The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
Can we refocus the thread on issues related to the Coyotes, Glendale, Jamison, etc.?
I would suggest that if someone wants to discuss the relative merits of the Winnipeg hockey market, they should start a new thread and see where it leads. Using this thread to take pot-shots at markets, fans, etc. is a long tradition, but it's a bit of a tired act (on both sides).
In 2006-2007 the Blackhawks had 12,727 fans per game. Should the team been shut-down by the NHL? They were also 29th in attendnace in 2005-2006.
The Blackhawks also had a long history of selling out for decades. If Bill Wirtz had put the team up for sale, the team would have had a long line of groups willing to buy the team and keep them in Chicago. In this situation, the fans were fed up with the ownership not investing in the team.
The problem for the Coyotes is that no one is willing to keep the team in Glendale unless Glendale throws $300+ million at them. That is a big problem. Glendale invested $180 million to build the arena, and then spend almost double that trying to keep a tenant there.
The Blackhawks also had a long history of selling out for decades. If Bill Wirtz had put the team up for sale, the team would have had a long line of groups willing to buy the team and keep them in Chicago. In this situation, the fans were fed up with the ownership not investing in the team.
The problem for the Coyotes is that no one is willing to keep the team in Glendale unless Glendale throws $300+ million at them. That is a big problem. Glendale invested $180 million to build the arena, and then spend almost double that trying to keep a tenant there.
Pretty astute for your first 2 posts there, rookie. Welcome aboard. Lots of opinion & entertainment in this mega thread monster. Even after the Jets came back I still can't get enough of this topic "I can't quit you, Ray!!!!"
I agree with all the above.... and add a third..... booking more non-hockey events (ie concerts, alternative sporting events) that will bring in positive revenues. That will benefit both Jamison and Glendale.
I'm not sure how successful that will be. Phoenix already has one large arena, the US Airways Center. In addition, there is the Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum, Wells Fargo Arena, and two large covered stadiums. That's a lot of potential concert venues to compete with, and Jobing.com Arena isn't helped by it's location.
When people ask you where you're from and you say Winnipeg, immediately they respond with "Ohh the home of the Winnipeg Jets, right?". When people ask where are you're from and you say Phoenix AZ or Glendale AZ, they don't say "Ohh the Phoenix Coyotes" AZ is associated with the Cardinals and Suns.
[MOD]... before they built a new stadium out in Glendale, the Cardinals were very irrelevant, never sold out except when the Cowboys came to town. Care to revise your statement a bit?
Last edited by Killion: 12-09-2012 at 11:42 AM.
Reason: not reqd;
There is something else that Winnipeg figured out, probably by accident. It is cheaper to build a 15,000 seat arena than a 18,000 seat arena. The most expensive seat to build in an arena is going to be the one you sell for the cheapest price. So unless you're selling out every night, it makes no sense to have an 18,000 seat arena because you are wasting money.
The Blackhawks also had a long history of selling out for decades. If Bill Wirtz had put the team up for sale, the team would have had a long line of groups willing to buy the team and keep them in Chicago. In this situation, the fans were fed up with the ownership not investing in the team.
The problem for the Coyotes is that no one is willing to keep the team in Glendale unless Glendale throws $300+ million at them. That is a big problem. Glendale invested $180 million to build the arena, and then spend almost double that trying to keep a tenant there.
And the sad part is they don't get any equity out of it. For 300+ million Glendale could buy the Coyotes pay the loss for the next ten years and if by any luck they turn it around with revenue sharing and a lower cap enjoy some profit. Or if the loss pile up flip it to Markham for 400 million.
MOD... before they built a new stadium out in Glendale, the Cardinals were very irrelevant, never sold out except when the Cowboys came to town. Care to revise your statement a bit?
No, I stand by it. While the Cardinals may not be as big on the radar as the Suns they are still much more known and appreciated than the Coyotes.
And the sad part is they don't get any equity out of it. For 300+ million Glendale could buy the Coyotes pay the loss for the next ten years and if by any luck they turn it around with revenue sharing and a lower cap enjoy some profit. Or if the loss pile up flip it to Markham for 400 million.
There are also lots of other options for the arena then perhaps the Glendale city council realize. Other cities have also had the problem of a vacant large arena and what do with them after the main tenant leaves. Most cities have simply imploded the arena, while some have come up with some creative ways of keeping it around and making some money.
1. Turn it into a mega-church. Houston did this with the Compaq Center and for a while Inglewood did this with The Forum.
2. Turn it into a mall/movie theatre/store. Montreal did this with The Forum, Toronto with Maple Leaf Gardens, and Memphis with the Pyramid Arena. Buffalo tried to do this with the Aud.
3. Turn it into a concert only venue. New Jersey did this for the Izod Center and Inglewood is now doing this for The Forum.
4. Turn it into an office building. Sacramento did this with the original Arco Arena.
5. Turn it into a convention center. Salt Lake City did this with the Salt Palace.
There are other possibilities, including a museum, community center, etc. Maybe not all of these would work specifically in Glendale, but some have a good chance. With a lot of the above options, private sector helped out, or even paid for the refurbishment completely, so the cost of the re-hab wasn't nearly as great to the cities involved.
You fix them by having a consistent winner, and hiring good business/hockey people who can sell the experience and woo sponsors...
and for a couple of years the NHL did let nashville have as many saturday home games as possible, so they may do it for Phoenix as well
Good. All they have to do is make sure everybody is a consistent winner! Do they accomplish that by abolishing scores or something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic
still only 15005 fans a game. which is still 25th in the league. and they can't be helping the league with tv contract negotiation as they are a tiny market.
what happens when the canadian dollar goes back to be worthless again? the real solution is to fix the system. not move teams around constantly.
You're referring to the record historical low? It appears you do not understand why the dollar was worth what it was then or why it is worth what it is today.
Don't let your lack of comprehension stop you from posting though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aqib
Come on Puck, we let the cat out of the bag a long time ago. none of us Canadians really care about Glendale and whats good for Glendale, we just want the hockey team out of Glendale and into a Canadian city.
This ceased to be about the Coyotes for me long ago. They were merely the catalyst to get me interested in the situation, but this is all about Glendale for me now. The willingness to destroy themselves fiscally to subsidize a professional sports franchise is fascinating. I'm just observing this slow motion wreck unfolding.
This ceased to be about the Coyotes for me long ago. They were merely the catalyst to get me interested in the situation, but this is all about Glendale for me now. The willingness to destroy themselves fiscally to subsidize a professional sports franchise is fascinating. I'm just observing this slow motion wreck unfolding.
It a sad and funny overly long soap opera that already a texbook case of what not to do. At some point in the near future when the Mayor city get the Pro-Sports bug somebody will point to Glendale and say. "No freaking way!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimAnchower
Turn it into a mall/movie theatre/store. Montreal did this with The Forum, Toronto with Maple Leaf Gardens, and Memphis with the Pyramid Arena. Buffalo tried to do this with the Aud.
In Montreal case Molson just sold the Forum the city did not have to do anything same for the Maple Leaf. Turn out most business don't have any problem cutting ties with way more prestigious property than Jobbing.com arena. But public managers have the bad habit of holding on to investment good or bad to the point that they lose all value. This is where ego enter the equation public managers are more afraid to admit they made a bad call than cutting their loss. Because really it not their loss it the city loss. Better waste millon of the citizens tax than risk losing one own job.
no markets like winnipeg will not bring a big tv contract. Don't they have canadian hockey night or something in canada? If it is popular why doesn't it contribute masses of sums of money to the nhl? because no one lives in canada.
how hard is that to understand. you have no population. we have states with more people than your country. you have 3 real cities Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto.
Rochester and Binghamton New York both have more population in their metro areas than your 4th biggest city. MOD
winnipeg has like 600,000 people in their metro area, phoenix 4.2 million. and you wonder why the nhl doesn't want a team to leave phoenix?
The US has one state with a larger population than Canada (California at 37M) and Edmonton (our 6th largest city) has a larger metro population (1.159M) than metro Rochester (1.054M). Metro Binghamton (251K) would slide in at 18th largest were it a Canadian city just behind Saskatoon SK.
Please check your facts before you help to further propogate the stereotypical American ignorance regarding their neighbours (yes, that's how we spell it) to the north.
With his new deal from Glendale, Jamieson surely as finalised the sale? Did he? Since it as been said a long time ago that he had the money. Sorry havent been following...
Can we refocus the thread on issues related to the Coyotes, Glendale, Jamison, etc.? I would suggest that if someone wants to discuss the relative merits of the Winnipeg hockey market, they should start a new thread and see where it leads. Using this thread to take pot-shots at markets, fans, etc. is a long tradition, but it's a bit of a tired act (on both sides).
What Whileee said? You best be taking his advice, cuz I gots me a 30 0dd 6 perched on his shoulder, locked & loaded just waitin for the next member to come along with talk about Winnipeg, Chicago or Taos New Mexico.... 30 minutes on my clock cleaning up this thread people. Not impressed.
I'm not sure how successful that will be. Phoenix already has one large arena, the US Airways Center. In addition, there is the Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum, Wells Fargo Arena, and two large covered stadiums. That's a lot of potential concert venues to compete with, and Jobing.com Arena isn't helped by it's location.
C & P from old Phoenix threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209
Most years, until 2011, Jobbing.Com outdrew AWA/US Airways Center for concerts - based on Pollstar's Top 100 Worldwide Arena numbers (tickets sold for non sporting events).
C&P from one of the old Roman Numerals threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209
I came across Pollstar Arena lists for 2010 & 2011 - tickets sold to non-sporting events - and observe this not-too-surprising trend:
2008: #59 Jobing.com Arena Glendale, AZ 200,377
2009: #58 Jobing.com Arena Glendale, AZ 208,877
2010: #80 Jobing.com Arena Glendale, AZ 150,661
2011: #177 Jobing.com Arena Glendale, AZ 52,628
And you wonder why the arena is losing money?
The 2009 numbers put it at #17 among NHL arenas.
That said, competition from US Airways / AWA would still significantly impact arena profits - both from direct competition for bookings/customers and the ability of promoters to play them off against each other to secure higher $$$ guarantees.
That said, competition from US Airways / AWA would still significantly impact arena profits - both from direct competition for bookings/customers and the ability of promoters to play them off against each other to secure higher $$$ guarantees.
Those are really interesting numbers. Thanks for them!
My first reaction is that it is surprising that Phoenix's highest ranked venue is in 60th place. For such a large city, I would have figured it would have been much higher. This tells me that Jobing.com and USAirways are competing against each other for acts, and are probably impacting each other's profitability.
This has probably already been stated elsewhere, but USAirways does have two secondary tenants with the AFL and WNBA. They don't sell out, but they do bring some money in and help out with the bottom line. Somewhere in bowels of Arenadigest.com, I remember reading and article that stated a big arena needs about 120-150 games/concerts to break even. Looking at the calendar for Jobing.com, it looks bleak. This month, there was a Bruce Stringsteen concert and two Trans-siberian Orchestra concerts. For Jan 2013 to June 2013, there are four concerts. From July 2012-Nov 2012, there were eight concerts or sporting events. So 2012 numbers may not be much better than the 2011 numbers. 15 non-Coyotes events in 12 months isn't going to help bring the necessary revenue in.
The last point is why was there such a big drop from 2009 to 2010 and 2011? Did the arena management change?
With his new deal from Glendale, Jamieson surely as finalised the sale? Did he? Since it as been said a long time ago that he had the money. Sorry havent been following...
Before the Council voted, it was said that Jameson would need another 4-6 weeks to finalize the sale. He was given a(nother) deadline (by the mayor? didn't see that part) of Jan 31, 2013 to finalize it. He said he was confident he would be ready before then. That's what we're waiting for. Oh, and the new mayor-elect has softened his stance a bit on the deal.
Can we refocus the thread on issues related to the Coyotes, Glendale, Jamison, etc.?
I would suggest that if someone wants to discuss the relative merits of the Winnipeg hockey market, they should start a new thread and see where it leads. Using this thread to take pot-shots at markets, fans, etc. is a long tradition, but it's a bit of a tired act (on both sides).
This, exactly. Please.
I know we all need to vent our frustrations but sometimes it gets out of hand. Also please keep in mind the Phoenix fans on this site are real hockey fans. They know what's up with their market. It's like every third page comes complete with a recycled Phoenix bashing statement.
Why are we bringing Winnipeg up (especially within the aforementioned deconstructive contexts) again? And all the "what ifs" and comparisons all that? Who cares. It's one heck of a success story, and has strong ownership behind it. Fin.
Lets focus back on what this thread is about. I really enjoy lurking and reading the detailed discussion of the business ramifications of this franchise related with the city of Glendale but when these recycled poop fling filled comments get out of hand, it just drowns out what little great posts there actually are.
Before the Council voted, it was said that Jameson would need another 4-6 weeks to finalize the sale. He was given a(nother) deadline (by the mayor? didn't see that part) of Jan 31, 2013 to finalize it. He said he was confident he would be ready before then. That's what we're waiting for. Oh, and the new mayor-elect has softened his stance a bit on the deal.
I wouldn't categorize that the mayor elect softened his stance. He more or less is acknowledging that he can't do anything right now. If this deal is not signed, sealed and delivered by the times the council is in, IMO it's a new ball game
Can we refocus the thread on issues related to the Coyotes, Glendale, Jamison, etc.?
I would suggest that if someone wants to discuss the relative merits of the Winnipeg hockey market, they should start a new thread and see where it leads. Using this thread to take pot-shots at markets, fans, etc. is a long tradition, but it's a bit of a tired act (on both sides).
Yeah, really, come on guys, this thread is for pot-shots at Phoenix/Glendale as a market, COG as a council, Gary Bettman and Greg Jamison, IEH and others as suitors and potential owners of the Coyote franchise.
(I left out some others this thread takes potshots at like Skeete & Beasely & Hocking and such... cuz that would get boring)
Yeah, really, come on guys, this thread is for pot-shots at Phoenix/Glendale as a market, COG as a council, Gary Bettman and Greg Jamison, IEH and others as suitors and potential owners of the Coyote franchise.
(I left out some others this thread takes potshots at like Skeete & Beasely & Hocking and such... cuz that would get boring)
I, for one, find the actions of the majority of Glendale's council, Beasley, and Hocking to be indefensible to their stakeholders.
Pot-shots be damned, torpedos have been launched at them here, and deservedly so, imo.
The last point is why was there such a big drop from 2009 to 2010 and 2011? Did the arena management change?
The Arena Managers are the NHL IIRC (or at least the company the NHL used to buy the team) and have been criticized heavily for their handling of the event booking for the team. At the very least a decent arena manager would be able to bring Jobing.com into the realm of the other teams in the league that have multiple arenas in the city (as right now it sits just below the Halifax Metro Centre and just above the Florence Civic Centre).
Even Miami/Sunrise both have arenas in the top 30 and the Panthers have also received their fair share of criticism for building an arena outside of the major centre they're trying to represent. At the very least Phoenix and Glendale should be able to operate at similar levels to the Twin City teams.
Not to mention the Sprint Centre in KC outdraws twenty NHL arenas but as far as I know Glendale has never looked into the potential of not having an anchor tenant but keeping the arena open.
