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Lockout IV: One likes to believe in the freedom of hockey (Moderated: see post #2)

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12-09-2012, 11:10 AM
  #101
ottawah
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Epic rant.
But I don't see a single thing in there that shows you have a better understanding of the business than you say Fehr or the PA has. All I see is a one-sided rant.

Considering how close these two sides are ... And Considering THE FACT that the players have MOVED A LONG LONG WAY to the owners side to get this close, I really don't understand the basis of your rant.
I do obviously think the NHLPA mindtrust and Fehr understand it. But my feeling is they are holding onto this issue not for the good of the players, but for the good of their agenda.

I've been is several unions, and if union leadership were making proposals that benefited the top 2% of members and hurt the rest, they would not have been in a position of leadership for long.

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12-09-2012, 11:16 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
That's my understanding as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fightingbooya View Post
This is 100% correct.....the owners have been getting the shaft on revenue for the last 20 years, I don't blame them for wanted to correct it. The mindset that a rich person shouldn't be able to continue and try to make money just because they are rich is exactly what is wrong with society today. The worst part of it is when players who are making 7 figure salaries are the ones making the claim....look in the damn mirror people. Stop talking to the fans like we're a bunch of idiots, no one is going to feel sorry for you.....get this done, keep it out of the media, and let's get back to the rink.
Thanks for the clarification. Since it is a five year limit on insurance policies, it makes a whole lot more sense that contract limits would be so vitally important to the league.

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12-09-2012, 11:23 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
5 years contract limit will impact the PA by putting more players in UFA status every year. If the the UFA market become a buyer market the going rate will go down by a lot. On the other hand it will incite more average players to resign with current teams balancing the whole deal and pretty much nullifying the effect anyway. Also five years max with players out of entry level at 25 put them at 30. Teams won't be able to buy out more than 3 years out of free agency. That good for everybody who want to see more quality free agent hit the market. The thing is I don't get how any of this crap could be a reason to hold out on a deal for both sides. Ego must be getting in the way that not something I go to war over.
At the sae time, teams will have a lot more room on their rosters that need to be filled...

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12-09-2012, 11:24 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
That's not fair at all considering what the PA has on the table.

There isn't any room for serious cap circumvention in the PA's offer.
...

12m, 12m, 12m,12m,12m,3m,3m,3m.

Legal in the NHLPA proposal. 60 million in 5 years, $8.6 cap hit. That's serious cap circumvention.

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12-09-2012, 11:25 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think everyone recognizes cap circumvention is was a joke.
And I think even the PA's offer of 25 percent + that recomputation thing f people retire early... shows the PA is willing to move on the issue.

The sides are very close. The NHL is going full bore to try to scare the PA into a couple big concessions in the last week and Fehr does't scare easy.
The NHLPA is NOT proposing a 25% variance.

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12-09-2012, 11:29 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
You understand the issue quite well but forgot that this is about a negotiation. If you know the other side want something that you also want but they asked for it first why would give it out unless you get a concession back on another point.
Correct, but if we are to believe Fehr and we really are that close to a deal (I personally do not think so mind you) and that this is one of the last sticking points, why would you be willing to lose a whole season for an item that only benefits 2% of your constituents and hurts the other 98%?

To me the two biggest obstacles as outlined by Fehr are the length of the CBA and the issue on cap circumvention. If cap circumvention harms 98% of the people you represent, and you claim to want to break the cycle of lockouts, the positions he is holding fast against are actually at odds with his mandate and stated goals. And that reeks of agenda. (as bad the the NHL negotiating ploys too).

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12-09-2012, 11:31 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
That's not fair at all considering what the PA has on the table.

There isn't any room for serious cap circumvention in the PA's offer.
10m 10m 2.5m 2.5m 2.5m Is not circumvention? Hell that is just a 5 year deal.

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Old
12-09-2012, 11:48 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
I do obviously think the NHLPA mindtrust and Fehr understand it. But my feeling is they are holding onto this issue not for the good of the players, but for the good of their agenda.

I've been is several unions, and if union leadership were making proposals that benefited the top 2% of members and hurt the rest, they would not have been in a position of leadership for long.
What do you think happens when we have 5 year contracts?

When owners can no longer exchange Salary for security, and all they can compete with is salary, what do you think happens to the $2 and $3M NHLer?

They become $1 and $2M Nhlers so you can afford the big names.

Besides, while there are similar principals with the PA and a regular union, they are not the same beast.

In any union I've ever belonged to, it was basically equal pay for equal work + seniority raises.

You didn't have one guy earning $16 an hour and another $320 an hour.

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12-09-2012, 11:50 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
The NHLPA is NOT proposing a 25% variance.
Got a link for that?
I haven't read that.

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12-09-2012, 11:51 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
MY thoughts exactly. Imagine a trade deadline day that actually had impactful trades of big names.

This is the best thing for fans, so why are people saying it sucks?
I suppose it's great if your team can afford to acquire all these players and you don't mind being a fan of the team that loses them. Some fans (like me, for one) like some stability on our roster. Not only because it keeps a team together, but because we feel stability is necessary to build and maintain a winning team.

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Originally Posted by Panthers are Red View Post
Isn't there a loophole in the 5 and 7 years limits that would allow players to effectively sign longer contracts? This would be done by signing a 1 year contract for any team and instantly following it up with a 7 year deal, as they can be be signed as soon as a player is in the final year of their contract. This would basically give a player an 8 year contract, which is what they are trying to negotiate for.
Don't they have to wait until after January or February before they can sign an extension? If so, the player is taking a huge risk under your scenario. If he suffers a career ending injury before that extension is negotiated and signed, he's out of luck. If he has already signed a 7-year, guaranteed contract, he's set for life even if he suffers that injury the first day of the deal.

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12-09-2012, 11:52 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Got a link for that?
I haven't read that.

It was in Fehr's last proposal - a contract can't have a year where the salary is less than 25% of the biggest year's salary.

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12-09-2012, 11:53 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
5 years contract limit will impact the PA by putting more players in UFA status every year. If the the UFA market become a buyer market the going rate will go down by a lot. On the other hand it will incite more average players to resign with current teams balancing the whole deal and pretty much nullifying the effect anyway. Also five years max with players out of entry level at 25 put them at 30. Teams won't be able to buy out more than 3 years out of free agency. That good for everybody who want to see more quality free agent hit the market. The thing is I don't get how any of this crap could be a reason to hold out on a deal for both sides. Ego must be getting in the way that not something I go to war over.
We're talking an average of about 4 more players becoming eligible for UFA each year with a five year contract limit. When you consider that a portion of them will resign beforehand you'll probably talking around 2 extra players per season going onto the UFA market.

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Old
12-09-2012, 11:58 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Got a link for that?
I haven't read that.
You can go watch Fehr's press conference. They are proposing a rule that says the lowest year of the contract must be at least 25% of the highest year. Fehr called it the Crosby rule referencing Crosby's contract.

Crosby's contract goes from 12 Million to 3 Million (a few years in the middle around 10 million). It's a lot more than 25% variance. In fact, there's no yearly variance, the only limitation is a 75% variance limit between the highest year and lowest year.

So, again, this is a legal contract under the NHLPA proposal: 12m, 12m, 12m, 12m, 12m, 3m, 3m, 3m. $60 Million in first 5 years with an $8.6 Million cap hit.

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12-09-2012, 11:59 AM
  #114
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle6124439/

Quote:
It’s farcical for Bettman to claim Don Fehr was being deliberately misleading when he suggested on Thursday a deal is at hand.

Of course it is, it’s just that the NHLPA isn’t willing to swallow the owners’ proposal whole.

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12-09-2012, 12:04 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
You can go watch Fehr's press conference. They are proposing a rule that says the lowest year of the contract must be at least 25% of the highest year. Fehr called it the Crosby rule referencing Crosby's contract.

Crosby's contract goes from 12 Million to 3 Million (a few years in the middle around 10 million). It's a lot more than 25% variance. In fact, there's no yearly variance, the only limitation is a 75% variance limit between the highest year and lowest year.

So, again, this is a legal contract under the NHLPA proposal: 12m, 12m, 12m, 12m, 12m, 3m, 3m, 3m. $60 Million in first 5 years with an $8.6 Million cap hit.
Ah...
Ok
But if Crosby retires early to "circumvent the cap" then those circumvention years are considered into the future cap, too, according to the PA proposal.
So you if you get a way with a few years of cap circumvention, you'll pay for it later.

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12-09-2012, 12:12 PM
  #116
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I'll never understand why the League doesn't just charge the actual amount paid as the cap hit for the season. If they are serious about curbing circumvention...

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12-09-2012, 12:16 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I'll never understand why the League doesn't just charge the actual amount paid as the cap hit for the season. If they are serious about curbing circumvention...
I 100% agree, and as its the amount paid instead of cap hit the counts towards the final percentage it makes even more sense.

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12-09-2012, 12:16 PM
  #118
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Revenue sharing is too artificial. This removes the responsibility of the poorer teams to make a profit. Instead, teams in weak markets like Phoenix and Anaheim should fly in fans from Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and New York. Bring the markets to the teams. Merchandising in those markets will flourish, too.

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12-09-2012, 12:19 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
It's equally facetious for Fehr to say that the Owners and Players agree on an item when the Players' proposal does not include the concession that the Owners are demanding in return for said item.

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12-09-2012, 12:23 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I'll never understand why the League doesn't just charge the actual amount paid as the cap hit for the season. If they are serious about curbing circumvention...
That could be abused too. Imagine a team that currently has a lot of cap space, but with some up and coming guys that will need raises soon. They sign someone to a huge cap hit in the first year or two then a low cap hit for several more years, just in time for their up-and-comers to be getting their big contracts. That's just one idea, I'm sure there are others.

But if the players are worried about individuals getting too much money, why not just reduce the maximum % of the cap a single player can get?

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12-09-2012, 12:31 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by KPower View Post
I said 5 year max contracts will affect 90% of players because the superstars will be demanding max contracts if they can only sign for 5 years.

Therefore there will be less money for everyone else.

Players like the Sedins won't sign for 6 million/year for 12 years. They will demand 10-12 million/year and it will affect everyone else on the team.
They can demand 10-12M all fay but no one is going to pay it.

Stars will make what their caps hits are not in actual salary (7-9M) because that's all teams can afford to pay them and field a competitive team.

Like I said earlier, there isn't enough cap space to go around for all these players to get 9m+ contacts.

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12-09-2012, 12:32 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by AUAIOMRN View Post
That could be abused too. Imagine a team that currently has a lot of cap space, but with some up and coming guys that will need raises soon. They sign someone to a huge cap hit in the first year or two then a low cap hit for several more years, just in time for their up-and-comers to be getting their big contracts. That's just one idea, I'm sure there are others.

But if the players are worried about individuals getting too much money, why not just reduce the maximum % of the cap a single player can get?
I see what you're saying, but I don't think I would call that cap circumvention. I think the defining trait of cap circumvention is the use of non-playing years. But I guess if thats the defining trait, then the NHLPA's cap benefit recapture idea takes care of that.

Either way, the NHL's proposal for a 5 year term limit doesn't directly address cap circumvention. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing, truly intended to reduce Owner risk and operating costs.

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12-09-2012, 12:37 PM
  #123
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I haven't checked the math, but I read on twitter that player salaries have grown 33% in the last 8 years and NHL revenue has grown 50% over the same time frame.

If you take that to be true, then players have seen their profits grow 33% and the league has seen their number one expense grow 33% and their revenue only grow 50%. This leaves the NHL with a potential profit growth of 17% if the cost of doing business hasn't grown at all. Does anyone think that the cost of doing business as fallen the last 8 years? Doesn anyone think that the cost of doing business has fallen 16% to make up the difference of the two sides?

With this information, shouldn't the NHLPA be the ones giving most of the concessions?



I don't know a lot about the other sports, but does anyone know what the salary versus revenue split is for the other major sports the last 8 years? Or where to find the financials of the other sports (other than google )?

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12-09-2012, 12:39 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Good point.
But as the PA is now suggesting 8 years with 25 percent variance, this barely even matters
It's actually 75% variance.

The lowest year can't be less than 25% of the highest, which is 75%.

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12-09-2012, 12:49 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I'll never understand why the League doesn't just charge the actual amount paid as the cap hit for the season. If they are serious about curbing circumvention...
This solves the issue. It Edmonton should be able to offer a good contract to someone just now with a lower amount later on when their stars are due a substantial raise.

Back diving contracts into retirement are an issue, beyond that, they should be able to offer whatever they want to players. If they don't go to actual value and keep with the avg cap hit, then just punish the people who have players retire during the low years of their salary.

ie contracts greater than 5 yrs that go into age 39-40 should keep the entire cap hit in case of retirement, outside of injury. Contracts at 37-38 keep half the hit maybe?

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