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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

How will Fehr explain a missed season (if that happens)?

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:32 PM
  #151
Oshie97
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
What concessions have the Players made? What in the players offers is better for the owners than the NFL and NBA deals? These should be the same question. The NFL and NBA compete directly against the NHL for the fans dollars. Having a much worse CBA puts the NHL is a big disadvantage in attracting the dollars from fans and this puts them a big disadvantage when it comes to attracting owners and investors. The reason there is so many teams mismanaged is because the only reason to buy an NHL franchise is because you love the sport.
So true, add to it that the NHL doesn't generate the revenue of the other sports and you see that the players need a serious reality check.

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12-08-2012, 09:37 PM
  #152
ScottyBowman
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Originally Posted by Oshie97 View Post
So true, add to it that the NHL doesn't generate the revenue of the other sports and you see that the players need a serious reality check.
You're comparing apples to oranges.

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12-08-2012, 09:37 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Oshie97 View Post
So true, add to it that the NHL doesn't generate the revenue of the other sports and you see that the players need a serious reality check.
Right. In fact, I've often argued that, presuming other league's have some similar fixed operating costs (what does it cost to have an arena, to advertise, to pay a front office, to hire staff, to pay for flights, hotel rooms, equipment, etc.), it makes sense that the poorest league should pay its players the smallest % of revenue. Not the largest.

Now, it may be that hockey's fixed costs are much smaller than all of these other games, but I see no evidence suggesting that. NBA plays the same number of games in many of the exact same arenas. So until something suggests differently, I would presume that offering the highest % of revenue in NA pro sports was, in fact, doubly generous given that NHL owners have a much smaller pot to pay all the rest of those fixed expenses out of.

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12-08-2012, 09:45 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
You're comparing apples to oranges.
I understand the data is limited here (thanks **** sports journalists who never took an econ class), but put it this way: I'd rather compare apples to oranges and make a flawed decision that way than compare apples to nothing and make my decision blindly. If you can't compare the NHL to the NBA in terms of costs and revenue, or if you don't believe the Forbes figures, I don't know what data you have left to evaluate what a reasonable outcome even is.

@Killion: It wasn't the end of the sentence, but I appreciate you wanting to take out loaded language. Rewritten.


Last edited by haseoke39: 12-08-2012 at 10:41 PM. Reason: end of sentence. point made. rest not req'd.
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12-08-2012, 10:06 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
You're comparing apples to oranges.
All are sports entertainment competing for fan support, if your competitors have a lower cost and higher revenue, then you need to make some changes. Why should NHL players make more of a % of revenue then the other three major sports? The NHL needs a deal thats close to what the NBA just signed, if they don't get it then fine the players can play over in europe for a fraction of what they would make here till they realize how good they have it.

The NHL just made a push to get a deal done to keep their sponsors happy, thats out the window, so now I think we will see the offers from the NHL get worse and worse. Sucks, no season more than likely but maybe its the wake up call both sides need to get a deal done by next season.


Last edited by Oshie97: 12-08-2012 at 10:12 PM.
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12-08-2012, 10:24 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I love how Fehr gets all this blame when he has conceded on so many big issues. Was Fehr around last time when Gary killed an entire season? No but yet it's all Fehr. His side has agreed to throw away 290 million worth of current, signed, guaranteed contracts(yet another bailout for the owners), he's agreed to decrease the players share by 7% going forward, he's agreed to put a limit on the terms of contracts, and he's agreed to have a longer CBA than usual. Yet his side is causing this? He's getting nothing in return, the only thing the owners are ''giving up'' is keeping everything else the same.

Come on.
All contracts are going to be subject to the rules of the new CBA. All of the players and their agents knew this when the deals were signed.

Please stop with the baloney.

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12-08-2012, 10:43 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I love how Fehr gets all this blame when he has conceded on so many big issues. Was Fehr around last time when Gary killed an entire season? No but yet it's all Fehr. His side has agreed to throw away 290 million worth of current, signed, guaranteed contracts(yet another bailout for the owners), he's agreed to decrease the players share by 7% going forward, he's agreed to put a limit on the terms of contracts, and he's agreed to have a longer CBA than usual. Yet his side is causing this? He's getting nothing in return, the only thing the owners are ''giving up'' is keeping everything else the same.

Come on.
Ummm... hes not giving up 7% because he adds make whole payments and gauranteed salary floor limits, hes fighting putting terms on contracts length and the length of the cba which is why talks stopped in the last meetings. He wants 50/50 plus make whole for only 5 yrs at which time the make whole payments would stop, they would never really get to 50/50 during the contract. He offers the same thing over and over, just changes the fine print to make it look different.

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12-08-2012, 11:19 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Oshie97 View Post
Ummm... hes not giving up 7% because he adds make whole payments and gauranteed salary floor limits, hes fighting putting terms on contracts length and the length of the cba which is why talks stopped in the last meetings. He wants 50/50 plus make whole for only 5 yrs at which time the make whole payments would stop, they would never really get to 50/50 during the contract. He offers the same thing over and over, just changes the fine print to make it look different.
This is a great summary. The players get more than 50%, then the CBA expires and the NHL goes through this mess all over again.

The NHL's next offer should trim some of the make whole offer IMO. Then the players will finally get the idea that stalling will not get them a better deal.

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12-09-2012, 12:40 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
The NHL's next offer should trim some of the make whole offer IMO. Then the players will finally get the idea that stalling will not get them a better deal.
The issue with that is it can backfire just as easily as the PA getting oh so close to a deal, and Fehr saying "hold out, we can get more".

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12-09-2012, 02:52 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Otb, if you think the only reason individuals or investment groups by an NHL franchise is because they love the sport of hockey, well, I hate to be the one to break this to you but nothing could be farther from the truth. You do get the odd owner, like Pegula in Buffalo, Gagliardi in Dallas and a few others who do indeed love the game but by & large these are simply businessmen who buy franchises in order to curry favours amongst the 30 member club; looking for tax breaks & or municipal largesse; the team itself simply the emotional quotient or "hook", a means to an end.

Franchises bought to be sold at a later date. Their all basically real estate speculators & or developers; some with additional or even mainstream interests in broadcasting, new media, concessions, arena management, hotel & hospitality moguls, sports & entertainment event marketing & bookings etc. Hockey is still the cheapest buy-in of the 4 major sports, franchise values however on the up & significantly since the 04/05 Lockout, and that in and of itself is the single most important element to all of these owners. Franchise values plummet, and they will if this goes on much longer, in fact may have already retarded or stunted them somewhat, Gary Bettmans out of a job.

The true "love of the game" is the purview of the players themselves. They, not the NHL, not the owners, they own the game. Anyones who's ever played it owns a piece of the game. Anyones who's ever watched it & fallen in love with its athleticism, artistry & symmetry,
they own the game. These guys, the league itself, just a business. Pure, cold, calculating. No room for sentimentality, benevolence, munificence. They play for keeps, take no prisoners. Thats just the way of the world, the way it is.
The fans own the game, not the players.

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Old
12-09-2012, 03:32 AM
  #161
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Fehr doesn't have to explain anything.
If there's one thing he keeps stressing it's that the mempership makes the decisions. He won't be the one to blame for anything that results out of these negotiations.

Compared to Bettman, who actually has a say in everything league-related, Fehr is basically a legal representative, who just voices the opinion of his clients. He makes pretty darn sure he's as far from the shooting lane as possible.

Just because he advises the players what he thinks is best for them, doesn't make him the one to decide what to fight for. Sure, he is a huge influence and their leader. But he holds the players accountable for every step the PA takes by giving them every opportunity in the world to participate in the negotiations and make their voices heard.

That's pretty smart, if you ask me. He can be the road block without being guilty of road blocking personally.

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12-09-2012, 04:30 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
Fehr doesn't have to explain anything.
If there's one thing he keeps stressing it's that the mempership makes the decisions. He won't be the one to blame for anything that results out of these negotiations.

Compared to Bettman, who actually has a say in everything league-related, Fehr is basically a legal representative, who just voices the opinion of his clients. He makes pretty darn sure he's as far from the shooting lane as possible.

Just because he advises the players what he thinks is best for them, doesn't make him the one to decide what to fight for. Sure, he is a huge influence and their leader. But he holds the players accountable for every step the PA takes by giving them every opportunity in the world to participate in the negotiations and make their voices heard.

That's pretty smart, if you ask me. He can be the road block without being guilty of road blocking personally.
I agree with most of this, I mean the question itself is illogical, who does he have to explain himself to now? The players are the ones who decide when they've had enough, and if they don't want to deal and still want money there's always Europe. I think both owners and players have some sympathy towards the fans but the bottom line is both are looking after their wallets.

So then the question becomes, how are the players going to explain this? I don't know, I think everyone involved is already well aware that they may have irreparably damaged the NHL and that blood is on the hands of both parties, an equal share of blame if you ask me.

Personally I really don't care anymore what happens, and the blame game is lame and old, and the fact that both parties are still playing the propaganda war speaks volumes that there are problems far larger than money that exist in the NHL, the fact as well that people still believe in the propaganda pretty much gives the NHL and NHLPA carte blanche to continue to play apathetic. If we the fans truly want to affect the lockout then we need to show significant levels of apathy, don't visit official websites, keep your website visits to independent sites like this one.

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12-09-2012, 08:05 AM
  #163
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he wont have to explain anything because the players will capitulate within the next 3 weeks and we'll have our 50'ish game season .

get ''us'' the best deal possible without losing the season is what the fellas want .

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12-09-2012, 08:29 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
Fehr doesn't have to explain anything.
If there's one thing he keeps stressing it's that the mempership makes the decisions. He won't be the one to blame for anything that results out of these negotiations.

Compared to Bettman, who actually has a say in everything league-related, Fehr is basically a legal representative, who just voices the opinion of his clients. He makes pretty darn sure he's as far from the shooting lane as possible.

Just because he advises the players what he thinks is best for them, doesn't make him the one to decide what to fight for. Sure, he is a huge influence and their leader. But he holds the players accountable for every step the PA takes by giving them every opportunity in the world to participate in the negotiations and make their voices heard.

That's pretty smart, if you ask me. He can be the road block without being guilty of road blocking personally.
Well said...there is a no lose for Fehr...

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12-09-2012, 09:02 AM
  #165
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1) Despite being much better off at the end of the previous CBA than at the start, the league locked out the players --> cancelled season is on the NHL

2) At this point, any outcome between the NHLPA's demands and the NHL's "die on a hill" position leaves the league better off and the players worse off vis a vis the previous CBA --> cancelled season is on the league.

Continuously blaming Fehr is at best a red herring..

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12-09-2012, 10:20 AM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLlwain View Post
Fehr doesn't have to explain anything.
If there's one thing he keeps stressing it's that the mempership makes the decisions. He won't be the one to blame for anything that results out of these negotiations.

Compared to Bettman, who actually has a say in everything league-related, Fehr is basically a legal representative, who just voices the opinion of his clients. He makes pretty darn sure he's as far from the shooting lane as possible.

Just because he advises the players what he thinks is best for them, doesn't make him the one to decide what to fight for. Sure, he is a huge influence and their leader. But he holds the players accountable for every step the PA takes by giving them every opportunity in the world to participate in the negotiations and make their voices heard.

That's pretty smart, if you ask me. He can be the road block without being guilty of road blocking personally.
He is smart..... but I don't think the players are voting on things that come up.... they are just looking at Fehr and doing what he suggests.

He won't be blamed, and he doesn't care..... His agenda is going to the courts.

What is the process for removing Fehr, what is the process for voting? I think it's pretty murky and set up so Fehr can do a whole lot without a majority of players agreeing.......
What are the checks and balances? I have gotten the impression Fehr has free rein to do anything...

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12-09-2012, 10:34 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by predfan98 View Post
He is smart..... but I don't think the players are voting on things that come up.... they are just looking at Fehr and doing what he suggests.

He won't be blamed, and he doesn't care..... His agenda is going to the courts.

What is the process for removing Fehr, what is the process for voting? I think it's pretty murky and set up so Fehr can do a whole lot without a majority of players agreeing.......
What are the checks and balances? I have gotten the impression Fehr has free rein to do anything...
That basically sounds like Bettman and Jacobs.

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12-09-2012, 11:08 AM
  #168
KINGS17
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Originally Posted by ScottyBowman View Post
That basically sounds like Bettman and Jacobs.
This argument doesn't hold much water now that the moderate owners from Toronto and Pittsburgh walked away from the table AFTER giving the players more money in the NHL's make whole proposal, and having the players ask for additional concessions from the owner's offer.

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12-09-2012, 11:54 AM
  #169
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Fehr loves sticking it to the owners and the adoration he receives due to it (see his speech to the auto-workers) just like Patton loved war.

He is in his glory.

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12-09-2012, 12:14 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
This argument doesn't hold much water now that the moderate owners from Toronto and Pittsburgh walked away from the table AFTER giving the players more money in the NHL's make whole proposal, and having the players ask for additional concessions from the owner's offer.

The Fehr bashers on this board don't make much sense, either, when you consider how close the PA and NHL are... and when you consider that it has been the PA that has done ALL the serious giving to get us to that point.

It is an afront to reality and to thinking people everywhere that people continue to make Fehr out to be some obstructionist.

The owners could sign the PA's deal right now... This is a deal that goes farther than most most the Pro-owner posters would have even wished for back in September.

And yet they are still criticizing Fehr as some sort of evil figure trying to tear down the league.

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12-09-2012, 12:42 PM
  #171
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As far as we know, the so-called money issues are pretty much settled (give or take few changes).

The argument is about contract issues which have only indirect effects on players, in the end players will get the 50% which has been agreed upon.

So tell me this; how would the PA get back the money they will miss (1.89B) if the season is cancelled? It would mean they would need a deal that gets them 190M MORE than current NHL proposal EVERY season for the next 10 years (or even more if the next CBA is shorter than 10 years) to justify sitting out for the season.

What are the chances of owners caving to that extent that would make up for the money lost for the players?

When will the players see the light? How many players are actually willing to lose the season given that 70% of the contracts are up in 3 years?

What are the players fighting for? Long-term contracts given only to star players?

What does your average 3rd-4th line forward or 3rd pairing d-man gain from missing the season?

If the whole season is missed, who's the one to stand up and tell PA it wasn't worth it?
Here's how I believe he will explain it, if he even needs to do any explaining:

When I was asked to get involved by the NHLPA representatives, I was given a set of marching orders asking me to make the best deal for the long term. They saw the 17 years of great benefit to the baseball players association and asked, no demanded I bring the same type of results.

Had I been asked to deliver the best short term results, I would have taken a different approach. I took my orders from my employers.

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