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Oilers History: The mishandling of Jason Arnott

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12-09-2012, 04:37 PM
  #26
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Hard to say Pronger had anyone to blame but himself for his actions though. I'd be a little ticked off too if a future HHOF defenseman played just one season and had to leave because of what has always been reported as his wife being upset about his infidelity in that city.
no one blames the city. just that if it were new york or LA or even vancouver, word may not have gotten back to lauren pronger. fishbowl effect and everybody talking in edmonton likely was a factor. comrie too. one incident involved a local reporter, the other was a kid with deep local ties who literally grew up before that city's eyes and whose dad ran the city.

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12-09-2012, 04:37 PM
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Wasnt he holding out too for a while? I remember NJ had troubles back then with key players holding out. I think Arnott and Nieds did at the same tiem and then Elias did it too but he blamed it on Sutter (which has some merit).
Elias had a short holdout at the beginning of the 1998-99 season, but he caved. For much of the duck puck era, Elias was one of the most underpaid players in the league, relative to other players.

Arnott and Niedermayer both held out for about the first 1/4 of the 2000-01 season right after winning the Cup, but after both got paid, they both played well for the rest of the season.

I can see Lou holding a bit of a grudge in a "you got your money now, you better play hard" sort of way. But it really was a case of Arnott no longer throwing his size around in 2001-02 that was the main reason he got shipped out.

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12-09-2012, 04:43 PM
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Elias had a short holdout at the beginning of the 1998-99 season, but he caved. For much of the duck puck era, Elias was one of the most underpaid players in the league, relative to other players.

Arnott and Niedermayer both held out for about the first 1/4 of the 2000-01 season right after winning the Cup, but after both got paid, they both played well for the rest of the season.

I can see Lou holding a bit of a grudge in a "you got your money now, you better play hard" sort of way. But it really was a case of Arnott no longer throwing his size around in 2001-02 that was the main reason he got shipped out.
Ah it was that long before the '02 season. I just re-read some old swedish hockey magazines thats why I remember. One had a big story about Elias and painted Sutter in some very bad and biggotary colours. Something I missed or forgot about since then.

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12-09-2012, 04:48 PM
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no one blames the city. just that if it were new york or LA or even vancouver, word may not have gotten back to lauren pronger. fishbowl effect and everybody talking in edmonton likely was a factor. comrie too. one incident involved a local reporter, the other was a kid with deep local ties who literally grew up before that city's eyes and whose dad ran the city.
Well you never know. This was 2005-'06. Social media is starting to explode at this time (if that was a factor). This isn't the 1950s when Mickey Mantle was going all over town knowing it wouldn't get back to his wife, Merlyn. I don't know, I don't live in Edmonton, I live near Toronto and if Mats Sundin bought a toothbrush down the street everyone knew about it so the media here is as powerful as I've ever seen it. Look at Tie Domi and his indiscretions. It was pretty big news then. His wife bled him dry after that. I don't think the city matters. Maybe in New York with upwards of 10 million people, but then again if Michael Douglas got caught in that city in Fatal Attraction.............

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12-09-2012, 05:01 PM
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Ah it was that long before the '02 season. I just re-read some old swedish hockey magazines thats why I remember. One had a big story about Elias and painted Sutter in some very bad and biggotary colours. Something I missed or forgot about since then.
Sutter's first move as head coach was to tell the media that he stripped Elias of his captaincy. Elias found out through the media.

It was a bush-league move by a bush-league coach and as much as I love Jarome Iginla, I'm happy that Sutter has found nothing but failure in Calgary.

And yes, there was definitely speculation among Devils fans that Sutter did not like European players and his treatment of Elias (who was basically a coach's dream before and after Sutter) was a part of it.

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12-09-2012, 05:05 PM
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Sutter's first move as head coach was to tell the media that he stripped Elias of his captaincy. Elias found out through the media.

It was a bush-league move by a bush-league coach and as much as I love Jarome Iginla, I'm happy that Sutter has found nothing but failure in Calgary.

And yes, there was definitely speculation among Devils fans that Sutter did not like European players and his treatment of Elias (who was basically a coach's dream before and after Sutter) was a part of it.
Sutter told Hasek that "only canadians knew how to win hockey games" and were hinting at that there were more to the story. Wish they couldve made a bigger story about that story instead.

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12-09-2012, 05:07 PM
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Sutter told Hasek that "only canadians knew how to win hockey games" and were hinting at that there were more to the story. Wish they couldve made a bigger story about that story instead.
When did he tell Hasek that?

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12-09-2012, 05:10 PM
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When did he tell Hasek that?
When Hasek was in chicago iirc.

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12-09-2012, 05:16 PM
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Why have I always thought that u were from Boston?
I like the Bruins and Blackhawks, so I could see people thinking I'm from either of those towns. But I've been in or near Edmonton my whole life.

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12-09-2012, 05:26 PM
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When Hasek was in chicago iirc.
If this is true, we are talking over 20 years ago here. Canada was winning everything under the sun at that time and Europeans weren't generally known as winners in the NHL at that time. I think you have to take that into context, especially at that time. Heck, I've heard Theo Fleury say that if it were up to him he'd want a team of Canadians over anyone else because of their desire to win. Sutter was a competitive guy, as a player I could understand him saying that, especially at a time when there was a little more "us vs. them" way of thinking.

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12-09-2012, 06:15 PM
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If this is true, we are talking over 20 years ago here. Canada was winning everything under the sun at that time and Europeans weren't generally known as winners in the NHL at that time. I think you have to take that into context, especially at that time. Heck, I've heard Theo Fleury say that if it were up to him he'd want a team of Canadians over anyone else because of their desire to win. Sutter was a competitive guy, as a player I could understand him saying that, especially at a time when there was a little more "us vs. them" way of thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasek
No european was good enough for him. He kept going on and on about that is was only himself, a real canadian, who really worked hard. Thar everyone else didnt care as much as him and europeans didnt care at all. He treated me like an enemy. I didnt understand everything back then (language barrier) but I felt that he loved to make cruel jokes about me.
That is the exact quote.

Edit: Reall killer canadian instinct there. Bullying your own goalie.

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12-09-2012, 06:16 PM
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If this is true, we are talking over 20 years ago here. Canada was winning everything under the sun at that time and Europeans weren't generally known as winners in the NHL at that time. I think you have to take that into context, especially at that time. Heck, I've heard Theo Fleury say that if it were up to him he'd want a team of Canadians over anyone else because of their desire to win. Sutter was a competitive guy, as a player I could understand him saying that, especially at a time when there was a little more "us vs. them" way of thinking.
the weird thing is that it's brent sutter, who won cups with persson, jonsson, and especially kallur who was as competitive as anyone.

but yeah, a lot of sutters in hasek's first NA landing spot, on top of having to break in with belfour winning vezinas and jimmy waite getting every benefit of the doubt.

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Well you never know. This was 2005-'06. Social media is starting to explode at this time (if that was a factor). This isn't the 1950s when Mickey Mantle was going all over town knowing it wouldn't get back to his wife, Merlyn. I don't know, I don't live in Edmonton, I live near Toronto and if Mats Sundin bought a toothbrush down the street everyone knew about it so the media here is as powerful as I've ever seen it. Look at Tie Domi and his indiscretions. It was pretty big news then. His wife bled him dry after that. I don't think the city matters. Maybe in New York with upwards of 10 million people, but then again if Michael Douglas got caught in that city in Fatal Attraction.............
you could be right. i have no idea how word got out about pronger's and comrie's infidelities. i will say though that if you compare edmonton to even calgary, what fleury was doing was kept from the headlines for years and years, even though it was by many accounts an open secret and widely known among those covering the team. whereas the alleged oilers cocaine problem was big big news.

with the domi/stronach situation, i thought toronto (where i lived a couple years ago, but for only one year) was a lot like vancouver. players get scrutinized, recognized everywhere, and all that. but in terms of personal lives and infelicities, it has to be a high profile scandal involving someone else firmly in the public eye (domi) or something completely team-dividing (jeff brown, though i guess comrie was that too), i.e., not nearly on the scale as arnott fathering an illegitimate child. a cultural difference, i think, between edmonton and toronto, vancouver, calgary, and montreal.

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12-09-2012, 06:28 PM
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you could be right. i have no idea how word got out about pronger's and comrie's infidelities. i will say though that if you compare edmonton to even calgary, what fleury was doing was kept from the headlines for years and years, even though it was by many accounts an open secret and widely known among those covering the team. whereas the alleged oilers cocaine problem was big big news.
With regards to Comrie and Pronger, when no official reason is stated, the public can run wild with rumours. A few people close to the team know the real reasons these guys had to leave town, but they're the only ones. So this wasn't even a "scandal" like you see in other cities, it's all just speculation. To this day, there remains a dozen different stories as to what happened with Comrie and Pronger, and not really any proof that any of them is the real truth.

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12-09-2012, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
the weird thing is that it's brent sutter, who won cups with persson, jonsson, and especially kallur who was as competitive as anyone.

but yeah, a lot of sutters in hasek's first NA landing spot, on top of having to break in with belfour winning vezinas and jimmy waite getting every benefit of the doubt.
Hey, maybe the guy was a jerk to Hasek. Who knows? But the blow is softened a bit since it is coming from Brent Sutter who at least put his money where is mouth was when it came to heart. I remember very vividly the opinion many of us had with Hasek early on. Look at the 1997 playoffs. He was hurt and a reporter questioned his integrity and Hasek lost it on him. Throw in the fact that he was a perennial diver and I could understand how someone like Brent Sutter might react to him.

Quote:
you could be right. i have no idea how word got out about pronger's and comrie's infidelities. i will say though that if you compare edmonton to even calgary, what fleury was doing was kept from the headlines for years and years, even though it was by many accounts an open secret and widely known among those covering the team. whereas the alleged oilers cocaine problem was big big news.

with the domi/stronach situation, i thought toronto (where i lived a couple years ago, but for only one year) was a lot like vancouver. players get scrutinized, recognized everywhere, and all that. but in terms of personal lives and infelicities, it has to be a high profile scandal involving someone else firmly in the public eye (domi) or something completely team-dividing (jeff brown, though i guess comrie was that too), i.e., not nearly on the scale as arnott fathering an illegitimate child. a cultural difference, i think, between edmonton and toronto, vancouver, calgary, and montreal.
Honestly, I don't see how Calgary is any different culturally than Edmonton. Both staunch conservative cities, midwestern values, etc. I guess Fleury was more of a guy (like say Mickey Mantle) where the media would want to protect him in a way. But how different can Edmonton and Calgary really be considering they are cut from the same cloth and 3 hours apart? I think it might have more to do with the fact that Pronger and Comrie were never exactly players who won the hearts of the city, much like Fleury in Calgary

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12-09-2012, 07:44 PM
  #40
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Hey, maybe the guy was a jerk to Hasek. Who knows? But the blow is softened a bit since it is coming from Brent Sutter who at least put his money where is mouth was when it came to heart. I remember very vividly the opinion many of us had with Hasek early on. Look at the 1997 playoffs. He was hurt and a reporter questioned his integrity and Hasek lost it on him. Throw in the fact that he was a perennial diver and I could understand how someone like Brent Sutter might react to him.
and 20 years later he's at it again but this time its Elias. Face it, the man is a racist. No question about it. There is no excuse for bullying your own teammate because of ethnicity. No matter how much money uve put where your mouth is. Bunch of Don Cherry excuses.

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12-09-2012, 08:41 PM
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Honestly, I don't see how Calgary is any different culturally than Edmonton. Both staunch conservative cities, midwestern values, etc. I guess Fleury was more of a guy (like say Mickey Mantle) where the media would want to protect him in a way. But how different can Edmonton and Calgary really be considering they are cut from the same cloth and 3 hours apart? I think it might have more to do with the fact that Pronger and Comrie were never exactly players who won the hearts of the city, much like Fleury in Calgary
i'll leave it to people who live in those cities to speak for themselves. but my guess is that both calgarians and edmontonians would object to you classifying them as culturally similar.

i would also guess that those out west would respond by calling you a typical toronto attitude, painting everything west of mississauga with broad stereotypes. (i think that probably came out aggressively, but i mean it as good natured ribbing and an acknowledgement that we also unfairly stereotype torontonians.)

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12-09-2012, 11:06 PM
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i'll leave it to people who live in those cities to speak for themselves. but my guess is that both calgarians and edmontonians would object to you classifying them as culturally similar.

i would also guess that those out west would respond by calling you a typical toronto attitude, painting everything west of mississauga with broad stereotypes. (i think that probably came out aggressively, but i mean it as good natured ribbing and an acknowledgement that we also unfairly stereotype torontonians.)
To be fair, Torontonians are one of a few types of people that you CAN stereotype accurately. I won't lie.

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and 20 years later he's at it again but this time its Elias. Face it, the man is a racist. No question about it. There is no excuse for bullying your own teammate because of ethnicity. No matter how much money uve put where your mouth is. Bunch of Don Cherry excuses.
I think it is important to hear each side of the story first, don't you? I mean I'm a huge hockey fan and this is the first I ever heard of this from Sutter. He isn't exactly an ex-teammate people speak ill about.

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12-09-2012, 11:13 PM
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I think it is important to hear each side of the story first, don't you? I mean I'm a huge hockey fan and this is the first I ever heard of this from Sutter. He isn't exactly an ex-teammate people speak ill about.
When Sutter was Devils coach, he had to answer questions from the media as to whether he was anti-European. He denied it of course:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Everson
With his world-wide prospects officially opening their bids for Devils jobs yesterday, coach Brent Sutter denied suggestions he leans toward North American players and away from Europeans.

"That's nonsense. That's not true," Sutter told The Post. "Decisions are made on players. It doesn't matter where they're from.

"It has zero to do with it. I look at the team. It doesn't matter what nationality they are. It's not true."

The whispers began when Sutter immediately stripped Patrik Elias of the captaincy last season, and grew louder when Karel Rachunek and Vitaly Vishnevski became afterthoughts on a so-so defense.

When Sergei Brylin left the team after 13 years to play in Russia, he suggested that the way he was used by Sutter was part of the reason for his departure.

Besides Elias, the Devils have Dainius Zubrus and Johnny Oduya as returning Europeans, while Bobby Holik was a summer signing, and Nicklas Bergfors, Petr Vrana, Fedor Fedorov and Anssi Salmela have legitimate shots at making the team.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/devil...CBF08F12E6328E

Everson is known for stirring the pot, so take that into account.

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12-20-2012, 07:18 PM
  #44
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Wasnt he holding out too for a while? I remember NJ had troubles back then with key players holding out. I think Arnott and Nieds did at the same tiem and then Elias did it too but he blamed it on Sutter (which has some merit).
Pretty much anybody who played for the Devils in the 90s seemed to have a contract holdout/dispute at some point.

As for Arnott, I distinctly recall him doing an interview segment where he opened up about the trade from Edmonton. He admitted that he was young and immature. As a result, he developed poor eating habits which affected his on ice performance.

When he was first traded to New Jersey, Arnott lived with Scott Stevens and his family. As simple as it sounds, Arnott started eating better and credited Stevens with instilling a better work ethic.

Some times we take for granted that a lot of these guys are out on their own for the first time as 19/20 year olds. Given freedom, a lot of people at that age can develop some bad habits.

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12-20-2012, 10:09 PM
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I agree he is a complimentary type of player who is decent but Primeau and a guy like Holik are probably more valuable.

I think the current need in Edmonton , and the yearning of the media in so many cities is that perfect big body #1-2 line center to build a team around but Arnott was never that guy anywhere he played IMO.
Yeah, I agree. Doesn't seem like much of a what if story, because Doug Weight was the Oilers undisputed number one centerman up until the early 2000s, while we did see what Arnott eventually became in New Jersey and Dallas.

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12-21-2012, 01:34 AM
  #46
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I'm sorry to detract from a very interesting conversation, but OP should seriously proof-read that blog more carefully. This:
Quote:
The season that the than nineteen year old was able to put together, earned him enough votes, to finish second in balloting for the Calder Trophy, behind New Jersey Devils netminder Martin Brodeur.
is writing quality that I'd expect from a teenager cribbing Wikipedia for an essay due in the next hour.

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