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Successful teams that might lose fans/money if they struggle on the ice too long

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Old
12-09-2012, 04:04 PM
  #51
Melrose Munch
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Originally Posted by Angelus View Post
Show me where I mentioned Toronto or even debated that Edmonton was a better market? Way to take my post out of context, I meant Edmonton should be considered a top-tier market that sells out every game regardless of the product on the ice. They've just proven that, I don't care about the mid-90s.
No they've proven when the dollar is good so is small market canada.

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12-09-2012, 04:17 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by RandV View Post
Yes let's paint the entire picture:

86-87 10406 (franchise lowpoint)
87-88 11002
88-89 13772
89-90 15417
90-91 15150
91-92 15768
92-93 15418
93-94 15140
94-95 13920
95-96 17796 (moved to the larger GM place)
96-97 17320
97-98 16957
98-99 15802
99-00 14641
00-01 17026
01-02 17712
02-03 18396
03-04 18630
04+ Sellout streak ongoing

If I went farther back the attendance was actually quite good in the 70's, it was through the 80's that things went south, and even when things were going good in the early 90's this generation of fans couldn't sell out on a consistent basis.

Like someone else said a lot of the current success is a new generation of fans that now have the disposable income to buy tickets. In my opinion the generation gap is significant, largely due to the increased exposure of the game. Consider what the ones with disposable income through the 80's-90's didn't have:

- Constant broadcasts
- hockey video games
- instant hockey news and discussion through the internet

I'm old enough to remember a time when not every game was televised, but young enough to have filled that gap playing the old EA sports games on Genesis/SNES. The generation before me hockey was essential Hockey Night in Canada, The Hockey News, and call in radio shows. Now you have every game televised, instant connection to news and discussion, and video games to help get the kids hooked and/or learn about the league and it's players.

With Canada being so focused on hockey this will give any of our NHL cities a huge defense boost against a bad team ratings plummet. American teams will have a tougher time because if the local hockey team declines they always have Football/Basketball/Baseball to turn to.
There were hockey video games in the 90's. I remember owning several of them.

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12-09-2012, 04:21 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
I believe there are only three teams that can succeed financially in the face of a decade of failure. Toronto, Montreal, and NYR. Edmonton's recent run might suggest that given the current valuation of the canadian dollar, any other canadian team might be able to survive as well (assuming they cut payroll accordingly as edmonton has done), but i believe that to be temporary as i dont see the canadian dollar maintaining it's current valuation long-term.
I don't really agree.

Vancouver, Edmonton, and calagary will support losing as long as they have a future to hope for which the cap provides. When they can't be competitive due to salary then the fans will stop supporting the team if it perpetually loses a few years.

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12-09-2012, 04:23 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
...but the best fans according to Forbes
The problem with Pittsburgh was not just a lack of success on the ice. The problem with Pittsburgh is the utter incompetence and corruption of the senior management and the ownership during the period of futility and the years leading up to it. Fans see that as a no-hope combination and just stop giving a damn. This in turn makes the team more unstable and causes an ever vicious downward cycle of newly apathetic fans. It remains to be seen if the Penguins have done enough to break this cycle when things start going south on the ice again, as it inevitably does for pretty well any team.

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12-09-2012, 04:24 PM
  #55
Melrose Munch
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Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
I don't really agree.

Vancouver, Edmonton, and calagary will support losing as long as they have a future to hope for which the cap provides. When they can't be competitive due to salary then the fans will stop supporting the team if it perpetually loses a few years.
So they won't unless the rules are suited to them. He's right then.

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12-09-2012, 04:24 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
I don't really agree.

Vancouver, Edmonton, and calagary will support losing as long as they have a future to hope for which the cap provides. When they can't be competitive due to salary then the fans will stop supporting the team if it perpetually loses a few years.
One thing I have to say, with the likes of players like RNH, it has become a gamble for which team would win. If it's Vancouver or Edmonton. That's what I noticed over the last couple years.

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12-09-2012, 05:07 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by stuffradio View Post
There were hockey video games in the 90's. I remember owning several of them.
Of course, from Ice Hockey to Blades of steal to NHLPA to NHL 93 and so on. The point is these were mostly being played by kids and teens and to a lesser extent into college, and generally not by the adults who would be the ones actually paying for live NHL tickets.

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Old
12-09-2012, 05:24 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Angelus View Post
Edmonton just drafted 1st overall for three straight years and missed the playoffs for the last six and still sell out every game.

I know you're just itching to bring up our drop in attendance in the mid 90s but that's irrelevant now.
Well, you would be wrong. I'm not "itching" to do a damn thing; I let history speak, and I only step in when basic facts are ignored.

The simple fact is that, since 1980, the only teams that have proven to be impervious to seemingly everything are Philadelphia, NY Rangers, Montreal, and Toronto. Quebec up through 1995 also fits the bill, but the picture is obviously incomplete. If we'd stopped counting leaguewide at 1995, Edmonton would be in that boat too...alas, they are not.

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12-09-2012, 05:27 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Well, you would be wrong. I'm not "itching" to do a damn thing; I let history speak, and I only step in when basic facts are ignored.

The simple fact is that, since 1980, the only teams that have proven to be impervious to seemingly everything are Philadelphia, NY Rangers, Montreal, and Toronto. Quebec up through 1995 also fits the bill, but the picture is obviously incomplete. If we'd stopped counting leaguewide at 1995, Edmonton would be in that boat too...alas, they are not.
That's all really. Quebec was actually doing good despite their problems.

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12-09-2012, 06:33 PM
  #60
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As a life long Boston resident I have come to terms that the majority of sports fans in New England are fair weather. The Bruins have struggled in the past to fill their stadium, maintain reasonable TV numbers and support a valid fan base during down times. Add on to that the Patriots, Red Sox and Celtics still being 1,2,3 and most house holds and the Bruins can/will struggle with fans and money during periods of little to no on ice success.

There has been a big growth of Bruins support due to the Cup run amungst New England sports fan who are not crazy about hockey and unfortunalty a full year lock out would kill that support. Which is why I am confused as to why Jacobs isn't pushing harder to end the lockout. He has as much if not more to lose than any other owner in the league.

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12-09-2012, 06:42 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
I am confused as to why Jacobs isn't pushing harder to end the lockout...
Hubris perhaps. He like many of his kindred simply take the fans
for granted. That they'll be back. Like addicts looking for their fix.

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12-09-2012, 06:47 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Every team except Toronto and Montreal, and that's not necessarily a positive thing for those fanbases. There should be negative consequences if a team fails to put a competitive product on the ice or is just generally managerially incompetent.

If any team other than those two had protracted periods of terrible play or had Bill Wirtz as an owner, attendance and revenues would dip in very big ways, on both sides of the border.

Even the Rangers.

Only possible exception would be Winnipeg, and that's only because they still have a new team smell and their fanbase is so deliriously happy to finally have a team back that they'd accept anything. Probably won't be like that in a decade, though.
The Rangers? They didn't win a Cup in 54 years and they sold out. They also missed the playoffs in the late 90s/early 2000s and they sold out. Don't try to lump us with Chicago.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support that claim on the Rangers? Didn't think so.

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12-09-2012, 06:52 PM
  #63
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If Rangers ownership had kicked the Rangers fan base in the teeth as many times as Bill Wirtz did the Blackhawks fan base, they might have struggled to fill the building as well.

The Blackhawks problems had nothing to do with the market. It had everything to do with Wirtz indicating that he didn't give a damn about the team.

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12-09-2012, 06:56 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
As a life long Boston resident I have come to terms that the majority of sports fans in New England are fair weather. The Bruins have struggled in the past to fill their stadium, maintain reasonable TV numbers and support a valid fan base during down times. Add on to that the Patriots, Red Sox and Celtics still being 1,2,3 and most house holds and the Bruins can/will struggle with fans and money during periods of little to no on ice success.

There has been a big growth of Bruins support due to the Cup run amungst New England sports fan who are not crazy about hockey and unfortunalty a full year lock out would kill that support. Which is why I am confused as to why Jacobs isn't pushing harder to end the lockout. He has as much if not more to lose than any other owner in the league.
The patriots were number 4 in that markert prior to Parcells coming through. Boston has always been about baseball and Basketball and Hockey can be number 3. The pats will be just another team when Brady goes, Packers 49ers Cowboys Bears Steelers Browns or Giants they are not.

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12-09-2012, 06:56 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
If Rangers ownership had kicked the Rangers fan base in the teeth as many times as Bill Wirtz did the Blackhawks fan base, they might have struggled to fill the building as well.

The Blackhawks problems had nothing to do with the market. It had everything to do with Wirtz indicating that he didn't give a damn about the team.
Yeah, they might have, but they didn't do bad attendance-wise in over a half century, and nothing in their recent history shows that they would. Just like Melrose Munch said below, Dolan was awful. The Rangers sold out.


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12-09-2012, 06:56 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
If Rangers ownership had kicked the Rangers fan base in the teeth as many times as Bill Wirtz did the Blackhawks fan base, they might have struggled to fill the building as well.

The Blackhawks problems had nothing to do with the market. It had everything to do with Wirtz indicating that he didn't give a damn about the team.
Dolan was awful from 1997 to the lockout though.

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12-09-2012, 06:59 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by wKetch22 View Post
Pittsburgh
I agree with Pittsburgh. Big hockey town but not a ton of people and less every day.

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12-09-2012, 07:03 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by RC24 View Post
C A P S, Caps, Caps, Caps!

I waited until Dec 1st, but I canceled my season tickets. I have only been a holder for 3 years, but there will never be a fourth.

If the Skins and Nats continue to be exciting and successful with RGIII, Strasburg, Harper, winning games, etc., the Caps are done in DC.

Figuratively of course.

I think they have reached the maximum amount they can charge for tickets in DC. The teams boring play last year certainly didn't help things with retaining fans. I can see attendance dropping. I stopped going to games at prices they were charging and went to 15 Orioles games instead last year...up from my usual 1.

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12-09-2012, 07:41 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
The patriots were number 4 in that markert prior to Parcells coming through. Boston has always been about baseball and Basketball and Hockey can be number 3. The pats will be just another team when Brady goes, Packers 49ers Cowboys Bears Steelers Browns or Giants they are not.
Haha, you mean before the Kraft family bought the team right? The franchise will always be first class as long as the Krafts own the Patriots. The Pats are # 1 in New England and have been for a long time and they will continue to be # 1 as long as the Krafts own the team.

Since Kraft bought the team no franchise has more wins than the patriots to go along with 5 Super Bowl appearances and 3 Super Bowl wins. He has also turned the franchise into one of the most profitable in ALL of professional sports.

Funny you mention the 49ers who turned around their franchise with a new owner, coach and QB in the early 80's yet didn't turn into just another team when two out of the three left. And the Steelers, also not just another team by your standards, yet they were basement dwellers for the first 40 years of the franchise's existence until Chuck Knoll, Terry Bradshaw and a dominating defense turned around the franchise in the early 70's.


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12-09-2012, 08:15 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
Haha, you mean before the Kraft family bought the team right? The franchise will always be first class as long as the Krafts own the Patriots. The Pats are # 1 in New England and have been for a long time and they will continue to be # 1 as long as the Krafts own the team.

Since Kraft bought the team no franchise has more wins than the patriots to go along with 5 Super Bowl appearances and 3 Super Bowl wins. He has also turned the franchise into one of the most profitable in ALL of professional sports.

Funny you mention the 49ers who turned around their franchise with a new owner, coach and QB in the early 80's yet didn't turn into just another team when two out of the three left. And the Steelers, also not just another team by your standards, yet they were basement dwellers for the first 40 years of the franchise's existence until Chuck Knoll, Terry Bradshaw and a dominating defense turned around the franchise in the early 70's.
I'm not dissing the Pats. Yeah I mean Kraft though, I'm just saying Boston is not a football town at all, so the Bruins won't exactly fall off the map. To be fair though the 49ers have done nothing since 1995 so...

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12-09-2012, 08:23 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
I'm not dissing the Pats. Yeah I mean Kraft though, I'm just saying Boston is not a football town at all, so the Bruins won't exactly fall off the map. To be fair though the 49ers have done nothing since 1995 so...
Agree to disagree. I saw the Bruins fall of the map in the late 90's early 2000's as well as coming out of the lockout. During both time periods I routinely purchased 10 dollar tickets at the window minutes before the puck drop. As far as Boston not being a "football town" I think the 10+ year wait list on Patriots season tickets would disagree. Pink hat nation has killed off many of the old time Sox fans and fact is the glory days of the old Boston Garden and the hey day of the Bruins of the 70's and the Celts of the 80's is long gone. Pats rule in Boston now. When it's "cool" the masses cheer for the Sox, Celts and Bruins but everyone cheers for the Pats.


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12-09-2012, 08:38 PM
  #72
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Hubris perhaps. He like many of his kindred simply take the fans
for granted. That they'll be back. Like addicts looking for their fix.
Addiction will bring me back but in a town that has 4 major sports teams and has celebrated 7 championships over the past decade the average sports fan can simply get their fix elsewhere.

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12-09-2012, 08:56 PM
  #73
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12-09-2012, 09:08 PM
  #74
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As a life long Boston resident I have come to terms that the majority of sports fans in New England are fair weather. The Bruins have struggled in the past to fill their stadium, maintain reasonable TV numbers and support a valid fan base during down times.
Not really fair to Boston fans. This wasn't "down times." Down times imply the possibility that things will get better. This was a period when it was basically confirmed that the owner was completely apathetic to the possibility of doing what it takes to win and the management of the team was at first incompetent, and then in flux. Any franchise's fans would rebel in that environment. Even the Habs and Leafs would see at least some dip in demand, even if it wasn't enough to really put a noticeable dent in stadium attendance.

Anyway, once it was clear that the Bruins were willing to play some hockey the right way again, even while they were still pretty mediocre, the franchise started to recover quickly. Everything was back to normal by the 07-08 playoff series, especially in the wake of Game 6 of that series.

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12-09-2012, 09:13 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
Agree to disagree. I saw the Bruins fall of the map in the late 90's early 2000's as well as coming out of the lockout. During both time periods I routinely purchased 10 dollar tickets at the window minutes before the puck drop. As far as Boston not being a "football town" I think the 10+ year wait list on Patriots season tickets would disagree. Pink hat nation has killed off many of the old time Sox fans and fact is the glory days of the old Boston Garden and the hey day of the Bruins of the 70's and the Celts of the 80's is long gone. Pats rule in Boston now. When it's "cool" the masses cheer for the Sox, Celts and Bruins but everyone cheers for the Pats.
Fair enough.

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