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Old
12-09-2012, 06:50 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
Do you remember who BLAKE played with? your point has gone from somewhat logical to just nonsense.
Blake was utterly lost before until Domenic Moore became his center, next time back up what you say. I can't stand a blanket inaccurate statement without context.

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12-09-2012, 06:53 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
That is not true at all.

If it was an important offensive face-off, Bozak went in because you want Kessel and Lupul there.
If it was an important defensive face-off against top players, Grabovski, the shutdown center, went in.
If it was an important defensive face-off against lesser players, Steckel went in.
Wrong, you need to rewatch your Leafs games, Grabo is not even an option for key faceoffs, even the Grabo enablers will never concede he is Mike Richards or Patrice Bergeron. Hint, hint...

Point 4, ping.

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12-09-2012, 06:59 PM
  #328
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Blake was utterly lost before until Domenic Moore became his center, next time back up what you say. I can't stand a blanket inaccurate statement without context.
Blake was a one hit wonder who was nothing more than an average second line player until he had pucks fed to him by another short term wonder in Sillinger as well as Alexei Yashin. Dig some facts before you call Blake some perennial 40 goal scorer. The man never came close to 40 goals before. Another absurd accusation you have made is that Grabo is a puck hog? You don't hog a puck and nail the assists he did. Did you bother to look at blakes stats? seriously, take a long hard look at his career shots vs passes/assists and you will realise how ignorant your lopsided arugement has become. Regardless I am done and I will enjoy 5 more years of a SLIGHTLY overpayed grabo knowing that it drives you up the wall.

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12-09-2012, 07:00 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
He is 6'1 and 195 pounds, and is less physical and weaker on his skates than Grabovski, with the negligible differences of 2 inches and 12 pounds.
Tyler is actually listed at 197lbs on hockey.db, so 195 or 198 is as I accurately stated he is almost 200 lbs.

And he was far more effective on the body last year, I can recall him taking out defenceman he wouldn't have touched the year before, that's what happens when you have a bounce back year. You are so off here it isn't funny.

Point 5, ping again.

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12-09-2012, 07:06 PM
  #330
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This is like the most common reply for Grabo enablers, did you forget Grabo played unsuccessfully I might add with a former 40 goal scorer? Blake ring a bell?
What a terrible, terrible argument. Blake is not a 40-goal scorer. He had one season at 40 (and even then, only topped out at 69 points), and none of the others were even close to that level. By the time Grabovski played with him, he had regressed to worse than even his average season, and Grabovski was not "unsuccessful with him".

Playing with a player who fluked out some season in the past, is not the same as playing with two PPG players in the present.

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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Kule a 30 goal scorer too. So Bozak played with a 37 goal scorer, a 25 goal man for parts of last year. Don't forget, he was the best choice there, and he hardly played an entire season with Kessel or the injuried Lupul. Lombardi, Connolly, and Steckel were all tried too.
Why are you using goal totals? Oh, that's right, to skew the facts. And Kulemin only scored 30 goals once, when he was with Grabovski.

Bozak played with two PPG players. And he was only the best choice there because of chemistry and the need to spread out offense. Grabovski played with a 43-point player, and either a 28-point player or a rookie, and was forced into defensive roles.

Connolly only played 10 or so games in that position, Lombardi only played there when Bozak was injured, and Steckel was never used there as a regular or as anything more than to win face-offs.

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To Wilson's credit he knew enough to keep the puck hog with limited playmaking skills and zero physical board play, away from Kessel.
No, he knew to keep one of the better offensive players who can carry the play on his own line, so as to spread out offense and roles most effectively.

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12-09-2012, 07:09 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Yeah, how dare Grabovski not let Kessel have the puck while on a completely different line. I don't even...


Grabovski doesn't over-handle or hog the puck. He is the best on his line at carrying it through the neutral zone, so that is what he does. It's called knowing what you're good at and doing it. And you know. Listening to the coach.
Who would you rather have the puck when a goak or creative play is needed? Tunnel man Grabo or Phil Kessel who was 6th leading scorer in the NHL last year? No brainer for most.
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Grabovski doesn't over-handle or hog the puck.
Really, how many times we see him pass when he shouldn't or not shoot when he should when he is circling the zone, overhandlling the puck.

Even that crap stat corsi says he hogs the puck. Yeah I will admit one thing, Grabo is great skating figure 8's on the ice, puck hog. By the way Macarthur is pretty good handling the puck. Tough to show you can when Grabo is your center.

Bang, point 6.

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12-09-2012, 07:14 PM
  #332
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I'm not sure what you are getting at here with this point, but if you are trying to say Grabo was brought down by Kule last year, since Mac scored only 1 goal less in 9 games less than 10-11, so he actually had a better goal per game ratio.
I am saying there is no way in hell that two players who in their best, statistic anomaly year can match Grabovski in a normal year, are carrying Grabovski.

Macarthur scored the same as last year, yes. But he was not the same player, and his play-making took a big drop. The chemistry dynamic was also lost, as Kulemin also fell off the face of the earth offensively, and the only other people Grabovski played with were rookies.

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Try asking yourself why Grabo got a measley 29 assists if he truly made a difference in Kule or Mac's career years.
29 assists is not that bad, especially for a 2nd-liner who is not primarily a play-maker and is the main force on his line. And you don't need an assist to have an impact on a play.

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I think you know, it may be the other way around, Grabo was lost before Mac and Kule became his wingers, certainly Kule has helped his defensive rep.
I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that Grabovski is lost without Macarthur and Kulemin when he produces similarly with and without them.

And no, Kulemin is not the reason Grabovski is good defensively.

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12-09-2012, 07:16 PM
  #333
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Wrong, you need to rewatch your Leafs games, Grabo is not even an option for key faceoffs, even the Grabo enablers will never concede he is Mike Richards or Patrice Bergeron. Hint, hint...
I watched every single game. It is not a debatable thing. It is fact. It happened.

You go back and watch.

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12-09-2012, 07:17 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Bozak may still turn into a better player. He is not better than Grabovski right now.
We don't have a season, but glad some of my posts are knocking some sense through to you.

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Having less points than grabovski while playing with PPG players is not evidence to the contrary.
Nor does making a blanket generalization that Grabo would have won a cup in place of Sharp, Richards, or Bergeron/Krejci. (Take your pick to make it easier for you)

BTW I will take your avoiding my question who would you replace as a #2C on that one as a concession you know I am right and not debatable.

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12-09-2012, 07:18 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Tyler is actually listed at 197lbs on hockey.db, so 195 or 198 is as I accurately stated he is almost 200 lbs.

And he was far more effective on the body last year, I can recall him taking out defenceman he wouldn't have touched the year before, that's what happens when you have a bounce back year. You are so off here it isn't funny.

Point 5, ping again.
He is 195 on both Wikipedia and NHL.com.

And no, Bozak was not a physical force by any stretch of the term, and is weaker on his skates than Grabovski.

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12-09-2012, 07:20 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Who would you rather have the puck when a goak or creative play is needed? Tunnel man Grabo or Phil Kessel who was 6th leading scorer in the NHL last year? No brainer for most.
Uhh.. Kessel obviously. Just because Grabovski isn't as good offensively as the 6th overall points leader, doesn't mean he can't be a #2 center.

That is why grabovski is on the 2nd line. So both lines can have that presence.

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Really, how many times we see him pass when he shouldn't or not shoot when he should when he is circling the zone, overhandlling the puck.
How many times have you seen it? Lots I bet, in that deluded mind of yours. How many times has it actually happened? Barely ever. Not anymore than any other player.

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Even that crap stat corsi says he hogs the puck. Yeah I will admit one thing, Grabo is great skating figure 8's on the ice, puck hog. By the way Macarthur is pretty good handling the puck. Tough to show you can when Grabo is your center.
The Corsi stat does not say he hogs the puck.

Macarthur isn't bad, but he isn't at Grabovski's level.

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12-09-2012, 07:21 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
And no, Kulemin is not the reason Grabovski is good defensively.
Like shooting fish in a barrel, what was Grabo's minus when Kule went down? If this isn't proof Kule helped out Grabo's defensive game, what is? check Kule's + in the KHL. Someone will now claim it is only anadotical evidence.

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12-09-2012, 07:23 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
He is 195 on both Wikipedia and NHL.com.

And no, Bozak was not a physical force by any stretch of the term, and is weaker on his skates than Grabovski.
Is that not close to 200 lbs as I stated?

Ping again.

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12-09-2012, 07:25 PM
  #339
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We don't have a season, but glad some of my posts are knocking some sense through to you.
Uhh.. I never said Bozak has reached his top potential, or that he couldn't improve. It just isn't close now. Grabovski is far ahead.

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Nor does making a blanket generalization that Grabo would have won a cup in place of Sharp, Richards, or Bergeron/Krejci. (Take your pick to make it easier for you)
They likely would have. Definitely would have in place of one of their top-6 forwards. Not sure what you're trying to say here.

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BTW I will take your avoiding my question who would you replace as a #2C on that one as a concession you know I am right and not debatable.
Uhh.. I did answer that. Read next time genius.

As I said before...

You could probably insert Grabovski in place of any forward except for maybe the top 3-4 forwards on any team, and it would not have affected them winning or contending.

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12-09-2012, 07:26 PM
  #340
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Like shooting fish in a barrel, what was Grabo's minus when Kule went down? If this isn't proof Kule helped out Grabo's defensive game, what is? check Kule's + in the KHL. Someone will now claim it is only anadotical evidence.
Grabovski had a minus when Kulemin (and a bunch of other players went down), because the team was in free-fall and losing. It wasn't because Kulemin suddenly wasn't there.


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12-09-2012, 07:28 PM
  #341
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Is that not close to 200 lbs as I stated?

Ping again.
It is close to 200 pounds, but it is not 200 pounds, and it is an irrelevant statistic, both because it is a negligible difference, and because it does not reflect how each player plays.

You should really stop pinging yourself in the head. I know you hate yourself for being wrong, but you shouldn't hurt yourself.

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12-09-2012, 07:28 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
You could probably insert Grabovski in place of any forward except for maybe the top 3-4 forwards on any team, and it would not have affected them winning or contending.
But You didn't answer, you avoided it by placing a new set of if's as a creative way of avoiding the question.

Grabo is a Center, to some a good one. He is not a winger as much as you try to avoid the question to smokescreen your answer.

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12-09-2012, 07:30 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
It is close to 200 pounds, but it is not 200 pounds, and it is an irrelevant statistic, both because it is a negligible difference, and because it does not reflect how each player plays.

You should really stop pinging yourself in the head. I know you hate yourself for being wrong, but you shouldn't hurt yourself.
He's 197, but I will accept 195-197. As I said close to 200lbs, who knows maybe he is at 200 right now with the proper training.

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12-09-2012, 07:34 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Grabovski had a minus when Kulemin (and a bunch of other players went down), because the team was in free-fall and losing. It wasn't because Kulemin suddenly wasn't there.

Or perhaps Grabo needs Kule more than you like us to believe he does. You know Kule was +7 last year despite a reduction in goals. Most know he is the best defensive fwd on the team, and it hurt Grabo that the defensive conscience of the line was out.

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12-09-2012, 07:37 PM
  #345
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But You didn't answer, you avoided it by placing a new set of if's as a creative way of avoiding the question.

Grabo is a Center, to some a good one. He is not a winger as much as you try to avoid the question to smokescreen your answer.
Glad to see you agree he is not a winger. Seems to contradict your entire argument that he is actually a winger on a center-weak team, but hey, you're learning.

I had already told you that replacing any of the 3 players with Grabovski would still result in a cup, and the other 2 you mentioned weren't even #2 centers. But the more logical question is, is he a top-6 forward?

The answer is yes. He would be the 4th or 5th best forward on essentially all contenders.

And since he plays center effectively and it is his most comfortable and sensible position, he could play there if there wasn't a better option (like he does on Toronto). If there is a better option for #2 center, then he can switch to wing (or go to a contender that is in greater need of a #2 center).


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12-09-2012, 07:40 PM
  #346
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Or perhaps Grabo needs Kule more than you like us to believe he does. You know Kule was +7 last year despite a reduction in goals. Most know he is the best defensive fwd on the team, and it hurt Grabo that the defensive conscience of the line was out.
Or more likely, it was a matter of them simply playing at times that affected their +/- team stat.

Because Grabovski played through the team slump and Kulemin didn't, Grabovski was affected by the team minuses and Kulemin wasn't.

Heck, Kulemin probably is our best defensive forward. But that doesn't mean that Grabovski is overrated or that Kulemin carries him.

Kulemin played games off of the Grabovski line before he got injured, and Grabovski's +/- was fine, despite playing with a rookie. Not that +/- means anything in the first place.

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12-09-2012, 07:46 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by Interactif
But You didn't answer, you avoided it by placing a new set of if's as a creative way of avoiding the question.

Grabo is a Center, to some a good one. He is not a winger as much as you try to avoid the question to smokescreen your answer.

Glad to see you agree he is not a winger. Seems to contradict your entire argument that he is actually a winger on a center-weak team, but hey, you're learning.
I noticed the huge contradiction too. This whole arguement has gone dry. At the end of the day Grabo is a good center, by no means a puck hog and I know I will enjoy 5 more years of strong play by our center

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12-09-2012, 08:14 PM
  #348
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Glad to see you agree he is not a winger. Seems to contradict your entire argument that he is actually a winger on a center-weak team, but hey, you're learning.

I had already told you that replacing any of the 3 players with Grabovski would still result in a cup, and the other 2 you mentioned weren't even #2 centers. But the more logical question is, is he a top-6 forward?

The answer is yes. He would be the 4th or 5th best forward on essentially all contenders.

And since he plays center effectively and it is his most comfortable and sensible position, he could play there if there wasn't a better option (like he does on Toronto). If there is a better option for #2 center, then he can switch to wing (or go to a contender that is in greater need of a #2 center).
How am I contradicting my argument, how did you arrive at this? My whole premise is that Grabo would not have been part of a championship team when you examine the quality of centers that have played for these Cup winning teams, if you can make a case Grabo is equal or better than any of these past C's that won a championship, then do so, I am listening. If you can't my point has been made, it is crystal clear and based on 100% fact.


Kopitar 76pts
Mike Richards 44pts missed 8 games 15pts playoffs
Krejci 62pts missed 7 games 23pts playoffs
Bergeron 57pts 20pts playoffs
Carter 61pts missed 8 games
Mike Richards 62pts 23pts playoffs
Sharp 66pts 22pts Playoffs
Toews 68pts 29pts Playoffs+Cup
Malkin 113pts 36pts playoffs
Crosby 103pts
Zetterberg 92
Datsyuk 97pts
Getzlaf 58pts 17pts (team high in playoffs) playoffs+Cup
Mcdonald 78pts
Brind'Amour 70pts
Staal 100 pts

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12-09-2012, 08:14 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
I noticed the huge contradiction too. This whole arguement has gone dry. At the end of the day Grabo is a good center, by no means a puck hog and I know I will enjoy 5 more years of strong play by our center
Where is the contradiction you state?

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12-09-2012, 08:20 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Glad to see you agree he is not a winger. Seems to contradict your entire argument that he is actually a winger on a center-weak team, but hey, you're learning.

I had already told you that replacing any of the 3 players with Grabovski would still result in a cup, and the other 2 you mentioned weren't even #2 centers. But the more logical question is, is he a top-6 forward?

The answer is yes. He would be the 4th or 5th best forward on essentially all contenders.

And since he plays center effectively and it is his most comfortable and sensible position, he could play there if there wasn't a better option (like he does on Toronto). If there is a better option for #2 center, then he can switch to wing (or go to a contender that is in greater need of a #2 center).
An argument based on ifs, hardly compelling for a player that has never seen a NHL playoff game. Quite a leap to claim he could replace any top 6 fwd on a cup winner isn't it?

BTW correction, he isn't a winger because we simply don't know for certain because it hasn't been tried. But after 4 years of a good center for an awful team, not a cup winner. I am willing to try a tunnel visioned mediocre center in comparison to the rest of the league on the wing. Nothing to lose.

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