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Old
12-08-2012, 04:13 PM
  #251
bleedblue1223
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Chorney was number 2 in those rankings, 'nough said.

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12-08-2012, 04:33 PM
  #252
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Ahhahahahah chorney

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12-08-2012, 05:14 PM
  #253
Pekka Rinne
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Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
Are you kidding me? He's 22 years old and has been a top-pairing defenseman for a playoff team for 2 seasons now.

Eberle has had one season over 50 points on a bottom-feeder team. In WHAT world does Eberle have more value?

... Oh, that's right. HFBoards world.
Nice try at diminishing his value by saying "one season over 50 points", when that season just happened to be PPG and top 15 scorer in the league.

His first season he scored 43 in 69, a PPG of .62, and for 51 over 82. Oh and he is also 22 years old and how does that he was on a bottom feeder have anything to do with anything? If anything it shows how he does more with less.

And I know Carlson is something special, I even said that "his value>=Eberle's", but that his a horrible way at attempting to belittle Eberle's accomplishments.

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Old
12-08-2012, 07:00 PM
  #254
bluesfan94
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Copper and Blue is a fan site and not what i was reffering to, also it includes all players under the age of 25 (so it includes NHLers). Basically it's an entirely different ranking altogether, so nice try. But since you brought it up you would probably be interested in how they currently rank him: http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/8/11...final-rankings

He's ranked 5th on the team behind only Hall, Nuge, Yakupov, Eberle. He's ahead of Schultz (although that will change) and Gagner. Two writers actually ranked him in the top 5. One had him at 3 and another at 4. 6th is his very worst ranking by any writer. Petry's writeup is here:

http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/8/6/...-25-under-25-5

So refrencing the Copper and Blue really isn't going to help your argument as A. They are either as high on him as i am or even higher and B. It's not even the same ****ing thing as i brought up.

HFboards means nothing what a useless thing to bring up. Also when i talked about his prospect ranking you have to realize he was drafted in 06. We all know as soon as Hall was drafted he was number 1 and Eberle 2. However Hall was drafted a full 4 years after Petry. It was during this time that Petry and Eberle were constantly battling it out for the teams top prospect nomination.

Hockey's future, finally a good source. He actually was ranked 1 and 2 at various times by Hockey's future. This is in fact what i was reffering too. Also the Pipeline show in Edmonton consistently refrenced him as one of the teams top prospects, if not the top prospect. Also in Edmonton we have these things called "newspapers" and often times in theses "newspapers" they would have writeups and rankings of various prospects. Believe it or not this is how most people in Edmonton used to follow prospect development, and many of them did in fact rank Petry very high. Not to mention the fact that the organization has been very high on him for years.

2009 is your earliest source you bring up, yet that's 3 years after he was drafted. Perhaps you out to look a little deeper before condeming my comments. When you ignore 3 years, refrence comparisons of a different type (that C&B link is an entirely different comparison to refrence), and then hilariously try and use an HF poll to prove me wrong it's time to think things out a little deeper i would suggest. Serioulsy he was ranked behind a 1st overall, CHL player of the year, and a WC all star who was 19 years old, as well as an international star who all at that time where considered top young talents in your HFboards source. Clearly he must be awful.

But i saved the best for last. Here this is for you:

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ects_fall2008/

Guess who's number 1?

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ts_spring2008/

Guess what? Number 1 again.

So yeah i wasn't full of it, he was a top prospect for us. Believe it or not he went down the rankings when we drafted high multiple years in a row. Getting guys like Hall (1st overall), Eberle (CHL player of the year and NHL All Star), Paajarvi (top ranked European forward from his draft year), Gagner (high pick with an excellent 18 year old season) pushed him down the list but it never made him a worse player. So next time you call BS on me bring facts and common sense to the table, not to mention appropriate sources.
I thought we would use noncurrent rankings seeing as he isn't a prospect anymore. But fine. You can use that ranking as proof of his prospect rankings. I apologize, too, for not using old rankings that weren't right before he made the jump into the NHL, as those don't accurately show how he was thought of when he joined the NHL. For example, the Blues top prospects have included Mike Glumac, Marek Schwarz, Hannu Toivenen, and Peter Sejna. Not exactly world beaters. Usually they were downgraded before joining the NHL. Admittedly, he was still at 4th on the last ranking he was on. I couldn't find the rankings from 2008, or earlier, when I googled them. Either way, it shows a rather consistent drop in the rankings, at least from the top spot. He was consistently in the top 5. Hall and Gagner were both only in the rankings at most twice, as they immediately jumped into the NHL and thus graduated. Eberle started behind Petry. As did Omark and Peckham, who had jumped him in fall of 2009. No matter, the rankings aren't infallible, but from what I can tell, after 2008, he wasn't considered a top 2 prospect in Edmonton.

Either way, his consideration as one of the better prospects for Edmonton doesn't mean much to me when compared to Shattenkirk. He has never performed on the offensive level of Shattenkirk, who was considered the premier prospect for the Avalanche for all of 2009 and 2010. I don't know how we got into this pissing match, but I people predicting Petry would be producing at an equal or greater level than Shattenkirk did is silly.

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Old
12-09-2012, 06:36 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
I thought we would use noncurrent rankings seeing as he isn't a prospect anymore. But fine. You can use that ranking as proof of his prospect rankings. I apologize, too, for not using old rankings that weren't right before he made the jump into the NHL, as those don't accurately show how he was thought of when he joined the NHL. For example, the Blues top prospects have included Mike Glumac, Marek Schwarz, Hannu Toivenen, and Peter Sejna. Not exactly world beaters. Usually they were downgraded before joining the NHL. Admittedly, he was still at 4th on the last ranking he was on. I couldn't find the rankings from 2008, or earlier, when I googled them. Either way, it shows a rather consistent drop in the rankings, at least from the top spot. He was consistently in the top 5. Hall and Gagner were both only in the rankings at most twice, as they immediately jumped into the NHL and thus graduated. Eberle started behind Petry. As did Omark and Peckham, who had jumped him in fall of 2009. No matter, the rankings aren't infallible, but from what I can tell, after 2008, he wasn't considered a top 2 prospect in Edmonton.

Either way, his consideration as one of the better prospects for Edmonton doesn't mean much to me when compared to Shattenkirk. He has never performed on the offensive level of Shattenkirk, who was considered the premier prospect for the Avalanche for all of 2009 and 2010. I don't know how we got into this pissing match, but I people predicting Petry would be producing at an equal or greater level than Shattenkirk did is silly.
I am not so sure that you can say that Petry has never performed on the level of Shattenkirk offensively.

Petry was a year older but as freshmen Petry had 24 points in 42 games and Shattenkirk had 21 pts in 40 games. Shattenkirk's sophmore year was 28 points in 43 games.

In their junior years Shattenkirk had 29 points in 38 games as did Petry.

Petry had better numbers in the AHL but of course Shattenkirk was only in the AHl for a cup of coffe.

Shattenkirk has clearly had the better start in the NHL offensively and that counts for a lot. However if you look at last year the difference is less than it seems.

The Oilers have only one dman on the pp and for the first half of the year that was either Potter or Whitney. Shattenkirk had more than 3 times the PP time as Petry last year and as a result had 18 points to Petry's 6 on the pp. At even strength their numbers were actually quite similar. Moreover, what is not being considered is that Petry really took off is the last 40 games. He had about 20 of his 25 points after Jan 1. His physical game also took off during that period. He was really punishing guys on a regular basis, something that I have not seen as much of from Shattenkirk.

With J. Schultz on the Oilers and the way they run their pp it is likley that Petry will not get prime time with the #1 unit. So this will mean that he likley never matches Shattenkirk's numbers. But pp aside this is a lot closer than one might seem.

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12-09-2012, 01:11 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
I thought we would use noncurrent rankings seeing as he isn't a prospect anymore. But fine. You can use that ranking as proof of his prospect rankings. I apologize, too, for not using old rankings that weren't right before he made the jump into the NHL, as those don't accurately show how he was thought of when he joined the NHL. For example, the Blues top prospects have included Mike Glumac, Marek Schwarz, Hannu Toivenen, and Peter Sejna. Not exactly world beaters. Usually they were downgraded before joining the NHL. Admittedly, he was still at 4th on the last ranking he was on. I couldn't find the rankings from 2008, or earlier, when I googled them. Either way, it shows a rather consistent drop in the rankings, at least from the top spot. He was consistently in the top 5. Hall and Gagner were both only in the rankings at most twice, as they immediately jumped into the NHL and thus graduated. Eberle started behind Petry. As did Omark and Peckham, who had jumped him in fall of 2009. No matter, the rankings aren't infallible, but from what I can tell, after 2008, he wasn't considered a top 2 prospect in Edmonton.

Either way, his consideration as one of the better prospects for Edmonton doesn't mean much to me when compared to Shattenkirk. He has never performed on the offensive level of Shattenkirk, who was considered the premier prospect for the Avalanche for all of 2009 and 2010. I don't know how we got into this pissing match, but I people predicting Petry would be producing at an equal or greater level than Shattenkirk did is silly.
What do you mean "isn't a prospect anymore"? I was literally talking about when he was a prospect.

The Oilers organization was always very very high on him. As was the pipeline show and the various Edmonton papers. Petry was always highly thought of. He fell in the rankings due to the enormous amount of top 10 selections added to the comparison. Hockey's Future was the only reasonable source you brought up, yet it certainly isn't the only source i was judging my comments by. Believe me in Edmonton there are alot of sources for Hockey info, even on prospects. It's really foolish to compare Petry to a buch of busts, he's clearly been excellent in the NHL.

What does Shattenkirk have to do with what i said?

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Old
12-09-2012, 09:46 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Jeff Petry is going to make some people look really dumb over the next few seasons. Russell over Petry as a PMD, that's just silly. It's amazing how a guy can be so highly touted in College and be so good as a pro yet be so overlooked. Petry was voted in college the most likely to succeed in the NHL, he was Edmonton's top or 2nd best prospect (after Eberle) for years. He was very very good last year.
Russell
0.951 PPG final three seasons of WHL
0.833 PPG WJC
0.571 PPG AHL
0.636 PPG WC
0.266 PPG NHL

Petry
0.568 PPG final three season of CCHA
0.549 PPG AHL
0.625 PPG WC
0.278 PPG NHL

Based on those stats alone, Petry and Russell's ability to move the puck is fairly comparable. Then factor in that Russell has a season with these other player's, executing the system. He would have a leg up of Petry if all other things were equal. So its pretty easy to see how Petry would slot in behind Russell as a PMD option.

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12-10-2012, 06:48 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Russell
0.951 PPG final three seasons of WHL
0.833 PPG WJC
0.571 PPG AHL
0.636 PPG WC
0.266 PPG NHL

Petry
0.568 PPG final three season of CCHA
0.549 PPG AHL
0.625 PPG WC
0.278 PPG NHL

Based on those stats alone, Petry and Russell's ability to move the puck is fairly comparable. Then factor in that Russell has a season with these other player's, executing the system. He would have a leg up of Petry if all other things were equal. So its pretty easy to see how Petry would slot in behind Russell as a PMD option.
At best you have made a statistical case that in terms of generating points they would be equal. The remainder of Petry's game gives him a clear advantage, as does the fact that he is way bigger than Russel and showed last year that he has learned to use his size.

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12-10-2012, 10:10 AM
  #259
bluemandan
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
At best you have made a statistical case that in terms of generating points they would be equal. The remainder of Petry's game gives him a clear advantage, as does the fact that he is way bigger than Russel and showed last year that he has learned to use his size.
How does any of that apply to Petry being a better option to quaterback the second power play unit?

If I were coaching the Blues, I go with the equally as talented offensive player who knows the system and has established chemistry with his teammates.

I'm not arguing that Russell is the better overall defenseman by any means. I just don't know how I can say it any clearer: Petry would not get Shattenkirk's old minutes.


Last edited by bluemandan: 12-10-2012 at 10:28 AM.
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12-11-2012, 04:05 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
At best you have made a statistical case that in terms of generating points they would be equal. The remainder of Petry's game gives him a clear advantage, as does the fact that he is way bigger than Russel and showed last year that he has learned to use his size.
So now we've established that he's equal offensively to Russell, who was far behind Shattenkirk in terms of his offensive output. Can we stop the bologna that Petry will put up equivalent numbers to Shattenkirk?

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12-12-2012, 12:59 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Russell
0.951 PPG final three seasons of WHL
0.833 PPG WJC
0.571 PPG AHL
0.636 PPG WC
0.266 PPG NHL

Petry
0.568 PPG final three season of CCHA
0.549 PPG AHL
0.625 PPG WC
0.278 PPG NHL

Based on those stats alone, Petry and Russell's ability to move the puck is fairly comparable. Then factor in that Russell has a season with these other player's, executing the system. He would have a leg up of Petry if all other things were equal. So its pretty easy to see how Petry would slot in behind Russell as a PMD option.
Moving the puck against the other teams top players is a lot different than doing it on the 3rd pairing. Petry can skate and pass like Russel but has the size and physicality you can't teach. Petry is a far far better two way player. He can help a PK too you know.

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12-12-2012, 01:13 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Moving the puck against the other teams top players is a lot different than doing it on the 3rd pairing. Petry can skate and pass like Russel but has the size and physicality you can't teach. Petry is a far far better two way player. He can help a PK too you know.
It's not a Petry vs. Russell thing. Russell is Hitchcock's boy, and his partnership with Polak was our best against LA, mainly because Petro was hurt and his partners were more than useless. Russell and Polak was our only pairing to do anything.

I think it is very likely that Russell-Polak would be our 2nd pairing over Jackman-Petry. At a minimum they are equals. When it is Jackman-Shattenkirk, they are clearly our 2nd pairing when everyone is at their best.

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12-12-2012, 01:42 AM
  #263
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Never make trade proposals between St Louis and Edmonton. It always ends badly.

Bring up the value of Pietrangelo and see what happens lol....

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12-12-2012, 01:54 AM
  #264
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Never make trade proposals between St Louis and Edmonton. It always ends badly.

Bring up the value of Pietrangelo and see what happens lol....
Aren't you the guy who said Eberle is worth Pietrangelo? Could be wrong on that though.

Do you honestly think a reasonable proposal could be made to get Pietrangelo? To get Pietrangelo, we would need a viable replacement as our defensive corps after Pietrangelo takes a significant dropoff, and we would also need a significant enough reason to make the trade in the first place. Those criteria means there really isn't a reasonable or realistic scenario out there.

We just have 2 needs that really aren't that big of needs. Either a LH defenseman that can play 20+ minutes a game and they don't need to be a star, or a more offensive type center to push Berglund to the 3rd line. That's it, and both of those needs are not that big because we have Cole and Steen. We just have no reason to make a trade.

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12-12-2012, 02:02 AM
  #265
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Aren't you the guy who said Eberle is worth Pietrangelo? Could be wrong on that though.

Do you honestly think a reasonable proposal could be made to get Pietrangelo? To get Pietrangelo, we would need a viable replacement as our defensive corps after Pietrangelo takes a significant dropoff, and we would also need a significant enough reason to make the trade in the first place. Those criteria means there really isn't a reasonable or realistic scenario out there.

We just have 2 needs that really aren't that big of needs. Either a LH defenseman that can play 20+ minutes a game and they don't need to be a star, or a more offensive type center to push Berglund to the 3rd line. That's it, and both of those needs are not that big because we have Cole and Steen. We just have no reason to make a trade.
Hahaha I knew that would happen.

And no it was RNH in a few years vs Pietrangelo.

Top pairing D are always worth more than wingers as much as I love Eberle.

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12-12-2012, 02:09 AM
  #266
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Hahaha I knew that would happen.

And no it was RNH in a few years vs Pietrangelo.

Top pairing D are always worth more than wingers as much as I love Eberle.
Seriously though, we have no reason to make a trade, especially if people want to target a core player.

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12-12-2012, 10:07 AM
  #267
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Hahaha I knew that would happen.

And no it was RNH in a few years vs Pietrangelo.

Top pairing D are always worth more than wingers as much as I love Eberle.
Good job, Zoltar. It's not like you were fishing for it with your previous post or anything...

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