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Old
12-08-2012, 12:52 AM
  #226
Some Other Flame
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It's astonishing how many people have fallen for the leagues propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

Fehr gets his mandate from the players. If the majority of players said 'we want to sign the NHL's last proposal,' then that's exactly what would happen.

It's amazing how people can believe it when Bettman comes out and says Fehr's distorting the truth or not giving the players the entire message. I mean do people not realize that its not like Bettman is going to tell the truth-that he can't deal with Fehr because he's not a pushover? That he can't handle dealing with someone who's uses the same tactics that he's used against the PA time and time again?

In the real world, the players have been a part of each bargaining session. All sorts of players. Many players. In fact, if any player wants to be a part of it, they can say the word, and the PA will get them an airline ticket.

No, not all 700+ players are going to be on the same page, but if the majority are pushing one way, then that's the way Fehr is going to go. People seriously need to read up on how Fehr runs a players association before believing any two bit source.

And really, the only people who can believe it's Fehr whose responsible for the current of affairs fail to realize just how scummy the stunt the league tried to pull the other day. Fehr is the hired representative of the players; the guy they've chosen to represent them in a multi-billion dollar negotiation. Instead of sitting down with him and getting a fair deal done, the league instead tries to undercut his position and deal directly with the players, thus de-legitimizing the entire players association. Incredibly unprofessional.

The only reason a deal hasn't been signed yet is because the owners still think breaking the union is the only way to do things.

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12-08-2012, 01:46 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
It's astonishing how many people have fallen for the leagues propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

Fehr gets his mandate from the players. If the majority of players said 'we want to sign the NHL's last proposal,' then that's exactly what would happen.

It's amazing how people can believe it when Bettman comes out and says Fehr's distorting the truth or not giving the players the entire message. I mean do people not realize that its not like Bettman is going to tell the truth-that he can't deal with Fehr because he's not a pushover? That he can't handle dealing with someone who's uses the same tactics that he's used against the PA time and time again?

In the real world, the players have been a part of each bargaining session. All sorts of players. Many players. In fact, if any player wants to be a part of it, they can say the word, and the PA will get them an airline ticket.

No, not all 700+ players are going to be on the same page, but if the majority are pushing one way, then that's the way Fehr is going to go. People seriously need to read up on how Fehr runs a players association before believing any two bit source.

And really, the only people who can believe it's Fehr whose responsible for the current of affairs fail to realize just how scummy the stunt the league tried to pull the other day. Fehr is the hired representative of the players; the guy they've chosen to represent them in a multi-billion dollar negotiation. Instead of sitting down with him and getting a fair deal done, the league instead tries to undercut his position and deal directly with the players, thus de-legitimizing the entire players association. Incredibly unprofessional.

The only reason a deal hasn't been signed yet is because the owners still think breaking the union is the only way to do things.
People have been believing that for a long time.

I think the players are putting too much trust into their player reps, who are in turn putting too much trust in Fehr. I think if they put that last proposal to a vote it would have passed easily and we'd be talking about training camp right now.

You are making a lot of assumptions about people who have a different opinion than you. We are no more informed or misinformed than you, it's just our opinion.

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12-09-2012, 11:31 AM
  #228
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Bettman absolutely has his strengths and without question has grown the game. But I can't ignore the fact that he has had 3 consecutive work stoppages on his watch, including being the first pro sports leauge to miss an entire season and is now on the verge of repeating that again. While the players do not need to be his friend, if they do not respect him at all this is going to be a recurring thing. As a fan, its unacceptable.

I've heard Fehr on the radio give 2 interviews, and I've always respected his method and approach to his position. While I don't know the man, his words is what I base my opinion off of. He said he approaches his role in the PA to be the voice of the players and what their wants are. He communicates and translates the numbers to the players and is their voice in negotiations. If the majority of the players wanted to settle for the owners offer, Fehr would make that deal. He said he does not try to influence them based off hos opinion, whether that's true or not no one in here knows.

I've said this many times, this whole thing sucks as a fan. Both sides and leaders have faults and were the ones who are paying for it. I'm on the side of hockey, and all I care about is that there appears to be no season in the near future.

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12-09-2012, 12:06 PM
  #229
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Bettman absolutely has his strengths and without question has grown the game. But I can't ignore the fact that he has had 3 consecutive work stoppages on his watch, including being the first pro sports leauge to miss an entire season and is now on the verge of repeating that again. While the players do not need to be his friend, if they do not respect him at all this is going to be a recurring thing. As a fan, its unacceptable.

I've heard Fehr on the radio give 2 interviews, and I've always respected his method and approach to his position. While I don't know the man, his words is what I base my opinion off of. He said he approaches his role in the PA to be the voice of the players and what their wants are. He communicates and translates the numbers to the players and is their voice in negotiations. If the majority of the players wanted to settle for the owners offer, Fehr would make that deal. He said he does not try to influence them based off hos opinion, whether that's true or not no one in here knows.

I've said this many times, this whole thing sucks as a fan. Both sides and leaders have faults and were the ones who are paying for it. I'm on the side of hockey, and all I care about is that there appears to be no season in the near future.
This is the same man who called a strike right before the playoffs in MLB right? The man has proven to not be a man of his word. Maybe you don't know his history maybe you have given him a clean slate but either way you can't solely place the blame on Bettman.

Seeing as the owners caved in on most of the topic this past week and the players still didn't want the offer how can you blame that on Bettman.

I agree 3 work stoppages does suck but look at the context of the last 2, in 2004 the players had 74% of HRR it is easy to see that the owners were losing money and something had to be done. Now the players have 57% of HRR which isn't terrible compared to what it was but we just saw last year both the NBA and NFL agreed to 50-50 and with many owners still reporting loses it seems 50-50 is the logical step except the players have resisted for most of the time.

I under stand it sucks but blaming one side isn't a solution it is both sides fault it has lasted this long but after seeing the last negotiations break down because the players broke the deal between the owners and players it is clear that the fault is not on Bettman.

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12-09-2012, 02:48 PM
  #230
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This is the same man who called a strike right before the playoffs in MLB right?
And Bettman is what? The same man who's avoided a lock-out 3 different times?

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The man has proven to not be a man of his word.
You need to back-up that statement. Do you have a quote or source where Fehr has promised the MLB owners he would not strike? Or perhaps your bias has caused you to regress into a child that would slander someone without any substantial evidence to support it?

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Maybe you don't know his history maybe you have given him a clean slate but either way you can't solely place the blame on Bettman.
Bettman has been around for how many work stoppages? Its easy to believe the player's fate was already written before Fehr came into his position, as the trend of league negotiating tactics is clearly to lock-out players.

But sole blame? Of course not, that's ridiculous.

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Seeing as the owners caved in on most of the topic this past week and the players still didn't want the offer how can you blame that on Bettman.
Really? What's the big deal about contracts greater than 5 years, especially in the whole scheme of things? What percent of players have 6 year contracts or longer?

The players give up 7% in NET revenue from a 3.3 billion dollar business. But I suppose the players haven't caved in any area...

Is it really worth Jeremy Jacobs threatening to leave negotiations like a child taking his ball and leaving?
(http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...5815--nhl.html)

Is it really worth Larry Tanenbaum whining about the player's negotiating, given that he's an part owner of a team making a billion in NET revenue? (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle6025944/). What does he have to whine about? I don't see him offering more in revenue sharing...

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I agree 3 work stoppages does suck but look at the context of the last 2, in 2004 the players had 74% of HRR it is easy to see that the owners were losing money and something had to be done. Now the players have 57% of HRR which isn't terrible compared to what it was but we just saw last year both the NBA and NFL agreed to 50-50 and with many owners still reporting loses it seems 50-50 is the logical step except the players have resisted for most of the time.
I see you're justifying the last lock-out, not exactly justifying the MLB strike though.... But I suppose when you're bias, one wrongful act is greater than another.

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I under stand it sucks but blaming one side isn't a solution it is both sides fault it has lasted this long but after seeing the last negotiations break down because the players broke the deal between the owners and players it is clear that the fault is not on Bettman.
One side is not at fault, yet ONE SIDE broke the deal? Do you even listen to yourself?

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12-09-2012, 02:56 PM
  #231
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I know Fehr's history, he helped build the union in MLB to a state of which it is arguably the best run union in all pro sports. I never once said Bettman and the NHL is solely to blame for all of this. Fehr is a hard negotiator and I think without question his ego due to his history has this already made this hard problem that much more complex. Bettman has many great assets, and he has been good for the NHL, but that doesn't matter to me anymore. His track record for work stoppages is the worst in the history of pro sports in any league. As a fan, to me it is unacceptable. Gary has done his part, and after this is resolved I'd like to see the NHL go in a different direction.

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12-09-2012, 03:07 PM
  #232
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I know Fehr's history, he helped build the union in MLB to a state of which it is arguably the best run union in all pro sports. I never once said Bettman and the NHL is solely to blame for all of this. Fehr is a hard negotiator and I think without question his ego due to his history has this already made this hard problem that much more complex. Bettman has many great assets, and he has been good for the NHL, but that doesn't matter to me anymore. His track record for work stoppages is the worst in the history of pro sports in any league. As a fan, to me it is unacceptable. Gary has done his part, and after this is resolved I'd like to see the NHL go in a different direction.
Bettman is also the smuggest person on the planet. He rubs players the wrong way and that in itself has caused tension between the players and owners. Given that a guy like Chelios threatens Bettman (an example among many), how can labour peace ever be accomplished when players inherently hate Bettman? And Chelios was [arguably] a franchise-face type of player.

I've read several articles about Fehr's history and tactics and generally the message is that this guy is honest to his constituents. He discloses absolutely everything and the owners will underestimate him even though his tactic is simple.

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12-09-2012, 03:12 PM
  #233
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And Bettman is what? The same man who's avoided a lock-out 3 different times?

Never said he did the owner's wanted 3 lockouts

You need to back-up that statement. Do you have a quote or source where Fehr has promised the MLB owners he would not strike? Or perhaps your bias has caused you to regress into a child that would slander someone without any substantial evidence to support it?

During the 94 season there was no cba so Fehr suggested they play the year under the old cba (sound familiar he tried that this time too) in good faith of course then just before the playoffs (where owner's make the most profit) he called a strike ending the season and showing he is not to be trusted.

Bettman has been around for how many work stoppages? Its easy to believe the player's fate was already written before Fehr came into his position, as the trend of league negotiating tactics is clearly to lock-out players.

The owners wanted to negotiate a year before the cba ran out Fehr wanted to wait until summer and then he took 2 months to actually start the negotiations. The players sealed there own fate by waiting so long to start a negotiations.

But sole blame? Of course not, that's ridiculous.



Really? What's the big deal about contracts greater than 5 years, especially in the whole scheme of things? What percent of players have 6 year contracts or longer?

The players give up 7% in NET revenue from a 3.3 billion dollar business. But I suppose the players haven't caved in any area...

Is it really worth Jeremy Jacobs threatening to leave negotiations like a child taking his ball and leaving?
(http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl...5815--nhl.html)

Is it really worth Larry Tanenbaum whining about the player's negotiating, given that he's an part owner of a team making a billion in NET revenue? (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle6025944/). What does he have to whine about? I don't see him offering more in revenue sharing...

The owner's need to give on the 5 year contracts but most likely to 7 years as that is the most that can be insured.

I see you're justifying the last lock-out, not exactly justifying the MLB strike though.... But I suppose when you're bias, one wrongful act is greater than another.

I don't see how its biased the MLB did nothing of significant change to help the sport the cap saved the NHL I must be a biased hockey fan.

One side is not at fault, yet ONE SIDE broke the deal? Do you even listen to yourself?
The deal was no Bettman and no Fehr and let the players and owners sit down and actually talk the players then tried to force Fehr into the meeting breaking the deal yes they broke the deal there is no arguing it.

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12-09-2012, 03:15 PM
  #234
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Bettman is also the smuggest person on the planet. He rubs players the wrong way and that in itself has caused tension between the players and owners. Given that a guy like Chelios threatens Bettman (an example among many), how can labour peace ever be accomplished when players inherently hate Bettman? And Chelios was [arguably] a franchise-face type of player.

I've read several articles about Fehr's history and tactics and generally the message is that this guy is honest to his constituents. He discloses absolutely everything and the owners will underestimate him even though his tactic is simple.
Must of just forgotten to tell the MLB owners there wasn't going to be playoffs.

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12-09-2012, 03:39 PM
  #235
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The deal was no Bettman and no Fehr and let the players and owners sit down and actually talk the players then tried to force Fehr into the meeting breaking the deal yes they broke the deal there is no arguing it.
Fehr is the players hired representative in these labour negotiations. If you seriously thought the players would have agreed to a deal without him in the room, then that's beyond naive.

The fact that the league broke off talks the second the players said they wanted Fehr back in just goes to show how they never planned on negotiating in good faith. You don't get to choose your negotiating partners; the league is going to have get over it's fear and disdain of Fehr and sit down and stop acting like a bunch of greedy and spoiled babies.

Daly's already come out and said contracting rights are 'the hill the leagues ready to die on.' So you can stop pretending they'll readily come down on their hard line stance.

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12-09-2012, 03:40 PM
  #236
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The deal was no Bettman and no Fehr and let the players and owners sit down and actually talk the players then tried to force Fehr into the meeting breaking the deal yes they broke the deal there is no arguing it.
I just argued it...

The players put together an offer.... Jacobs threatened to leave the second day of player-owner negotiations that didn't include Fehr....

Again, who broke the deal? I didn't see the owners accept the offer.

Quite pretending like you not defending one side.

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During the 94 season there was no cba so Fehr suggested they play the year under the old cba (sound familiar he tried that this time too) in good faith of course then just before the playoffs (where owner's make the most profit) he called a strike ending the season and showing he is not to be trusted.
Again, source? Phrases like "good faith" sounds like an opinion or a poor way of characterizing negotiations.

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The owners wanted to negotiate a year before the cba ran out Fehr wanted to wait until summer and then he took 2 months to actually start the negotiations. The players sealed there own fate by waiting so long to start a negotiations.
You try coming into a multibillion dollar business in the middle of an audit with absolutely no background in the business and enter a negotiation right away. Or maybe you'll want to do your homework first.

But what, no sympathy?

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I don't see how its biased the MLB did nothing of significant change to help the sport the cap saved the NHL I must be a biased hockey fan.
I'd argue otherwise. It's widely accepted that increased revenue sharing among owners would help the NHL, as it did with MLB.

Oh wait, didn't Fehr have a hand in that?


Last edited by MarkGio: 12-09-2012 at 03:46 PM.
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12-09-2012, 03:45 PM
  #237
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I just argued it...

The players put together an offer....

Jacobs threatened to leave the second day of player-owner negotiations that didn't include Fehr....

Again, who broke the deal? I didn't see the owners accept the offer? Quite pretending like you not defending one side.



Again, source? Phrases like "good faith" sounds like an opinion.



You try coming into a multibillion dollar business in the middle of an audit with absolutely no background in the business and enter a negotiation right away. Or maybe you'll want to do your homework first.

But what, no sympathy?



I'd argue otherwise. It's widely accepted that increased revenue sharing among owners would help the NHL, as it did with MLB.

Oh wait, didn't Fehr have a hand in that?
The offer in question is a joke when it comes to cap hit. The owners would never accept that.

The players never asked to see any of the books before hand they said no to negations immediately no talking about, if they wanted to do their homework they could have atleast asked.

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12-09-2012, 03:49 PM
  #238
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Fehr is the players hired representative in these labour negotiations. If you seriously thought the players would have agreed to a deal without him in the room, then that's beyond naive.

The fact that the league broke off talks the second the players said they wanted Fehr back in just goes to show how they never planned on negotiating in good faith. You don't get to choose your negotiating partners; the league is going to have get over it's fear and disdain of Fehr and sit down and stop acting like a bunch of greedy and spoiled babies.

Daly's already come out and said contracting rights are 'the hill the leagues ready to die on.' So you can stop pretending they'll readily come down on their hard line stance.

The league didn't have their hired representative, why can't the players talk for them selves about what they want? The owner's feel that they are already giving more than any other major league is good luck getting anymore out of them.

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12-09-2012, 03:51 PM
  #239
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Must of just forgotten to tell the MLB owners there wasn't going to be playoffs.
Taken out of context. He discloses everything to his constituents.

Neverless, you're insuating that he lied to the MLB owners. Seriously, If the MLB owners started their 100th or whatever season and still didn't know the players are capable of striking during which, they're too stupid to have playoffs.

What, Fehr introduced the concept of a strike all of a sudden?

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12-09-2012, 03:55 PM
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The offer in question is a joke when it comes to cap hit. The owners would never accept that.
Oh I see. And all of the owner's offers up to this point has been hunky dory.

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The players never asked to see any of the books before hand they said no to negations immediately no talking about, if they wanted to do their homework they could have atleast asked.
They couldn't. I understand they were only eligble to conduct an audit during the last year of the CBA.

Why would Bettman allow that in the last CBA? Perhaps he planned on starting negotiations during the only year the players were allowed to audit.

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12-09-2012, 03:55 PM
  #241
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Taken out of context. He discloses everything to his constituents.

Neverless, you're insuating that he lied to the MLB owners. Seriously, If the MLB owners started their 100th or whatever season and still didn't know the players are capable of striking during which, they're too stupid to have playoffs.

What, Fehr introduced the concept of a strike all of a sudden?
So you think that saying a) We will play this season under the old CBA and negotiate a new CBA and then b) Striking in the middle of the season after saying you would play the season, isn't going against what he originally said? You called me biased but it seems like you too have a heavy bias if you believe that.

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12-09-2012, 03:57 PM
  #242
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The league didn't have their hired representative, why can't the players talk for them selves about what they want? The owner's feel that they are already giving more than any other major league is good luck getting anymore out of them.
What do the Owners do for a living? Oh that's right, negotiate business deals. Whereas the players wack a rubber disk with a wooden stick like a caveman.

But tell me these billionaires are too ethical to take advantage of someone.

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12-09-2012, 03:58 PM
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So you think that saying a) We will play this season under the old CBA and negotiate a new CBA and then b) Striking in the middle of the season after saying you would play the season, isn't going against what he originally said? You called me biased but it seems like you too have a heavy bias if you believe that.
I simply asked for a source...

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12-09-2012, 04:00 PM
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Oh I see. And all of the owner's offers up to this point has been hunky dory.



They couldn't. I understand they were only eligble to conduct an audit during the last year of the CBA.

Why would Bettman allow that in the last CBA? Perhaps he planned on starting negotiations during the only year the players were allowed to audit.
Valid question I don't like it but the players choose not to take the steps to negotiate on time.

No but allowing a contract of 12,12,12,3,3 is a terrible offer.

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12-09-2012, 04:01 PM
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The league didn't have their hired representative, why can't the players talk for them selves about what they want? The owner's feel that they are already giving more than any other major league is good luck getting anymore out of them.
If you think the players were going to sign off on a multi-billion dollar deal against six billionaire business men without their hired representative, the expert in labour negotiations, then I don't know what to say.

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12-09-2012, 04:06 PM
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If you think the players were going to sign off on a multi-billion dollar deal against six billionaire business men without their hired representative, the expert in labour negotiations, then I don't know what to say.
They weren't done negotiating on all topics, considering how much the players mouth off the media about the process it sounds like they know whats going on I guess maybe they don't? Obviously they would want to Fehr to look over the deal but he doesn't have to be in the room with the owners to do it.

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12-09-2012, 04:14 PM
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I simply asked for a source...
On what the strike? It is well known. The CBA running out in 93 again well known. What do you need a source of?

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12-09-2012, 05:02 PM
  #248
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Valid question I don't like it but the players choose not to take the steps to negotiate on time.

No but allowing a contract of 12,12,12,3,3 is a terrible offer.
When did the very first offer arrive, regardless who provided it?

So when did negotiations formally start?

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12-09-2012, 05:10 PM
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
When did the very first offer arrive, regardless who provided it?

So when did negotiations formally start?
It's hard to have a first offer if one side refuses to meet all spring and all summer to talk about the issues... which the PA did.

I think Fehr and his player reps have been prepared to go to war and lose the season from the beginning if they had to, but I don't think the majority of the players were ever completely on their side and it's start to show:

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...adler-reports/

The hardliners and player reps have had their fun, I think the pressure from Joe Player is going to result in a deal before Christmas.

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12-09-2012, 05:12 PM
  #250
TheHudlinator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
When did the very first offer arrive, regardless who provided it?

So when did negotiations formally start?
The PA said they wanted to wait until the season was over then the did not meet with the owners for 2 months it was the players that delayed things there isn't much of an argument otherwise.

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