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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:51 PM
  #351
NickyMaz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Well said. I used to be pro-owner and very anti-PA but I've become more neutral as I know both sides are completely at fault. Between the PA's repackaging of the same proposal over and over, players stupid tweets, Donald Fehr, etc, I can understand why people have grown to hate them. What I don't like is how ridiculously pro-owner HF is. Can someone explain to me why the owners need to have both variance and a 5 year contract term? Why does every single proposal the NHL makes have to be take it or leave it? Is it necessary to walk out of a meeting 10 minutes in because you don't like something? And then these same owners will jack up your ticket prices the minute they see fit.

I'm sorry, I can't support either side in this battle. Both have their evils. What I'm rooting for is as long of a CBA as possible and the NHL back on the ice as soon as possible.
I started off being pro-player and now I'm in the pro-owner camp. My change came about after investigating some of the realities of the economics of the league (i.e 18 franchises losing money or breaking even). I want to see the NHL with 30 strong, profitable teams.

Moreso I grew really sick of the PA's tactics. Don Fehr's stalling, the constant repackaging of the same proposals, continually pushing delinkage, trying to make it look the the players are some poor, downtrodden class. I can totally understand the frustration of Bettman and the owners and why they left after 10 minutes, why entertain the same rejected proposals?

But I understand, both sides bear a lot of blame at this point. This has just been an incredibly frustrating experience for a (relatively) new fan who just wants to see his favorite sport and favorite team. It literally defies all logic and reason that we are not playing hockey yet.

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Old
12-08-2012, 10:06 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by ThatCrazyRangerFan View Post
I'm such a sucker and I'd be...sucked into it. I can't deny my Rangers love.
You can't love them from home for one game to make a point as a fan? One game, is that too much for you to handle?

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Old
12-08-2012, 11:03 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
You can't love them from home for one game to make a point as a fan? One game, is that too much for you to handle?
They don't care...especially if you are a season ticket holder and that empty seat was already paid for.

It's like when people boycott gas for a day, then they fill up the next day and the gas company does their books on a monthly basis and don't care that you bought gas on Thursday instead of Wednesday

League will only care if a large portion of fans stay away for a long period of time...

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:18 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
- Saying you dont care about what happens
- Making jokes based around your rich lifestyle in relation to not carrying on social media
- Getting into it with fans and making fun of how much $$$ they make

None of those help the image of NHLPA
Completely agree with that. Just commenting on some fans who they may think these players should shut up about complaining about the lockout because they already have millions in the bank. However, if these players are posting pics and flaunting their millions, then that is disgraceful.

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:56 AM
  #355
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Meh... x 100,000,000,000,000

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Old
12-09-2012, 05:22 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Jaromir Jagr View Post
Says the person with DZ in his avatar?

Most players have been equally as bad. Any player voicing their twitter rants in an attempt to win over the fans hasn't gone about the process the right way. Posting facts is one thing; opinions another.

DZ has been a violator and problem on Twitter since long before the lockout - hence the reason Torts had big issues with his maturity and still does.

The younger players do tend to post more (since the technology is more in their time frame), and therefore tend to ***** more.

The fact of the matter is this: any instance of an NHL player comparing this to real life is blasphemy. There is no comparison. Not one. Even a floater making NHL's entry-level pay at roughly $500,000 makes more money than the average family does in the U.S. in ten years or more.

There is not ONE comparison for families struggling to pay bills, struggling with foreclosure, struggling with credit, trying to feed their kids and much more then an NHL'er playing a child's game and making God-like money. There is no disputing this.

By the way: the fans are the ones responsible for everyone involved in these labor negotiations salaries. The same fans who struggle daily put forth a small percentage of their money each to enjoy the sport that's a graceful part of life throughout our short time here. When added up, all these small percentages of money from low-income families add up to the massive salaries responsible for the overindulgence by very talented people playing a child's game. Therefore, there is not one suitable explanation for lockouts and labor negotiation issues.
haha, I pointed out that I may be biased toward DZ so no need to point that out again

He had two tweets on this
"Surprise surprise"
It's immature and he could have done without it but honestly, a complaint like that isn't ignorant or deluded and doesn't deliver a sense of self-entitlement. We all know DZ tends to be cocky and a bit immature but I didn't mind that excessively.

The other one was along the lines of "We clearly don't have a partner in negotiations....." That one showed a different kind of immaturity. Perhaps I should say it's the LACK OF maturity to voice an opinion like that.

Those two tweets are not too overbearing imo. He's also been quiet since he started playing in Europe.

Rupper's tweets are more aggressive toward the league and much more self-entitled. There was much more pull on the fans as well as creating tension between the two sides for the sake of it.

If you read my posts earlier on what I thought of how much players made, I'm definitely not ignorant of the fact that they shouldn't complain especially to the general public and fans who are in the middle class.

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Old
12-09-2012, 05:31 AM
  #357
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To the gentleman who made the crack about this coming to a full circle, I agree. Now we're talking about how our own players are being idiots

We're even criticizing Henrik

There are plenty of good opinion on here and plenty of passionate hockey fans who have been around the game for a long time.

The one thing I realized is that the best thing to do right now is to step away from this mess as individuals and fans and not let it take a dump on the passion for the game itself, ya know?

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Old
12-09-2012, 05:36 AM
  #358
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Ya, I unfollowed Prust yesterday and stopped calling him "pruster"
When he "thanked the fans for the support despite the fact that the MGMT didn't want him back ", that really pissed me off

The immaturity between him and DZ definitely shows why they're friends. I love DZ, don't get me wrong. I detest ignorance more than immaturity from a guy not much older than I am. Before I go on elaborating, I'll stop myself so it won't sound like I'm defending him

Dubie was complaining today as well and I said to myself "Oohhhh... don't tempt me Dubie"

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12-09-2012, 06:30 AM
  #359
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The latest from Brooks:

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For this is not a “cooling off” period. Anything but. This, rather, is a scripted gap meant to whip up dissent within the NHLPA rank-and-file and turn up the heat on Don Fehr. This is a stretch in which ownership and management mean to scare the players into a stampede to either overthrow or sidestep their elected leader.

The league has become fixated on Fehr as its target just as it was fixated on Bob Goodenow eight years ago. It was hysterical on Thursday to hear Canceler-in-Chief Gary Bettman bemoan that he hadn’t had time to develop a working relationship with the current union leader when the NHL itself had fomented the treachery within the PA that led directly to the end of Goodenow’s reign and indirectly to the chaos and instability that followed.
Quote:
The owners and Bettman walked away from the deal because they do not want to complete a deal with Fehr. They want him removed from the equation. That has become their primary mission, a priority greater than negotiating a CBA and saving the 2012-13 season.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...Y15mlRCaikgfqO

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Old
12-09-2012, 07:40 AM
  #360
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From that Brooks column

Quote:
Because anyone and everyone who can read can indeed see for themselves: The sides are thread-the-needle close to a deal. The league wants a 10-year CBA with an eight-year out clause. The union wants an eight-year CBA with a six-year out clause. The league wants five-year contract limits with seven-year limits for teams to sign their own players. The union wants eight-year limits to apply across the board.

That’s about it. A couple of split-the-difference items plus the issue of amnesty buyouts that arises because of what will be a steep drop in the cap for 2013-14 and because absent such a transition, there will be nearly 10 teams without the means to create cap space to complete their rosters.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...Y15mlRCaikgfqO

Gary is proposing dropping the cap to $60M in 13-14. He is proposing no amnesty buyouts and salaries above $105,000 NHL counting against the cap.

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Old
12-09-2012, 08:05 AM
  #361
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I too will no longer comment. When we start eating our own and criticizing our own players to the point of no longer following them on Twitter, we have gone to far.

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Old
12-09-2012, 08:24 AM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
From that Brooks column



http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...Y15mlRCaikgfqO

Gary is proposing dropping the cap to $60M in 13-14. He is proposing no amnesty buyouts and salaries above $105,000 NHL counting against the cap.
I have not heard any word of this yet, but will the current contracts count less against the cap? Seeing how the players hrr is going from 57 to 50, so I would think the salary of each player would be reduced for the sake of the salary cap. Even with the higher cap this season, you have to have an amnesty buyout period if you are changing the system in a way that players that have been put in the ahl are now going to count aginst the cap (ie redden). I wonder how the oilers would be if they still had souray in the ahl? There has to be a better transition than just one season at what the cap would have been. Also there must be something else to transition because the bruins are in worse cap situations than the rangers and nothing has come out about Jacobs.

Also, I miss the age of dynasties! I want that back, and I'm sure there are a lot that feel that way.

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Old
12-09-2012, 09:19 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
I have not heard any word of this yet, but will the current contracts count less against the cap? Seeing how the players hrr is going from 57 to 50, so I would think the salary of each player would be reduced for the sake of the salary cap. Even with the higher cap this season, you have to have an amnesty buyout period if you are changing the system in a way that players that have been put in the ahl are now going to count aginst the cap (ie redden). I wonder how the oilers would be if they still had souray in the ahl? There has to be a better transition than just one season at what the cap would have been. Also there must be something else to transition because the bruins are in worse cap situations than the rangers and nothing has come out about Jacobs.

Also, I miss the age of dynasties! I want that back, and I'm sure there are a lot that feel that way.
That hasn't been proposed. The players will just be paying a higher escrow rate.

And dynasties suck. It's fun to think about the great teams of the past, but it gets boring when the same teams win all the time.

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Old
12-09-2012, 09:57 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
That hasn't been proposed. The players will just be paying a higher escrow rate.

And dynasties suck. It's fun to think about the great teams of the past, but it gets boring when the same teams win all the time.
I think im just itching to get hockey back...im sure we all are. I hope this gets settled soon!

I just wanted to throw something out there about fehr, which is true, I have heard it a number of times in the past few months and some (media/fans/etc) just ignore it saying the members of the pa are not on fehr's side. My source is NHL Network Radio. Fehr did NOT want to be the head of the NHLPA, the players pushed to get him as the head of the PA and he braced them how it was going to go and what was going to happen and they still pushed and wanted him to be the head of the NHLPA. Not every player is going to be onboard with the PA's direction, it is impossible to get 700+ players to agree 100% and it is impossible to get an interview of , but the majority want this direction, I see tweets that the PA membership is behind fehr in complete support, but again that is only a select few...nobody really knows.

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Old
12-09-2012, 10:09 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
I too will no longer comment. When we start eating our own and criticizing our own players to the point of no longer following them on Twitter, we have gone to far.
Please, enough of this holier than thou crap. The fans have every right to be upset, at everybody, in this debacle.

The players need to shut up, and stop looking like idiots. That has nothing to do with the fans

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Old
12-09-2012, 10:26 AM
  #366
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And yes, we all have the right to be upset. I HATE people who are "holier than thou" or on the high horse saying "Oh well i don't care BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" Everyones upset and we have rights to be cause the owners, bettman, fehr and the players all suck

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12-09-2012, 10:47 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Please, enough of this holier than thou crap. The fans have every right to be upset, at everybody, in this debacle.

The players need to shut up, and stop looking like idiots. That has nothing to do with the fans
Sure it does...the minute that fan decides to follow them on Twitter.

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Old
12-09-2012, 10:47 AM
  #368
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This is the core of the dynamic and its devolved into a complete pissing contest.

This kind of posturing was tolerable in September, but not now.

Then again, it is working to a degree. Whether true or not, Fehr has been painted as working only for the best interests of the top 10% of players in the league

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12-09-2012, 11:41 AM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Please, enough of this holier than thou crap. The fans have every right to be upset, at everybody, in this debacle.

The players need to shut up, and stop looking like idiots. That has nothing to do with the fans
At least the players practice free speech. They are entitled to say what they want and more power to them. At least they are not stifled as are the owners by the threat of massive fines.

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:15 PM
  #370
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Quote:
NHL + NHLPA have had actual conversations (not just email) this weekend and likely will talk again today, but no meetings are scheduled yet
Quote:
Minor clarification: NHL + NHLPA have had at least one conversation, not necessarily multiple ones, so far this weekend.
https://twitter.com/MolinariPG

Quote:
As @MolinariPG first reported, there has been a conversation between the League and the Players Assoc. today.Talking is good.
https://twitter.com/JSportsnet/statu...21381582938114

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:34 PM
  #371
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Quote:
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
As bleak as it seemed Thursday following emotional press conferences in NYC, both sides are pushing their leaders to get back to the table.
https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...27267110006784

As Brooksie said, they're right there. The differences are way too small to let an entire season get cancelled over. Way too much to lose by cancelling the season.

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:34 PM
  #372
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Quote:
As bleak as it seemed Thursday following emotional press conferences in NYC, both sides are pushing their leaders to get back to the table.
https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...27267110006784

Bleak? Its all part of the script.

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:37 PM
  #373
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10 mill drop in cap is huge too. NBA + NFL didnt have a reduction in cap. Amnesty buy outs also probably a problem too. I doubt the problems are just year lengths, the NHL isn't so stupid to have such a gross over reaction over 3 years essentially. They clearly didn't get other things they wanted.

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:40 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
10 mill drop in cap is huge too. NBA + NFL didnt have a reduction in cap. Amnesty buy outs also probably a problem too. I doubt the problems are just year lengths, the NHL isn't so stupid to have such a gross over reaction over 3 years essentially. They clearly didn't get other things they wanted.
Well as part of the transition, the cap will probably be around $70 million this year. Key would be working in the transition in to year two to give the teams a two year grace period. A lot of contracts are up in the next two years.

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:50 PM
  #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRFAN218 View Post
Well as part of the transition, the cap will probably be around $70 million this year. Key would be working in the transition in to year two to give the teams a two year grace period. A lot of contracts are up in the next two years.
plus it was 64 million for the 11-12 season.. i think that if in the 13-14 season the cap is at $64 million as part of transition, its a lot easier to deal with

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