing in Kadri/Schroeder.
Even though Connolly is older and injury prone, he does have a good offensive creativity to him and could finally give the 2nd unit PP a centre who can competitently man that unit.

Connolly Kadri conditional 1st 2013 based on Leafs playoffs or not. Defers to next year if no playoffs. And 2nd round pick in 2014

For

Roberto and a choice of Weise, Raymond or a farm hand like Sweatt, or any prospect of similar minimal or mediocre value.

It'll give Vancouver a chance for a cup push with some veteran depth and young guys ready to fill in for injury. Also between the cap hits and possible games missed between Connolly and Kesler. LTIR has been handy for Vancouver the last few seasons.

Toronto sends 2 high value pieces along with a contract with a high cap hit and a 2nd.
Kadri is a Connolly replacement for depth reasons, the picks are compensation for the contract dump and this really allows Toronto to roll a very similar offence as last year in front of Luongo.

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Old
12-09-2012, 07:55 AM
  #337
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When did I agree? If I did I misunderstood. Leaf fans have already made an agreement with me earlier close to this. No reason to take less now.

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker

Not sure why you wouldn't agree to this this, value is very close, and who knows you might get another Finn by keeping that 2nd.




Awesome. Apparently a trade back caveat warrants roughly the same return people have been talking about for weeks...



Anyways, just as a general theory, I don't think more than two roster-ready forwards come back in the deal. Colborne would need some extra time, but he is also a mature prospect. There's got to be room for these guys.



This is why players like Percy, Finn and even Biggs make sense (from a VAN stand point of course) because they are further away from needing spots right now. While Kadri and Bozak will comprise the NHL ready part of the deal. It just depends on what on top of those two makes it "fair" for both sides. My guess is that it's Percy and a protected 1st. Or the 1st being replaced with Finn/Biggs.

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12-09-2012, 08:20 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Connolly is 31 and injury prone. Bozak is 26 and a piece we can resign, not a guy in decline. I'm sorry but value is not close and if you believe so then fair enough. I'm not pushing for Kulemin, so you don't need to push for Connolly. In regards to salary why do you need to send more? With this trade you will be adding a net of 3.8 million and if cap remains at 70 million this year, as it appears to be going to, Toronto will have a total of 67 million. I just don't see the problem, especially since Connolly and many other guys like Lombardi will be coming off books next year when cap does crunch. I'm glad we see value in my deal and agree. Another Leaf fan on board, this is starting to appear to be concensus deal finally!

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker
I am still OK with this. Now Saurus can come and tell me how nuts i am. The only piece that really hurts is Kadri. We have plenty of defensive prospects....Connolly replaces Bozak and Colborne doesn't seem that great to me.


Last edited by Liferleafer: 12-09-2012 at 09:04 AM.
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12-09-2012, 12:30 PM
  #339
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I am still OK with this. Now Saurus can come and tell me how nuts i am. The only piece that really hurts is Kadri. We have plenty of defensive prospects....Connolly replaces Bozak and Colborne doesn't seem that great to me.
Now lets see how close we are when/if the deal does go down

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12-09-2012, 12:42 PM
  #340
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It sounds strange but Connollys injury pnoneness could come in handy for slowly bringing in Kadri/Schroeder.
I understand this POV, but I am of the mind you can't deal thinking he will get hurt, therfore I can do this. I just mean you can't view his being injury prone as a good thing.

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12-09-2012, 12:43 PM
  #341
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Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker
Leafs fan here, I would do this.

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12-09-2012, 12:50 PM
  #342
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Now lets see how close we are when/if the deal does go down
To be honest, i think IF a deal happens, it will be Kadri,Bozak and another piece that isn't a 1st. Raymond and a 4th piece may be added as well.

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12-09-2012, 01:04 PM
  #343
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To be honest, i think IF a deal happens, it will be Kadri,Bozak and another piece that isn't a 1st. Raymond and a 4th piece may be added as well.
I guess we will wait and see.

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12-09-2012, 01:24 PM
  #344
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To be honest, i think IF a deal happens, it will be Kadri,Bozak and another piece that isn't a 1st. Raymond and a 4th piece may be added as well.
What kind of piece? It just leaves a lot to the imagination from Rielly to a 7th...

The only piece I feel confident that is coming back is Bozak. I don't really want him as I want to give Schreoder a chance, but seems Gillis was high on him in the past, and that seems to be an MO of his.

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12-09-2012, 01:30 PM
  #345
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Connolly is 31 and injury prone. Bozak is 26 and a piece we can resign, not a guy in decline. I'm sorry but value is not close and if you believe so then fair enough. I'm not pushing for Kulemin, so you don't need to push for Connolly. In regards to salary why do you need to send more? With this trade you will be adding a net of 3.8 million and if cap remains at 70 million this year, as it appears to be going to, Toronto will have a total of 67 million. I just don't see the problem, especially since Connolly and many other guys like Lombardi will be coming off books next year when cap does crunch. I'm glad we see value in my deal and agree. Another Leaf fan on board, this is starting to appear to be concensus deal finally!

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker
Doubt you would see us decimating our entire center depth for the goalie. We would only have Grabovski for our top six, and for our center prospect, it would be greg mckegg.

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12-09-2012, 02:02 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
What kind of piece? It just leaves a lot to the imagination from Rielly to a 7th...

The only piece I feel confident that is coming back is Bozak. I don't really want him as I want to give Schreoder a chance, but seems Gillis was high on him in the past, and that seems to be an MO of his.
The extra piece would be less valuable than a 1st. Maybe a 2nd or B prospect. Just my opinion, i'd be good with numbers' offer.

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12-09-2012, 02:07 PM
  #347
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Doubt you would see us decimating our entire center depth for the goalie. We would only have Grabovski for our top six, and for our center prospect, it would be greg mckegg.
That was what I wondered when Bozak and Kadri were being packaged together. Of course, there is the alternatives but not many Leaf fans seem keen on tossing them into packages.

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12-09-2012, 02:10 PM
  #348
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That was what I wondered when Bozak and Kadri were being packaged together. Of course, there is the alternatives but not many Leaf fans seem keen on tossing them into packages.
For me, i see Kadri as a winger. Connolly replaces Bozak for this season and freeagency does next.

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12-09-2012, 02:21 PM
  #349
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Doubt you would see us decimating our entire center depth for the goalie. We would only have Grabovski for our top six, and for our center prospect, it would be greg mckegg.
Fair enough, but already have 5+ regular Leaf fans in this read agree. Apparently can't please everyone. But hey I did suggested swapping Kulemin or Frattin for a piece to protect your center depth, but everyone does not want to do that.

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12-09-2012, 02:22 PM
  #350
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Doubt you would see us decimating our entire center depth for the goalie. We would only have Grabovski for our top six, and for our center prospect, it would be greg mckegg.
I agree, the Leafs cannot move that much center depth. The Leafs are not sending much salary back either; which is a pipedream at best.

The deal needs roughly an equal amount of salary going both ways (especially offsetting the pain of a decade long contract). The Leafs could add a future in Blacker with a mid level pick (3rd?). Add Kulemin, a player Canuck fans have an eye on in many proposals. Bozak; a target that serms to be one of the only true known pieces in discussion; then have to add Komisarek.

The Leafs then take Luongo and Raymond; to make the cap situation more even. It also rids Vancouver of the two players brought up in 95% of their proposals on here.

That's about as take it or leave it; as we can get. A pure futures package; especiaaly focussed around one position.... not possible on our end.

Bozak
Komisarek
Kulemin
Blacker
3rd

for

Luongo
Raymond



Alternate:

Bozak
Kulemin
Blacker
Franson (throw in)

for

Luongo
1st

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