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How would Canada U20 do against a bottom NHL team?

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12-08-2012, 02:27 AM
  #76
KEEROLE Vatanen
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this gets asked in football all the time to.
a bad professional team will destroy any amateur team full of kids, MAYBE if Canada got an absurd goaltending performance they could win 1 or 2 out of 10 MAYBE

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12-08-2012, 05:27 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by bsmith14 View Post
This is a ridiculous question, they would get killed. If you think they would have any chance then you must be pretty uninformed about the sport of hockey. The difference is these would be 18 and 19 year olds playing grown men with a work ethic and fitness level that puts them in the top percentile.

A 19 year old Boone Jenner doesnt compare to RJ Umberger.
A 19 year old Dougie Hamilton is not as well developed as Jack Johnson.
A 19 year old Jonathon Huberdeau is not as good as a 26 year old Jeff Carter.

These players might have similar or greater upsides as pros but they are not as good right now
guess juniors wouldn,t stand even close to a chance but you don,t think juniors fitness level isn,t top shape??????????speaking the way oshawa generals work out etc!

I still don,t think there is a huge difference between American Hockey and NHL Hockey except for the superstar in the NHL, its the American Hockey league players the fill in for injured NHL players who get the call for example the Leafs will call up Kadri but I think he will make the leafs after the lock out is over in my opinion!


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12-08-2012, 05:44 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by darmitage View Post
guess juniors wouldn,t stand even close to a chance but you don,t think juniors fitness level isn,t top shape??????????speaking the way oshawa generals work out etc!
Sure it is, but top shape for a 18-19 year old is weak compared to an average 25+ NHL player. Not slightly weaker...seriously weaker. Most 18-19 year olds have just finished growing or are still in the process. Their musculature isn't consistent with that growth. Joe Thornton was 6'4" and 198 when drafted. He now weighs 235. Huge difference between gangly teen and physically developed adult.

Just look at Canada's camp roster. There aren't very many players over 200 pounds on it. Do you understand human physiology at all?

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12-08-2012, 11:48 AM
  #79
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Sure it is, but top shape for a 18-19 year old is weak compared to an average 25+ NHL player. Not slightly weaker...seriously weaker. Most 18-19 year olds have just finished growing or are still in the process. Their musculature isn't consistent with that growth. Joe Thornton was 6'4" and 198 when drafted. He now weighs 235. Huge difference between gangly teen and physically developed adult.

Just look at Canada's camp roster. There aren't very many players over 200 pounds on it. Do you understand human physiology at all?
okay I am seeing some confusion here, Junior Hockey is not American Hockey,American Hockey is pretty well NHL level!

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12-08-2012, 12:16 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Réjean Beauchemin, Winnipeg, MB. - N/A
Jeff Glass, Cochrane, AB. - N/A

Defensemen
Cam Barker, Winnipeg, MB - 1 GP 0 0 0
Shawn Belle, Edmonton, AB - N/A
Braydon Coburn, Shaunavon, SK - 9 GP 0 1 1
Dion Phaneuf, Edmonton, AB - 82 GP 20 29 49
Brent Seabrook, Tsawwassen, BC - 69 GP 5 27 32
Danny Syvret, Millgrove, ON - 10 GP 0 0 0
Shea Weber, Sicamous, BC - 28 GP 2 8 10

Forwards
*Patrice Bergeron, Ancienne-Lorette, QC - 81 GP 31 42 73
Jeff Carter, London, ON - 81 GP 23 19 42
Jeremy Colliton, Blackie, AB 19 GP 1 1 2
Sidney Crosby, Halifax, NS 81 GP 39 63 102
Nigel Dawes, Winnipeg, MB N/A
Stephen Dixon, Halifax, NS N/A
Colin Fraser, Surrey, BC N/A
Ryan Getzlaf, Regina, SK - 57 GP 14 25 39
Andrew Ladd, Maple Ridge, BC - 29 GP 6 5 11
Clarke MacArthur, Lloydminster, AB N/A
Corey Perry, Peterborough, ON - 56 GP 13 12 25
Michael Richards, Kenora, ON - 79 GP 11 23 34
Anthony Stewart, Scarborough, ON - 10 GP 2 1 3
This is probably considered the most talented U20 team of all time and if it isn't it's close. Yet 8 years later 1/3 of this roster has never really established themselves as regular NHL players. If roughly 33% of this team, even in their prime years, isn't capable of playing in the NHL (well actually currently 100% these players are unable to play in the NHL but that is a totally different issue ) I think it is easy to see why this team as a bunch of teenagers (nevermind any of other U20 team) would be destroyed.


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Old
12-08-2012, 12:17 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by darmitage View Post
okay I am seeing some confusion here, Junior Hockey is not American Hockey,American Hockey is pretty well NHL level!
No it isn't. If it was, players would be far more interchangeable between the leagues. The AHL has journeyman players who can't crack an NHL roster their whole career or might see spot duty playing fourth line minutes when the big club has a string of injuries. There are also several 19-25 year olds trying to learn the ropes of a faster paced and much stronger opponent than their junior days. Of those young guys, only a few make it to the NHL. When you look at the elite players in the NHL, most either never even play a single game in the AHL or they play 1 season or so, depending on how tough their NHL roster is to crack.

If the AHL was as comparable as you think it is, having players injured in the NHL wouldn't matter. They would be replaced by comparable AHLers, right? Why don't you go check the results of NHL teams that suffer the most man games lost each season and get back to me.

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12-08-2012, 03:08 PM
  #82
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No it isn't. If it was, players would be far more interchangeable between the leagues. The AHL has journeyman players who can't crack an NHL roster their whole career or might see spot duty playing fourth line minutes when the big club has a string of injuries. There are also several 19-25 year olds trying to learn the ropes of a faster paced and much stronger opponent than their junior days. Of those young guys, only a few make it to the NHL. When you look at the elite players in the NHL, most either never even play a single game in the AHL or they play 1 season or so, depending on how tough their NHL roster is to crack.

If the AHL was as comparable as you think it is, having players injured in the NHL wouldn't matter. They would be replaced by comparable AHLers, right? Why don't you go check the results of NHL teams that suffer the most man games lost each season and get back to me.
I guess that's going to depend on your definition of "elite", but I think the statistic is something ridiculous like 85% of all NHLers spend time in the AHL. And given the number of players who "graduate" in a given year (let's say two or three per team), that means there are at least that many players of NHL-readiness at any given time down there that we'll end up seeing in the subsequent year. Also, you haven't accounted for the probability that there are some players that are forced down there due to depth of their parent squads, who might be an "equivalent" or "upgrade" replacement somewhere else in the league.

But even more simply, the fact that professional two-way AHL/NHL contracts exist implies that the level of play can't be too far apart, and we know that they are coached/trained per the design of the parent club which implies even less adjustment compared to transitions from other leagues.

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12-08-2012, 04:11 PM
  #83
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I guess what it is when I see a good skilled talented Junior team playing another junior team the skilled team just looks good at this level! I go to a lot of junior games here Oshawa Generals(Boone Jenner) !

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12-08-2012, 04:16 PM
  #84
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Let's wait until they win the WJR's before we anoint this team as something special. Even then, as much as we want it to be, this team is not 2005.

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12-08-2012, 05:14 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I guess that's going to depend on your definition of "elite", but I think the statistic is something ridiculous like 85% of all NHLers spend time in the AHL. And given the number of players who "graduate" in a given year (let's say two or three per team), that means there are at least that many players of NHL-readiness at any given time down there that we'll end up seeing in the subsequent year. Also, you haven't accounted for the probability that there are some players that are forced down there due to depth of their parent squads, who might be an "equivalent" or "upgrade" replacement somewhere else in the league.

But even more simply, the fact that professional two-way AHL/NHL contracts exist implies that the level of play can't be too far apart, and we know that they are coached/trained per the design of the parent club which implies even less adjustment compared to transitions from other leagues.
For the part you bolded, if you take a broad range of elite status, like the top 90, or basically the best three per team, they average 53 AHL games per player. So as I said, most spend either no time in the AHL or a season or two in transition. Very few of those guys play more than 2 seasons. Please keep in mind the total of games these guys played includes the lockout year in which many of the 2003 draft class would have played in the NHL, as well as some conditioning stints coming back from injuries and this year as well.

If the stat is indeed 85%, keep in mind that includes a huge percentage of 19-21 year old players that split parts of seasons between the two leagues. These are not impact players when they are going through this phase, and they probably make up the bulk of yearly graduates. Most of these guys cannot crack the top two lines and play limited sheltered minutes as they develop.

You may be right that at any given time that there are 2-3 players on an AHL roster that have the potential to play in the NHL, but the fact is they haven't reached that potential. As for two way contracts, that isn't an indication that players are good enough to play in the NHL. It's an indication that the team thinks they are barely good enough to be in the NHL and will pay them much less if they can't make the team.

Regardless, the bulk of the rest of an AHL club will never sniff the NHL or simply get called up for spot duty due to injuries.

So, no, an AHL club could not realistically compete with an NHL one. The notion is asinine.

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12-08-2012, 07:51 PM
  #86
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Sometimes the junior team plays against CIS all stars and the games are pretty close.

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12-08-2012, 08:14 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by darmitage View Post
I guess what it is when I see a good skilled talented Junior team playing another junior team the skilled team just looks good at this level! I go to a lot of junior games here Oshawa Generals(Boone Jenner) !
Boone Jenner is a very good player. If training camp started today, he likely still wouldn't make the Jackets

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12-09-2012, 04:43 AM
  #88
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Boone Jenner is a very good player. If training camp started today, he likely still wouldn't make the Jackets
yes, Boone Jenner will be on the Jackets when the season begins at least thats what they are saying and in the Ontario League he dominates I think he is ready but he might not be a impact player for a year or 2!

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12-09-2012, 06:22 AM
  #89
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this ranks right up there with the argument of would the NCAA Division 1 Football champ (say Alabama) have a shot against the worst NFL team (say KC Chiefs). The answer is a resounding no. Not only in terms of physical play, but mainly in terms of experience & plain hockey smarts as well as coaching. There is a huge jump between major junior & the AHL, let alone the NHL. Even the lowliest team in the league would crush any Canadian U20 team with little difficulty. You just can't compare the two....

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12-09-2012, 11:27 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by darmitage View Post
yes, Boone Jenner will be on the Jackets when the season begins at least thats what they are saying and in the Ontario League he dominates I think he is ready but he might not be a impact player for a year or 2!
He may get his nine games, but he isn't good enough yet to stick. On the depth chart for centers, he ranks sixth behind Anisimov, Brassard, Johansen, Letestu, and MacKenzie. He may be tearing up the OHL, but he still needs more seasoning before he is ready for the NHL.

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12-09-2012, 12:30 PM
  #91
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To answer the original question, they'd get lit up if the bottom NHL team in question played full throttle.

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12-09-2012, 12:37 PM
  #92
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You might as well ask how'd they do against any NHL team, the gap between great NHL teams and poor NHL teams is not that great.

I would think that Canada U20 would probably get beat by most AHL teams as well. These are kids, they make mistakes like kids do.

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12-09-2012, 04:15 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by candyman82 View Post
He may get his nine games, but he isn't good enough yet to stick. On the depth chart for centers, he ranks sixth behind Anisimov, Brassard, Johansen, Letestu, and MacKenzie. He may be tearing up the OHL, but he still needs more seasoning before he is ready for the NHL.
NHL scouts say he is ready if the lock out is to end, this isn,t my opinion its coming from NHL scouting and the player rankings

but I agree with you too it wouldn,t hurt Jenner or any 18 year old to stay in juniors till at least 19 years old or even 20 and plus raise the draft age too!

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12-09-2012, 05:51 PM
  #94
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I've actually got a good one of these

Playing under international hockey rules how would Canada's 2012 WJ team fare against this lineup of NHLers:

Paul Bissonnette - John Mitchell- Shawn Thornton
Brian McGrattan - Tim Brent - George Parros
Cam Janssen - Pat Dwyer - Jared Boll
Krys Barch - Matt Ellis - Zac Rinaldo

Theo Peckham - Aaron Rome
John Scott - Aaron Johnson
Stu Bickel - Alex Sulzer

Joey MacDonald
Peter Budaj

How would have Canada's WJ team from 2005 faired against the same lineup?

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12-09-2012, 06:01 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallz View Post
I've actually got a good one of these

Playing under international hockey rules how would Canada's 2012 WJ team fare against this lineup of NHLers:

Paul Bissonnette - John Mitchell- Shawn Thornton
Brian McGrattan - Tim Brent - George Parros
Cam Janssen - Pat Dwyer - Jared Boll
Krys Barch - Matt Ellis - Zac Rinaldo

Theo Peckham - Aaron Rome
John Scott - Aaron Johnson
Stu Bickel - Alex Sulzer

Joey MacDonald
Peter Budaj

How would have Canada's WJ team from 2005 faired against the same lineup?
Before or after half the WJ team is injured ?

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12-09-2012, 06:16 PM
  #96
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They'd get the living **** kicked out of them.

OP, give your head a shake. The lowliest of veteran grinders is twice as strong as your flavor-of-the-month prospect.

If there were actual contracts up for grabs, half the Canada team wouldn't finish the game. The rest would be wise not even to get out on the ice.

There's stupid questions, then there's this one. Real-life, not fairy tales, OP. Learn the difference.
are you kidding me? these juniors would most likely piss pump the grinders. they'd skate circles around these guys

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12-09-2012, 06:26 PM
  #97
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Ignoring the huge difference in size and strength, imagine the gap in goaltending. An 18-year old goaltender is gonna get eaten alive by NHL players. O_o

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12-09-2012, 06:32 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallz View Post
I've actually got a good one of these

Playing under international hockey rules how would Canada's 2012 WJ team fare against this lineup of NHLers:

Paul Bissonnette - John Mitchell- Shawn Thornton
Brian McGrattan - Tim Brent - George Parros
Cam Janssen - Pat Dwyer - Jared Boll
Krys Barch - Matt Ellis - Zac Rinaldo

Theo Peckham - Aaron Rome
John Scott - Aaron Johnson
Stu Bickel - Alex Sulzer

Joey MacDonald
Peter Budaj

How would have Canada's WJ team from 2005 faired against the same lineup?
Oh my god they would have broken people's heads.

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12-09-2012, 06:39 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallz View Post
I've actually got a good one of these

Playing under international hockey rules how would Canada's 2012 WJ team fare against this lineup of NHLers:

Paul Bissonnette - John Mitchell- Shawn Thornton
Brian McGrattan - Tim Brent - George Parros
Cam Janssen - Pat Dwyer - Jared Boll
Krys Barch - Matt Ellis - Zac Rinaldo

Theo Peckham - Aaron Rome
John Scott - Aaron Johnson
Stu Bickel - Alex Sulzer

Joey MacDonald
Peter Budaj

How would have Canada's WJ team from 2005 faired against the same lineup?
Thornton, Janssen, Boll, McGrattan, Scott... I don't think the kids would make it out of the rink alive.

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Old
12-09-2012, 06:47 PM
  #100
Smallz
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People saying that the juniors would get demolished physically keep in mind that the game would be played under international rules

Any sort of dirty hit or fight would result in an immediate misconduct for any player

So what I was getting at is that most of those guys wouldn't be able to completely play their games and it could end up deterring them from being effective on the ice

I realize that under NHL rules the junior team wouldn't make it out of the 1st period but with international rules potentially getting these guys out of their comfort zones I think the junior team's speed and skill would be enough to at least make it close and possibly even pull out a victory

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