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12-09-2012, 03:13 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Only Zetterberg and Malkin in that list are elite, and Sharp only broke out at Grabovski's age. They aren't even all centers, so way to cheat, and you are completely ignoring the 5 other players that make up the top-6. Not to mention only mentioning cup-winners is an extremely flawed way of comparing.
They aren't all Centers when they won a cup? Well you are simply wrong. What does the other 5 players in the top 6 have to do with it when Grabo is a Center that apparently I was just told was awful as a winger just a few days ago.

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3 out of 5 of those would have won with Grabovski instead of the center listed. 5 out of 5 of those would have won with Grabovski instead of one of their top-6 players.
Really, better than Richards, Sharp and Bergeron? Don't go to the Bruins forum son. LOL

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A #2 center DOES NOT need to be the 2nd-best player on a team
Never said this, you did. But here's a newsflash for you. Good players in this case let's say Kessel need support from the other top 6 players. Crosby could not win the cup alone, nor did Lemieux(he had Ron Francis)


Last edited by ULF_55: 12-09-2012 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Flaming and on the edge.
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12-09-2012, 03:15 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I have, you just continue to ignore it, I have the list of top #1C and #2C's the past 10 years. Do your homework, I may post them again just to see how you try to explain away how Grabo matches up to these Stanley Cup finalist Centers. Until then, I guess we can keep saying Grabo is a great #2C that would make a cup winning team despite there being overwhelming evidence that says this just isn't so.
How do you know that he wouldn't rise to the occasion when we get to the playoffs?

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12-09-2012, 03:19 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Before I go any further with you, do you think the last 5 Stanley Cup winning teams could have won the cup without their their #2C?

To make it easier for you since you might not know who they are they were, these guys aren't elite?:

Henrik Zetterberg
Evgeni Malkin
Patrick Sharp
Patrice Bergeron
Mike Richards
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Only Zetterberg and Malkin in that list are elite, and Sharp only broke out at Grabovski's age. They aren't even all centers, so way to cheat, and you are completely ignoring the 5 other players that make up the top-6. Not to mention only mentioning cup-winners is an extremely flawed way of comparing.

3 out of 5 of those would have won with Grabovski instead of the center listed. 5 out of 5 of those would have won with Grabovski instead of one of their top-6 players, and that is really the only point that matters.

A #2 center DOES NOT need to be the 2nd-best player on a team. He just has to be one of the 6-best forwards.
Zetterberg and Malkin are the only 2 elite players on that list.

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12-09-2012, 03:21 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
How do you know that he wouldn't rise to the occasion when we get to the playoffs?
Again, the logic escapes you guys.

Who is he going to replace as the 2C? When you have better players at the #2C as I have illustrated, how is he going to get in the lineup?

It's incumbent on the Grabo enablers to prove he would lol rise to the occasion.

Grabo has not been part of the playoffs since 06-07 in the AHL.

Far more Good players make the playoffs, than good one's don't. Grabo is a mediocre player that cashed in playing on a bad team with Kule and Mac, once this team gets deeper, he will be moved off the roster. It's part of the process, talent improves, baggage is removed. Wins will follow.

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12-09-2012, 03:26 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Zetterberg and Malkin are the only 2 elite players on that list.
Elite can mean many things, Kings would not have won the cup without Richards last year. Or is it coincidental that Kopitar and the Kings didn't prior to Mike being traded out west?

Richards is an elite fwd, he may not be a Semin stats player, but he wins at almost every level. Intangibles.

Bob Gainey wouldn't be termed an elite player but he was to me, doubt the Canadiens win as many cups as they did without him. We can talk semantics but Richards and Gainey were elite players through leadership, value as in 2 way play, and grit.

The Russians used to call Gainey the perfect hockey player, they didn't say this for Lafleur or Shutt.

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12-09-2012, 03:29 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
They aren't all Centers when they won a cup? Well you are simply wrong. What does the other 5 players in the top 6 have to do with it when Grabo is a Center that apparently I was just told was awful as a winger just a few days ago.
They weren't all #2 centers.

Of course the 5 other players make a difference. It is idiotic to think otherwise. If some of the other 5 are better than their comparables, then Grabovski doesn't have to be as good as his comparables.

Grabovski can easily place as one of the top-6 forwards on any of those teams.

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Really, better than Richards, Sharp and Bergeron? Don't go to the Bruins forum son. LOL
I didn't say that. I said if you replaced one with the other, it wouldn't make enough of a difference to prevent the team from winning.

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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Never said this, you did. But here's a newsflash for you. Good players in this case let's say Kessel need support from the other top 6 players. Crosby could not win the cup alone, nor did Lemieux(he had Ron Francis)
Of course players need support from other players. Nobody is saying otherwise, except you when bashing Grabovski for not doing it all alone.

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12-09-2012, 03:30 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Again, the logic escapes you guys.

Who is he going to replace as the 2C? When you have better players at the #2C as I have illustrated, how is he going to get in the lineup?

It's incumbent on the Grabo enablers to prove he would lol rise to the occasion.

Grabo has not been part of the playoffs since 06-07 in the AHL.

Far more Good players make the playoffs, than good one's don't. Grabo is a mediocre player that cashed in playing on a bad team with Kule and Mac, once this team gets deeper, he will be moved off the roster. It's part of the process, talent improves, baggage is removed. Wins will follow.
What logic are you using? Are we getting some of those players?

As of right now Grabo doesn't have to replace anyone as the 2c seeing as he already is our #2C.

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12-09-2012, 03:39 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
They weren't all #2 centers.

Of course the 5 other players make a difference. It is idiotic to think otherwise. If some of the other 5 are better than their comparables, then Grabovski doesn't have to be as good as his comparables.
Krejci who was the team leading scorer for the Bruins was centering the number 1 line.

Kopitar was the number 1 in LA.

Toews was number 1 in Chicago.

What doesn't compute to you? Bergeron, Sharp, and Richards were the #2C to their respective teams when they won the cup.

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Grabovski can easily place as one of the top-6 forwards on any of those teams.
Well now it is top 6 fwd, well I agree we should try him at RW behind Kessel since he is a challenged playmaker with his mediocre ice vision. Ie. 29 assists career high.
Easily is silly considering he has not seen a playoff game since 06-07.

Want to know what his career playoff stats are for inferior leagues? 13 points in 32 games. Betcha didn't know that.

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I didn't say that. I said if you replaced one with the other, it wouldn't make enough of a difference to prevent the team from winning.
A statement with nothing to back it up, I might as well say Bozak could easily replace any of the other centers and it wouldn't make a difference either. Heck, why not? If Grabo enablers can.

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Of course players need support from other players. Nobody is saying otherwise, except you when bashing Grabovski for not doing it all alone
Except Grabo supporting our marque players has gotten us 2 lottery picks(1 traded) in 4 years. Is this lost on you? Does better top 6 support players make the bulb burn brighter?

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12-09-2012, 03:42 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
What logic are you using? Are we getting some of those players?

As of right now Grabo doesn't have to replace anyone as the 2c seeing as he already is our #2C.
Kadri will be phased in soon, he is roughly 7 years younger, has a better upside, is a better playmaker, has better hands, plays with an edge. The way he is playing, that day may be coming sooner than later.

But maybe we should keep Grabo for another year, I sure don't mind another losing season if it nets us another Rielly type player.

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12-09-2012, 03:45 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Elite can mean many things, Kings would not have won the cup without Richards last year. Or is it coincidental that Kopitar and the Kings didn't prior to Mike being traded out west?

Richards is an elite fwd, he may not be a Semin stats player, but he wins at almost every level. Intangibles.

Bob Gainey wouldn't be termed an elite player but he was to me, doubt the Canadiens win as many cups as they did without him. We can talk semantics but Richards and Gainey were elite players through leadership, value as in 2 way play, and grit.

The Russians used to call Gainey the perfect hockey player, they didn't say this for Lafleur or Shutt.
Sorry, Malkin and Zetterberg were the only 2 elite players in your list.

Elite isn't good, or very good or excellent it is elite.

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12-09-2012, 04:01 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Sorry, Malkin and Zetterberg were the only 2 elite players in your list.

Elite isn't good, or very good or excellent it is elite.
We respectfully disagree then, no probs. To me elite is, is this player an elite player. Bob Gainey was one of the most dominant players to play against in his prime.

I remember, Sittler and Mcdonald used to face him everytime we met. And it was incredibly fustrating trying to beat that line. A rarity if we did but we never got past the Habs and Gainey was an elite presence to why we didn't.

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12-09-2012, 04:06 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Krejci who was the team leading scorer for the Bruins was centering the number 1 line.

Kopitar was the number 1 in LA.

Toews was number 1 in Chicago.

What doesn't compute to you? Bergeron, Sharp, and Richards were the #2C to their respective teams when they won the cup.
Bergeron and Krejci lines are not labelled as 1st or 2nd.
Malkin had the most TOI/game for Pittsburgh forwards, and was 4th in face-offs. He was not the #2 center.
Zetterberg had the most TOI/game for Detroit forwards, and was 1st in face-offs. He was not the #2 center.

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Well now it is top 6 fwd, well I agree we should try him at RW behind Kessel since he is a challenged playmaker with his mediocre ice vision. Ie. 29 assists career high.
Easily is silly considering he has not seen a playoff game since 06-07.
The notion of playing a center as a winger on a team that is weak at center and overloaded at winger is stupid enough.

That said, it has always been top-6 forward. That's what a #2 center is. A top-6 forward who can play center well. Grabovski is exactly that. Good defensively, good at face-offs, non-perimeter player.

So if you agree that Grabovski can be a top-6 forward, then shut the hell up about needing to get rid of him. You're being intentionally stubborn when you just admitted that he belongs where he is.

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Want to know what his career playoff stats are for inferior leagues? 13 points in 32 games. Betcha didn't know that.


Half of those are from the RSL. Then he had 11 points in 20 games in his AHL rookie season and first season in NA.

Even if it meant anything, which it doesn't, that is perfectly fine.

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A statement with nothing to back it up, I might as well say Bozak could easily replace any of the other centers and it wouldn't make a difference either. Heck, why not? If Grabo enablers can.
Except one is realistic and based in logic. One is ridiculous. And you know that.

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Except Grabo supporting our marque players has gotten us 2 lottery picks(1 traded) in 4 years. Is this lost on you? Does better support players make the bulb burn brighter?
Correlation does not mean causation.

There is absolutely zero reason to believe that any lack of success is because of Grabovski. Heck, he didn't even play for 1/3 of one of the lottery pick years.

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12-09-2012, 04:14 PM
  #313
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Bozak in his second full season was 4 points shy of Grabo last year in one less game played.

I know Kessel and Lupul carried him, just like how Mac and Kule carried Grabo in 10-11.

All I know is Bozak was usually the first back covering for Kessel and Lupul when they were up ice, he also can win his fair of draws when Steckel went down.

Notice Wilson went to Bozak not Grabo when a key faceoff was needed.

Also Bozak is 6'1 almost 200lbs, he asserted himself far more last year, he doesn't make himself a crashtest dummy like some 5'11 kamikaze who doesn't know better to.

He also recognizes to leave the puck to Kessel since he knows who has the elite creativity and vision on the team.

He doesn't overhandle the puck, or hog the puck because he is smart enough to know the aforementioned.

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Except one is realistic and based in logic. One is ridiculous. And you know that.

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12-09-2012, 04:21 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Bergeron and Krejci lines are not labelled as 1st or 2nd.
Malkin had the most TOI/game for Pittsburgh forwards, and was 4th in face-offs. He was not the #2 center.
Just one question since it is clear you don't get it, who would you replaced for Grabo since you said, claimed Grabo could have filled in on these cup winning teams and not missed a beat by winning the cup.

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12-09-2012, 04:46 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Bozak in his second full season was 4 points shy of Grabo last year in one less game played.
He played a half-season before that. By your logic, Grabovski just finished his "third full season".

Also, a key note you are forgetting to mention. Bozak was playing with 2 PPG players, and getting greater offensive opportunities.

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I know Kessel and Lupul carried him, just like how Mac and Kule carried Grabo in 10-11.
How the hell did two players that got the same number of points as Grabovski carry him, especially when Grabovski was closest of all of them to his average number of points that year.

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All I know is Bozak was usually the first back covering for Kessel and Lupul when they were up ice, he also can win his fair of draws when Steckel went down.
I don't see how this is relevant. Yes, Bozak is good defensively and good at face-offs. So is Grabovski.

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Notice Wilson went to Bozak not Grabo when a key faceoff was needed.
That is not true at all.

If it was an important offensive face-off, Bozak went in because you want Kessel and Lupul there.
If it was an important defensive face-off against top players, Grabovski, the shutdown center, went in.
If it was an important defensive face-off against lesser players, Steckel went in.

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Also Bozak is 6'1 almost 200lbs, he asserted himself far more last year, he doesn't make himself a crashtest dummy like some 5'11 kamikaze who doesn't know better to.
He is 6'1 and 195 pounds, and is less physical and weaker on his skates than Grabovski, with the negligible differences of 2 inches and 12 pounds.

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He also recognizes to leave the puck to Kessel since he knows who has the elite creativity and vision on the team.
Yeah, how dare Grabovski not let Kessel have the puck while on a completely different line. I don't even...

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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
He doesn't overhandle the puck, or hog the puck because he is smart enough to know the aforementioned.
Grabovski doesn't over-handle or hog the puck. He is the best on his line at carrying it through the neutral zone, so that is what he does. It's called knowing what you're good at and doing it. And you know. Listening to the coach.

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12-09-2012, 04:48 PM
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Just one question since it is clear you don't get it, who would you replaced for Grabo since you said, claimed Grabo could have filled in on these cup winning teams and not missed a beat by winning the cup.
You could probably insert Grabovski in place of any forward except for maybe the top 3-4 forwards on any team, and it would not have affected them winning or contending.

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12-09-2012, 04:53 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Bozak in his second full season was 4 points shy of Grabo last year in one less game played.

I know Kessel and Lupul carried him, just like how Mac and Kule carried Grabo in 10-11.

All I know is Bozak was usually the first back covering for Kessel and Lupul when they were up ice, he also can win his fair of draws when Steckel went down.

Notice Wilson went to Bozak not Grabo when a key faceoff was needed.

Also Bozak is 6'1 almost 200lbs, he asserted himself far more last year, he doesn't make himself a crashtest dummy like some 5'11 kamikaze who doesn't know better to.

He also recognizes to leave the puck to Kessel since he knows who has the elite creativity and vision on the team.

He doesn't overhandle the puck, or hog the puck because he is smart enough to know the aforementioned.
Notice Wilson is unemployed?

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12-09-2012, 06:21 PM
  #318
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LOL @ Using playoff stats from when Grabo was 19-21 playing limited minutes in the RSL as an indication of how he'd play in today's playoffs as a full-time, 28-year-old NHLer. Completely irrelevant.

However, drive and determination are the factors which define playoff warriors, which are two things Grabo has in spades today.

Say whatever negative things you want about him, the one thing that is absolutely irrefutable (although I'm sure a certain someone will try to refute) about Grabo is how he gives it his all every single night. It's a quality that makes coaches love him and GMs want to sign him for 5 years.

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12-09-2012, 06:35 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
He played a half-season before that. By your logic, Grabovski just finished his "third full season"
Not that it matters Bozak is not a top #2C on a cup winning team either, so I don't know why you are trying so hard to prove Grabo is better than him.

Bozak played 37 games at the age of 23 right out of college during the 09-10 season. To some this is an even bigger jump than straight out of junior hockey, given how many free agents out of college even make the NHL, I think he has done pretty well for himself.

Grabo played 27 games for Montreal with a season in the Russian pro league and 1 full year of AHL hockey, from 06 - 08 as a 23 - 24 year old. That's almost 2 full years than Bozak.

You draw the comparisons in development and age.

If you want to use your comparable, Grabo has played in the pros since the 06-07 season, Bozak has played in the pros since 09-10.

You tell me being 4 points less than Grabo when Grabs has had 3 years on Bozak, 2 years of development in the pros as something you want to crow about? Bozak will always be 2 years, 9 months younger than Grabo, and given that he has a lot less developmental time than Grabo, it is more than likely more upside too.

Point 2 to follow, like shooting fish in a barrel.

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12-09-2012, 06:38 PM
  #320
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Was I the only one who witnessed Grabo carry our team through overtimes and shootouts night in and night out over the past 3 seasons? Oh and what is all this nonsense about Mac and Kulemin carrying Grabo? wow. Interactif I have no idea what to say to this.

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12-09-2012, 06:40 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Bozak in his second full season was 4 points shy of Grabo last year in one less game played.

I know Kessel and Lupul carried him, just like how Mac and Kule carried Grabo in 10-11.

All I know is Bozak was usually the first back covering for Kessel and Lupul when they were up ice, he also can win his fair of draws when Steckel went down.

Notice Wilson went to Bozak not Grabo when a key faceoff was needed.

Also Bozak is 6'1 almost 200lbs, he asserted himself far more last year, he doesn't make himself a crashtest dummy like some 5'11 kamikaze who doesn't know better to.

He also recognizes to leave the puck to Kessel since he knows who has the elite creativity and vision on the team.

He doesn't overhandle the puck, or hog the puck because he is smart enough to know the aforementioned.
Grabo had similar numbers last year and in 10-11. Kulemin didn't put up points and MacArthur didn't do as well as he did his first year. How was he carried by his linemates in 10-11 exactly? If anything, you could say he carried them.

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12-09-2012, 06:41 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Also, a key note you are forgetting to mention. Bozak was playing with 2 PPG players, and getting greater offensive opportunities.
This is like the most common reply for Grabo enablers, did you forget Grabo played unsuccessfully I might add with a former 40 goal scorer? Blake ring a bell?

Kule a 30 goal scorer too. So Bozak played with a 37 goal scorer, a 25 goal man for parts of last year. Don't forget, he was the best choice there, and he hardly played an entire season with Kessel or the injuried Lupul. Lombardi, Connolly, and Steckel were all tried too.

To Wilson's credit he knew enough to keep the puck hog with limited playmaking skills and zero physical board play, away from Kessel.

Point 2.

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12-09-2012, 06:46 PM
  #323
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This is like the most common reply for Grabo enablers, did you forget Grabo played unsuccessfully I might add with a former 40 goal scorer? Blake ring a bell?
Do you remember who BLAKE played with? your point has gone from somewhat logical to just nonsense.

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12-09-2012, 06:47 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
How the hell did two players that got the same number of points as Grabovski carry him, especially when Grabovski was closest of all of them to his average number of points that year.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here with this point, but if you are trying to say Grabo was brought down by Kule last year, since Mac scored only 1 goal less in 9 games less than 10-11, so he actually had a better goal per game ratio.

Try asking yourself why Grabo got a measley 29 assists if he truly made a difference in Kule or Mac's career years.

I think you know, it may be the other way around, Grabo was lost before Mac and Kule became his wingers, certainly Kule has helped his defensive rep.

Point 3.

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12-09-2012, 06:49 PM
  #325
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Bozak played 37 games at the age of 23 right out of college during the 09-10 season. To some this is an even bigger jump than straight out of junior hockey, given how many free agents out of college even make the NHL, I think he has done pretty well for himself.
College is only a bigger jump than Junior hockey because of the adjustment in games played in addition to all of the other changes. Bozak did not have to deal with this.

Bozak has done well for himself. Not sure what your point is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
If you want to use your comparable, Grabo has played in the pros since the 06-07 season, Bozak has played in the pros since 09-10.
Yep, 3 games means you are an NHLer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You tell me being 4 points less than Grabo when Grabs has had 3 years on Bozak, 2 years of development in the pros as something you want to crow about? Bozak will always be 2 years, 9 months younger than Grabo, and given that he has a lot less developmental time than Grabo, it is more than likely more upside too.
Bozak may still turn into a better player. He is not better than Grabovski right now.

Having less points than grabovski while playing with PPG players is not evidence to the contrary.

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