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Alexei Morozov and Alexander Radulov

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08-09-2012, 07:10 PM
  #26
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
The main issue here is legends built on limited viewings and hyperbole. We had the chance to see Slava Kozlov de-mystified in NHL format. In some ways the same can be said of a Valeri Kamensky. We don't really know what a lot of the other Soviet greats would have done in the NHL.
Perhaps, but your argument won't gain much traction with me personally when you discount two decades of best-on-best competitions that saw the Soviets fare well against NHLers.

You're lacking appropriate examples citing Kozlov and Kamensky. Both suffered meaningful injuries before coming to North America which would have stymied their careers whether they were Soviets or Canadians.

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08-09-2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Pitiful performance?

Zaripov-Zinvoiev-Morozov was Russia's most consistent line start to finish at the 2010 olympics.....and that was even with Zinoviev playing through a severe leg injury which sidelined him for the rest of the year.

Yes they sucked vs Canada, but so too did Russia's "NHL superstars".
I thought they looked awful vs the Czech Republic too. They looked like they were skating in mud compared to NHL stars, clearly not used to the speed and level of play of the best players in the world. I don't know; maybe they dominated the lesser teams earlier, but I was very unimpressed by the level of play in the KHL after watching them.

Ovechkin, Malkin, etc stunk against Canada too, but they didn't look like they didn't belong on the same ice surface.

Do the KHLers dominate the World Championships like the best Soviets did before the fall of the Iron Curtain?

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08-09-2012, 07:23 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
The main issue here is legends built on limited viewings and hyperbole. We had the chance to see Slava Kozlov de-mystified in NHL format. In some ways the same can be said of a Valeri Kamensky. We don't really know what a lot of the other Soviet greats would have done in the NHL.
Kozlov was 19 years old when he came to the NHL. How is an NHL scout's incorrect prediction on a junior-aged player relevant to international superstars in their primes?

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08-10-2012, 04:31 AM
  #29
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I must have missed the occasions when Morozov and Radulov were outstanding in best-on-best tournaments like Makarov and Krutov were time and time again.

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08-10-2012, 04:47 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Radulov had very good ES advanced stats as well. But he was placed in very favourable offensive situations.

Martin Havlat might be a good comparable.
Havlat might have made more noise if he could have stayed healthier from '03-'08

24th in points in 2004 (2 away from 20th), despite missing 14 games
22th in points in 2009 (1 away from 20th)

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08-10-2012, 08:55 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Pitiful performance?

Zaripov-Zinvoiev-Morozov was Russia's most consistent line start to finish at the 2010 olympics.....and that was even with Zinoviev playing through a severe leg injury which sidelined him for the rest of the year.

Yes they sucked vs Canada, but so too did Russia's "NHL superstars".
That line is seriously underrated. Maybe its because no historian bothers to stream KHL and watch the games and/or still have a bias vs. players outside of the NHL.

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08-10-2012, 11:17 AM
  #32
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That line is seriously underrated. Maybe its because no historian bothers to stream KHL and watch the games and/or still have a bias vs. players outside of the NHL.
Not sure how watching KHL games in a vacuum gives you any idea what caliber these guys are.

As I saw it, the reaction North Americans had to the KHL line's perceived failure was one of schadenfreude. We had been told over and over again that with an infusion of oil money, the KHL was going to take professional hockey in Russia—I don't remember ever hearing that the RSL was comparable to the NHL—and bring it to a level where it could compete for the best players in the world. And even though they managed to get exactly 2 players who were seriously talented, young and part of an NHL teams plans (Radulov and Hudler), to go along with several older stars and more marginal players, the whole operation was hyped as being serious competition for the world's best hockey league. To us, inviting the KHL players that the Russian Olympic team did over several good Russian NHLers (I believe Frolov was one), looked like they were trying to prove a point about how good their league was. And then...

But anyway, the point is that no one is going to judge how certain KHL players stack up against the world's best by watching KHL games. We can judge guys who have regularly ferried back and forth, like Radulov, Hudler, Jagr, Morozov, by their play in both leagues, and we can take the small samples we've seen of them in international play for what that is. But watching a guy like Zinvoiev tear up the KHL only proves anything if you assume for the get go that it's a top-level league...or possibly find some evidence that it actually is.

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08-10-2012, 11:33 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
b) a lot of what we know about them is hearsay. I remember an anecdote about scouts claiming that a 17 year old Vyacheslav Kozlov was better than Bure, Fedorov and Mogilny, but with empirical NHL observation, we know this isn't the case. What other historical distortions are informing our notions of the Soviet greats?
I see your point here, but the Kozlov example doesn't do it any justice.

When he was 17, Kozlov likely WAS as good as the other Russian superstars. He was hardly the first prospect to fall behind as he aged, and he actually had a decent alibi given the physical and mental trauma he endured.

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08-10-2012, 12:25 PM
  #34
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KHL forwards did not do so bad in 2010, certainly not much worse than Malkin and Ovechkin (but still bad, and worse than Datsyuk's line), especially with Zinoviev's injury. KHL defensemen, OTOH... Still to me the blame lies squarely with Bykov and Zakharkin.

There were only three NHLers with any legitimate chance who were left off the team: Kovalev (who was having a terrible season), Anisimov (who was still young and a bit of an enigma), and Frolov. Bringing Victor Kozlov over Frolov proved costly.

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08-10-2012, 03:15 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought they looked awful vs the Czech Republic too. They looked like they were skating in mud compared to NHL stars, clearly not used to the speed and level of play of the best players in the world. I don't know; maybe they dominated the lesser teams earlier, but I was very unimpressed by the level of play in the KHL after watching them.

Ovechkin, Malkin, etc stunk against Canada too, but they didn't look like they didn't belong on the same ice surface.

Do the KHLers dominate the World Championships like the best Soviets did before the fall of the Iron Curtain?

Well, you must have been watching a different 2010 olympics then.

Of course the KHL doesn't have elite NHL calibre players (apart from Radulov), but that doesn't mean they can't compete against the NHL's best. It happens all the time in olympic and WC competition. Germany (DELers), Switzerland (NLAers), Slovakia (large contingent of KHLers) regularly play the NHLs best very close (and sometimes achieve victory).
The NHL is NOT so far ahead whereby they make other league's elites players look like they're skating in mud. That's ridiculous.

As for Radulov/Morozov, I think Radulov could be a regular contenter for top 30 NHL point producer. Morozov (in his prime) could've been a 1st line NHL talent if the NHL was played on big ice.....but of course they're not a Kharlamov or Makarov.

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08-14-2012, 09:56 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
When their careers are over, is it at all possible to make the claim that Morozov and Radulov are among the all-time greats in the history of hockey given their level of dominance in the KHL?

Assuming the answer is going to be an indignant NO, how is their circumstance different than when Soviet era greats who are highly regarded by historians despite the fact that North American audiences mostly know these Soviet era greats in limited international competitions or as past their prime NHLers?
Because no one who ever watched Morozov will think he dominated, or was even a very good NHLer. He was a talent that went to waste.

Makarov, Krutov, etc. are commonly considered to have been stars in the NHL in the 1980s. They performed well against Canada at top level tournaments and gave them all they could handle. Even though there is a "what if" factor involved the truth is our eyes tell us how great these old Soviets were

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12-08-2012, 07:32 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
But what about the tendency of the Soviet era to stack its CSKA Moscow club with basically the cream of the crop, making it a basically non competitive league? How do we evaluate the greatness of individual players who weren't playing against meaningful competition?
CSKA played 34 games against NHL teams winning 24 and losing 8 (Won 6 series to 0)
Dynamo played 20 games against NHL teams winning 10 and losing 6 (Won 4 series to 0)
Krylya Sovetov played 13 games against NHL teams winning 6 and losing 5. (Won 2 series to 1)
Spartak played 5 games against NHL teams winning 3 and losing 2 (Won 1 series to 0)
Khimik Voskresensk played 13 games against NHL teams winning 6 and losing 6 (Both series were tied).

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12-08-2012, 07:39 AM
  #38
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Well, you must have been watching a different 2010 olympics then.

Of course the KHL doesn't have elite NHL calibre players (apart from Radulov), but that doesn't mean they can't compete against the NHL's best. It happens all the time in olympic and WC competition. Germany (DELers), Switzerland (NLAers), Slovakia (large contingent of KHLers) regularly play the NHLs best very close (and sometimes achieve victory).
The NHL is NOT so far ahead whereby they make other league's elites players look like they're skating in mud. That's ridiculous.

As for Radulov/Morozov, I think Radulov could be a regular contenter for top 30 NHL point producer. Morozov (in his prime) could've been a 1st line NHL talent if the NHL was played on big ice.....but of course they're not a Kharlamov or Makarov.
What people seem to forget is the Russian Roster at the 2006 Olympics had more RSL (KHL whatever ) players than in the 2010 Olympics. Russia knocked out Canada (2-0), won against the USA (5-4) and won against eventual gold medal winners Sweden (5-0). Rink size may have been a factor in 2010 but it is very unfair to rip on that KHL line, Bykov got a lot wrong in 2010 from team selection to tactics.

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12-08-2012, 11:01 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The 1972 and 1974 Summit Series, the 1979 Challenge Cup, the 1976, 1981, 1984, 1987 and 1991 Canada Cups and approximately 100 exhibition games between Soviet and NHL clubs isn't enough of a sample?
Have someone gathered the player stats from these games? Would be real cool. Obviously many more NHL-clubs was represented then the soviet sent, but we could still see some patterns there.

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12-09-2012, 04:39 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
When their careers are over, is it at all possible to make the claim that Morozov and Radulov are among the all-time greats in the history of hockey given their level of dominance in the KHL?
Assuming the answer is going to be an indignant NO, how is their circumstance different than when Soviet era greats who are highly regarded by historians despite the fact that North American audiences mostly know these Soviet era greats in limited international competitions or as past their prime NHLers?
Yeah, Patrick Thoresen too.

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12-09-2012, 05:48 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
You're lacking appropriate examples citing Kozlov and Kamensky. Both suffered meaningful injuries before coming to North America which would have stymied their careers whether they were Soviets or Canadians.
Maybe he meant Vyacheslav FETISOV and Kamensky? They both together with Larionov and to some extent an aging Makarov proved to me that the soviets best was for real. When Fetisov and Larionov adjusted, they at an old age showed glimpses of just how good they must have been at their best.
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I see your point here, but the Kozlov example doesn't do it any justice.

When he was 17, Kozlov likely WAS as good as the other Russian superstars. He was hardly the first prospect to fall behind as he aged, and he actually had a decent alibi given the physical and mental trauma he endured.
What on earth in his early stats merits him being considered even at the same level as Bure? Maybe he was a more complete player already?

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Originally Posted by Dynamo81 View Post
CSKA played 34 games against NHL teams winning 24 and losing 8 (Won 6 series to 0)
Dynamo played 20 games against NHL teams winning 10 and losing 6 (Won 4 series to 0)
Krylya Sovetov played 13 games against NHL teams winning 6 and losing 5. (Won 2 series to 1)
Spartak played 5 games against NHL teams winning 3 and losing 2 (Won 1 series to 0)
Khimik Voskresensk played 13 games against NHL teams winning 6 and losing 6 (Both series were tied).
Yeah, and the question really is if the NHL at the time actually had'nt equal disparity in the league? First Montreal then the Islanders and Oilers. At the same time, the soviets did not send their bottom dwellers to these "exhibitions".

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Because no one who ever watched Morozov will think he dominated, or was even a very good NHLer. He was a talent that went to waste.
Before he left, i think he was well on his way towards becoming a top-20 scorer in the NHL, whatever that is worth concerning his all-time status. It's safe to say his growing dominance over the following years concludes that.


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12-09-2012, 10:57 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Before he left, i think he was well on his way towards becoming a top-20 scorer in the NHL, whatever that is worth concerning his all-time status. It's safe to say his growing dominance over the following years concludes that.
In his final season Morozov had a 33 game goal scoring drought wedged between a mediocre start and a good finish. He was still maddeningly inconsistent at 26, even from game to game. I've never seen him dominate at anything, and I doubt he had the mental and physical power to do that in the NHL. He was a pretty nice guy and very skilled, but the definition of a soft perimeter player who wilted into the background when things got tough. Going back to Russia to become a RSL/KHL superstar was the right decision.

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12-09-2012, 11:06 AM
  #43
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Yeah, Patrick Thoresen too.
You guys are missing the whole point.

Using examples like Morozov, I'm basically pointing at guys we know aren't that great in the NHL, but who still managed to dominate overseas in other leagues for extended periods of time.

Given that we didn't see a lot of Soviet stars play in their primes on a night to night basis against NHL competition, how can we be sure if some of those all-time Soviet greats weren't just Alexei Morozov's who looked good from a distance and in limited international competition?

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12-09-2012, 11:11 AM
  #44
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If Morozov played every game against Marty Brodeur, he would have shattered all of Gretzky's records

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12-09-2012, 12:56 PM
  #45
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In his final season Morozov had a 33 game goal scoring drought wedged between a mediocre start and a good finish. He was still maddeningly inconsistent at 26, even from game to game. I've never seen him dominate at anything, and I doubt he had the mental and physical power to do that in the NHL. He was a pretty nice guy and very skilled, but the definition of a soft perimeter player who wilted into the background when things got tough. Going back to Russia to become a RSL/KHL superstar was the right decision.

There is no doubt that Morozov became better with time playing in Russia. The stats is there to see. Whether that would translate in doing the same in the NHL as well will always be something to prove for sure but i do maintain that Morozov became better the last three years in the NHL. Scoring slump or no scoring slump his stats the last three years were better and he then grew with age in the KHL as well. It sure would have been interesting to see him after the lockout with the "new" rules implemented, as many "soft" players did advance quite a bit under these new circumstances, or in Slava Kozlovs case, return to the statistical heights they had lost before it.

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12-09-2012, 01:08 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The 1972 and 1974 Summit Series, the 1979 Challenge Cup, the 1976, 1981, 1984, 1987 and 1991 Canada Cups and approximately 100 exhibition games between Soviet and NHL clubs isn't enough of a sample?
What you say is true but the context of how those teams performed under the iron fist of the system gets underplayed a bit here too at times.

We saw how the big 5 fared in the NHL and the smallest guy, Larinov had the longest career so the wear and tear argument gets a bit overplayed at times, especially in the case of the two Dmen and Krutov who was less impressive than Morozov.

Morozov has a skill set that would have done quite well in the 80's or even before but in the clutch and grab era and coaching guys like him and Filatov can get lost in the system really quickly if they don't buy in.

I'm with Czech your Math on the bet of him making top 20 in scoring at some point, if he had stayed.

Morozov no doubt will be regarded in a lower light due in part to his larger and less impressive NHL career but the jury is still out on Rads.

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12-09-2012, 01:27 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Dynamo81 View Post
CSKA played 34 games against NHL teams winning 24 and losing 8 (Won 6 series to 0)
Dynamo played 20 games against NHL teams winning 10 and losing 6 (Won 4 series to 0)
Krylya Sovetov played 13 games against NHL teams winning 6 and losing 5. (Won 2 series to 1)
Spartak played 5 games against NHL teams winning 3 and losing 2 (Won 1 series to 0)
Khimik Voskresensk played 13 games against NHL teams winning 6 and losing 6 (Both series were tied).
this isn't a fair comp though, rusian players were playing behind the iron curtain, NHL teams were playing exhibitions that didn't count in the standings in their long nHL seasons.

To draw too much out of these results would be misleading IMO.

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12-09-2012, 02:09 PM
  #48
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this isn't a fair comp though, rusian players were playing behind the iron curtain, NHL teams were playing exhibitions that didn't count in the standings in their long nHL seasons.

To draw too much out of these results would be misleading IMO.
Eh, it was the same for both we understand. But were these really seen as real exhibitions by the two sides? I remember CSKA coming into Madison Square Garden to a not too friendly crowd. They beat the Rangers 7-3 i believe.

But back to the soviet teams. CSKA was all too stacked to be a good matchup against one of the many NHL teams, and the other in the list was also top teams in their league going up against sometimes bottom NHL-teams. This is why someone should make a list of the meetings where top NHL-teams was participating.

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12-09-2012, 02:52 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
You guys are missing the whole point.

Using examples like Morozov, I'm basically pointing at guys we know aren't that great in the NHL, but who still managed to dominate overseas in other leagues for extended periods of time.

Given that we didn't see a lot of Soviet stars play in their primes on a night to night basis against NHL competition, how can we be sure if some of those all-time Soviet greats weren't just Alexei Morozov's who looked good from a distance and in limited international competition?
No. All of us can name 10 to 15 better russians than morozov who are in the NHL. Hes dominating a league devoid of top end talent. Its like dropping a 2nd liner from the NHL into the AHL... There is no comparison between him and the celebrated stars of old russia.

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12-09-2012, 03:49 PM
  #50
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Using examples like Morozov, I'm basically pointing at guys we know aren't that great in the NHL, but who still managed to dominate overseas in other leagues for extended periods of time.
The question has been answered several times. If Malkin, Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk etc all played in the RSL/KHL then you'd have a comparable to the Soviet league. They are the best Russian players just like Makarov, Krutov, Fetisov etc were the best Soviet players. No one believes Morozov is (or was) the best Russian player of his time.

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NHL teams were playing exhibitions that didn't count in the standings in their long nHL seasons.
The exhibition games didn't count in the Soviet league standing either.

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