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Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
12-08-2012, 08:54 AM
  #26
Rob Scuderi
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Info pulled from goalie spreadsheet floating around. 1953 is the first season included so Lumley loses a number of seasons. Also 1500 minutes was used as the minimum when determining the league ranks.

Harry Lumley
YearTeamGPSave% (League Average)League RankGAALeague RankAll-Star Team Spots
1953TOR70 GP.912% (.916%)5/62.39 GAA3/6 
1954TOR69 GP.923% (.919%)2/61.86 GAA1/61st Team
1955TOR69 GP.929% (.915%)1/71.94 GAA1/71st Team
1956TOR59 GP.905% (.916%)6/62.70 GAA4/6 
1958BOS24 GP.910% (.909%) 2.92 GAA  
1959BOS11 GP.923% (.905%) 2.45 GAA  
1960BOS42 GP.894% (.906%)7/73.50 GAA6/7 
1957 was spent in the AHL

Gump Worsley
YearTeamGPSave% (League Average)League RankGAALeague RankAll-Star Team Spots
1953NYR50 GP.901% (.916%)6/63.06 GAA6/6 
1955NYR65 GP.915% (.915%)4/73.04 GAA6/7 
1956NYR70 GP.920% (.916%)3/62.90 GAA5/6 
1957NYR68 GP.904% (.910%)5/73.24 GAA7/7 
1958NYR37 GP.929% (.909%)1/72.32 GAA2/7 
1959NYR67 GP.905% (.905%)3/73.07 GAA5/7 
1960NYR39 GP.897% (.906%)T5/73.57 GAA7/7 
1961NYR59 GP.912% (.907%)4/83.33 GAA7/8 
1962NYR60 GP.912% (.905%)4/62.96 GAA4/6 
1963NYR67 GP.914% (.907%)2/63.30 GAA5/6 
1964MON8 GP.897% (.917%) 2.97 GAA  
1965MON19 GP.906% (.907%) 2.78 GAA  
1966MON51 GP.923% (.904%)2/92.32 GAA1/92nd Team
1967MON18 GP.900% (.907%) 3.18 GAA  
1968MON40 GP.922% (.910%)5/191.98 GAA1/191st Team
1969MON30 GP.920% (.908%)4/162.25 GAA3/16 
1970MIN8 GP.932% (.912%) 2.65 GAA  
1971MIN24 GP.920% (.903%) 2.50 GAA  
1972MIN34 GP.934% (.902%)T1/232.12 GAA3/23 
1973MIN12 GP.906% (.896%) 2.89 GAA  
1974MIN29 GP.901% (.896%)9/213.22 GAA15/21 

Eddie Giacomin
YearTeamGPSave% (League Average)League RankGAALeague RankAll-Star Team Spots
1966NYR34 GP.880% (.904%)10/103.70 GAA8/10 
1967NYR68 GP.917% (.907%)3/62.61 GAA4/61st Team
1968NYR66 GP.915% (.910%)6/192.44 GAA5/192nd Team
1969NYR70 GP.912% (.908%)T7/162.55 GAA5/162nd Team
1970NYR70 GP.916% (.912%)8/152.36 GAA4/152nd Team
1971NYR45 GP.922% (.903%)2/222.16 GAA2/221st Team
1972NYR44 GP.900% (.902%)13/232.70 GAA11/22 
1973NYR43 GP.899% (.896%)T13/232.91 GAAT10/23 
1974NYR56 GP.890% (.896%)17/213.07 GAAT9/21 
1975NYR37 GP.870% (.890%)23/253.48 GAA15/25 
1976DET29 GP.890% (.890%)T10/263.45 GAAT15/26 
1977DET33 GP.871% (.891%)T27/313.58 GAA20/31 

Rogie Vachon
YearTeamGPSave% (League Average)League RankGAALeague RankAll-Star Team Spots
1967MON19 GP.915% (.907%) 2.48 GAA  
1968MON39 GP.913% (.910%)T7/192.59 GAAT6/19 
1969MON36 GP.902% (.908%)14/162.87 GAA9/16 
1970MON64 GP.917% (.912%)7/152.63 GAA6/15 
1971MON47 GP.914% (.903%)9/222.65 GAA7/22 
1972LAK28 GP.884 % (.902%)22/234.05 GAA23/23 
1973LAK53 GP.899% (.896%)T13/232.85 GAAT7/23 
1974LAK65 GP.904% (.896%)6/212.80 GAA6/21 
1975LAK54 GP.926% (.890%)1/252.24 GAA2/252nd Team
1976LAK51 GP.891% (.890%)9/263.14 GAA9/26 
1977LAK68 GP.903% (.891%)8/312.71 GAA7/312nd Team
1978LAK70 GP.891% (.889%)12/252.86 GAA11/25 
1979DET50 GP.863% (.883%)28/293.90 GAA25/29 
1980DET59 GP.873% (.882%)24/293.61 GAA19/29 
1981BOS53 GP.863% (.876%)28/313.34 GAAT14/31 
1982BOS38 GP.859% (.873%)31/333.66 GAA10/33 

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12-08-2012, 09:36 AM
  #27
Canadiens1958
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Fairness and Posting False Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
I agree that Lumley was probably the 5th best goalie in the league quite a bit, with the possible exception of his two big seasons in Toronto, and even in those seasons I'm not sure he stood out that much relative to the pack (although it is harder to do so against the five best goalies in the world of course):

1953-54:
Sawchuk .933
Lumley .923
McNeil .922
Bower .922
Henry .913
Rollins .905

1954-55:
Lumley .929
Sawchuk .926
Plante .925
Worsley .915
Henderson .900
Rollins .892

The other thing with Lumley is that he was the most well-travelled goalie of the original six era, but looking at the teams before and after they had him, it doesn't seem like he made much of a positive difference at all:

Traded from Detroit to Chicago:

Brimsek in Chicago (1949-50): 22-38-10, 3.49
Sawchuk in Detroit (1950-51): 44-13-13, 1.99

Lumley in Detroit (1949-50): 33-16-14, 2.35
Lumley in Chicago (1950-51): 12-41-10, 3.90

Traded from Chicago to Toronto:

Rollins in Toronto (1951-52): 29-24-16, 2.22
Rollins in Chicago (1952-53): 27-28-15, 2.50

Lumley in Chicago (1951-52): 17-44-9, 3.46
Lumley in Toronto (1952-53): 27-30-13, 2.39

Traded from Toronto to Chicago:

Lumley in Toronto (1955-56): 21-28-10, 2.67
Backups in Toronto (1955-56): 3-5-3, 1.87
Chadwick in Toronto (1956-57): 21-34-15, 2.66

Traded from Chicago to Boston:

Sawchuk/Simmons in 1956-57: 31-19-10, 2.40
Lumley in Boston (1957-58 to 1959-60): 35-33-9, 3.16
Simmons in Boston (1957-58 to 1959-60): 51-53-20, 2.95


I'm not sure how fair it is to Lumley to make those comparisons across seasons, but it's not exactly evidence in his favour, although it does not include his two best seasons since they came in the middle of his Toronto tenure.

The other concerning thing about Lumley is that he was basically finished as a starting goalie in the NHL at the age of 29, which is quite early for that period. Lumley did have a lot of mileage on him at that point since he broke in so young, but he was beat out in Chicago training camp by Al Rollins in 1956, and played the 1956-57 season for Buffalo in the AHL on a team that missed the playoffs. He then mostly backed up Don Simmons from 1957-58 to 1959-60, although Lumley did take over as starter at times, both during the 1959 playoffs and for much of the 1959-60 season.

Lumley does kind of give the impression of a goalie that was a bit of a prodigy that was perfectly positioned to break into the league early during WWII when the regular goalies were overseas and just kind of hang around as an unspectacular original six goalie for a long time with a couple of very good seasons in there on good defensive teams. That certainly has value but I'm not sure if it's top 30 value. For now I have Gump Worsley comfortably ahead of Lumley because I think his results are better given their respect team contexts.
Posting false information - second time in this thread by different posters.

Harry Lumley refused to report to Chiacago in 1956. Two sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_L...8ice_hockey%29

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...page=bio&list=

Please stop as this is not your first oops.

Fairness. Do not see any evidence of fairness here.

The before and after presentation fails to look at the package of players involved in the trade. To get Lumley in 1950 the Hawks gave up Bob Goldham their best dman at the time for a post prime Jack Stewart. Examine the transactions in depth as opposed to superficially.

Lumley was not finished by 29. He refused to report to Chicago. Tommy Ivan, his 1950 coach in Detroit was running Chicago - coach/GM. As for his Buffalo stay - Hawks farm club. Hawks did not have the talent to stock an NHL team let alone both an NHL and AHL team. After Pierre Pilote was called-up to the NHL the Buffalo season spiraled downwards. Your portrayal does not contain any elements of fairness in this situation either.

The Boston stay is rather interesting. At various points in the 1950s we see evidence of early tandem goaltending. Examples would include Toronto with Broda/Rollins, Montreal - McNeil/Plante, Toronto - Chadwick/Bower, Boston - Simmons/Lumley and Henry/Henderson. You fail to raise this rather obvious point when commenting on Lumley's Boston stay. Again a lack of fairness.

As for the Worsley comparable. Worsley was successful as a tandem goalie. He played one complete NHL season - conditioning was a major factor. As a stand alone goalie Worsley was rarely a factor. Harry Lumley played five complete NHL seasons and two where he missed one game.

This would be a fair comparable of their attributes and careers.

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12-08-2012, 09:48 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
I'll throw in Thompson as well plus Worters and Charlie Gardiner.

All five had great success with great coaches.

Hainsworth won SCs with Cecil Hart but like most goalies did not with Dick Irvin.

Worsley was a valuable asset playing for Toe Blake but a character during the rest of his career.

Tiny Thompson won the last pre forward pass SC in Boston but as the game passed by Art Ross and the Bruins his performance lagged.

Tommy Gorman coached - Worters Hart in 1928-29, Gardiner SC in 1934, Connell - SC in 1935, as GM signed Bill Durnan. Knew how to build a team around a goalie.
Add every goalie that plays for Ken Hitchcock or Jacques Lemaire as having a great advantage.

Clearly team and/or coach has a bigger impact on goalies than skaters.

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12-08-2012, 09:57 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The Leafs with Hainsworth for three seasons won during the regular season - 1st/1st/2nd by two points, so age was not a factor.. Dick Irvin's playoff magic held and the team underperformed.
Finishing 1st, 1st and 2nd probably had more to do with the fact that Toronto was a very good team than the fact they had a past-his-prime goalie...

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12-08-2012, 10:00 AM
  #30
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Three Levels

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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Add every goalie that plays for Ken Hitchcock or Jacques Lemaire as having a great advantage.

Clearly team and/or coach has a bigger impact on goalies than skaters.
Coaching should be viewed at three distinct levels.

The coaches that win when they should but in general make teams better.

The coaches that make teams better but winning is not a given especially if the opposing coach has upwards of seven games to counter.

The coaches who will clutch defeat from the jaws of victory.

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12-08-2012, 10:27 AM
  #31
Mike Farkas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Add every goalie that plays for Ken Hitchcock or Jacques Lemaire as having a great advantage.

Clearly team and/or coach has a bigger impact on goalies than skaters.
Dave Tippett, Al Arbour, Claude Julien...

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12-08-2012, 12:37 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Anybody here has an idea on how to separate Gump Worsley from George Hainsworth? As odd as it seems, those are two guys whose career seem somehow really similar.

While I do think TDMM was a bit harsh on Giacomin, I do indeed believe he shouldn't get serious Top-4 consideration. How is he THAT much different from Tiny Thompson? I don't know. Aside from the tandem thing... And even then, one of them played in a tandem-friendly era, the other didn't really.
I will probably have Hainsworth above Worsley. Maybe I'm underrating the competitiveness of the Original 6 during Worley's time, but it really does seem that Hainsworth was more consistently good, if that make sense. I think Hainsworth's time in the Western leagues does need to be considered and it adds quite a bit. I don't know; I never thought of directly comparing Hainsworth and Worsley before.

The thing with Ed Giacomin is that basically his resume boils down to 5 great regular seasons in a row, and he was absolutely terrible in the playoffs during that time.

Sure, Thompson seemed to be considered below Gardiner and Worters when they were all in the league together, but there's a good case that Thompson was the next best. And his longevity is excellent.

I do think Thompson's playoff resume is fairly weak (Smythe-worthy run in 1929 followed by being part of arguably the biggest choking team of all time in the 1930s Bruins). But I don't think he specifically takes as much blame for the Bruins failures as Giacomin later would for the Rangers.


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12-08-2012, 12:39 PM
  #33
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What did the Hockey Hall of Fame think of these goalies?

First off, I think the HHOF committee is very political and their decisions are often questionable. But I do think it's interesting to look at their decisions.

These are the first 8 goalies inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Paddy Moran and Percy LeSeuer were from an earlier generation of goalies, so I don't think they are directly comparable. But I do think it's noteworthy that Lehman and Thompson were among the first 6 goalies to be enshrined. (And what of Alec Connell?)

1945: Charlie Gardiner, Georges Vezina
1958: Alec Connell, Hugh Lehman, Paddy Moran
1959: Tiny Thompson
1961: George Hainsworth, Percy LeSeuer

Note that Hap Holmes wasn't inducted until 1972.

---------

This is when the more recent goalies were inducted. Unless I missed Billy Smith's actual retirement date by a year, Grant Fuhr was the only first ballot guy.

Harry Lumley. Retired 1960, inducted 1980, waited 20 years
Gump Worsley. Retired 1974, inducted 1989, waited 6 years
Ed Giacomin. Retired 1978, inducted 1987, waited 9 years
Rogie Vachon. Retired 1982, waiting 30 years, still not in
Billy Smith. Retired 1989, inducted 1993, waited 4 years
Grant Fuhr. Retired 2000, inducted 2003, waited 3 years


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12-08-2012, 05:47 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
What did the Hockey Hall of Fame think of these goalies?

First off, I think the HHOF committee is very political and their decisions are often questionable. But I do think it's interesting to look at their decisions.

These are the first 8 goalies inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Paddy Moran and Percy LeSeuer were from an earlier generation of goalies, so I don't think they are directly comparable. But I do think it's noteworthy that Lehman and Thompson were among the first 6 goalies to be enshrined. (And what of Alec Connell?)

1945: Charlie Gardiner, Georges Vezina
1958: Alec Connell, Hugh Lehman, Paddy Moran
1959: Tiny Thompson
1961: George Hainsworth, Percy LeSeuer

Note that Hap Holmes wasn't inducted until 1972.

---------

This is when the more recent goalies were inducted. Unless I missed Billy Smith's actual retirement date by a year, Grant Fuhr was the only first ballot guy.

Harry Lumley. Retired 1960, inducted 1980, waited 20 years
Gump Worsley. Retired 1974, inducted 1989, waited 6 years
Ed Giacomin. Retired 1978, inducted 1987, waited 9 years
Rogie Vachon. Retired 1982, waiting 30 years, still not in
Billy Smith. Retired 1989, inducted 1993, waited 4 years
Grant Fuhr. Retired 2000, inducted 2003, waited 3 years
And Roy Worters in ........1969.

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12-08-2012, 06:07 PM
  #35
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And Roy Worters in ........1969.
And Clint Benedict in 1965. I don't think the order of induction says a ton, but I think it's a small feather in the cap for someone who was inducted before the mass inductions of the mid-late 60s.

As for Worters, yeah I do think it's a small negative. He just wasn't remembered all that much 20 years after he retired and I did rank Parent over him last round largely for that reason (and given the tiny margin in the final count, it did prove decisive). But to be fair to Worters, he was disadvantaged by never winning the Cup and for spending his NHL career with teams that folded before the Hall came into existence.

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12-08-2012, 08:22 PM
  #36
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And Clint Benedict in 1965. I don't think the order of induction says a ton, but I think it's a small feather in the cap for someone who was inducted before the mass inductions of the mid-late 60s.

As for Worters, yeah I do think it's a small negative. He just wasn't remembered all that much 20 years after he retired and I did rank Parent over him last round largely for that reason (and given the tiny margin in the final count, it did prove decisive). But to be fair to Worters, he was disadvantaged by never winning the Cup and for spending his NHL career with teams that folded before the Hall came into existence.
But that covers many HHOFERS from the early years - Cyclone Taylor and other PCHA greats, the old Ottawa Senators, Maroons, pre NHA players. Unless the fact that Frank Nighbour played a bit for the Leafs is a difference maker in his HHOF induction, your point about playing for folded teams is hard to understasnd.

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12-08-2012, 08:45 PM
  #37
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But that covers many HHOFERS from the early years - Cyclone Taylor and other PCHA greats, the old Ottawa Senators, Maroons, pre NHA players. Unless the fact that Frank Nighbour played a bit for the Leafs is a difference maker in his HHOF induction, your point about playing for folded teams is hard to understasnd.
It's more the combination of all the points. It's easy to forget that the Pittsburgh Pirates were ever a hockey team. The Vancouver Millionaires, Seattle Metropolitans, Ottawa Senators and other such teams earned places in the annals of history.

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12-08-2012, 11:29 PM
  #38
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Posting false information - second time in this thread by different posters.

Harry Lumley refused to report to Chiacago in 1956. Two sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_L...8ice_hockey%29

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...page=bio&list=

Please stop as this is not your first oops.
Canadian Press, September 21, 1956

Quote:
There is room for only one goaltender on the National Hockey League Chicago Black Hawks.

General manager Tommy Ivan, in charge of the training camp in the absence of coach Dick Irvin, said Thursday Hawks will open the season "with only one netminder." Irvin, ill in Montreal, probably will report Sunday. Two veterans, Harry Lumley and Al Rollins, are looking for the job. "We will go with the one who shows the best form in training camp," Ivan said. "The other will be plying his trade elsewhere."

Big Lum checked in Wednesday, two days late, at 200 pounds, his average playing weight. Lanky Rollins has been here since training opened Monday. Both looked good in practice sessions Thursday."
Lumley then apparently left training camp briefly because of a contract dispute before returning, signing a contract with Chicago, and reporting to the AHL.

Quote:
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As for the Worsley comparable. Worsley was successful as a tandem goalie. He played one complete NHL season - conditioning was a major factor. As a stand alone goalie Worsley was rarely a factor. Harry Lumley played five complete NHL seasons and two where he missed one game.
If you really put a heavy emphasis on games played I guess that would be important. I don't though. And you are way underselling Worsley's games played record as a starter in New York. From 1954-55 to 1962-63, Worsley played in 532 regular season games, just 4 behind Jacques Plante over the same period and 39 more than Terry Sawchuk, and nobody calls either of those guys tandem goalies.


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12-09-2012, 05:41 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
Canadian Press, September 21, 1956



Lumley then apparently left training camp briefly because of a contract dispute before returning, signing a contract with Chicago, and reporting to the AHL.



If you really put a heavy emphasis on games played I guess that would be important. I don't though. And you are way underselling Worsley's games played record as a starter in New York. From 1954-55 to 1962-63, Worsley played in 532 regular season games, just 4 behind Jacques Plante over the same period and 39 more than Terry Sawchuk, and nobody calls either of those guys tandem goalies.
None of your links support your initial claim that Lumley was "beat out" by Al Rollins they just support the facts as they happened. Also the data was available before you posted the misleading information.

Worsley still averaged under 60 games per season during that stretch. Sawchuk missed a complete season and a half due to health reasons.

During the same period, Worsley was sent down to the AHL twice and shared time at the start of the 1960-61 season with Jack McCartan.

Also that was not my claim. As a stand alone goalie Gump Worsley managed to play most or parts of 10 seasons in the NHL between trips to the minors - 1953-54,1957-58, 1959-60(including 10 games when Al Rollins was preferred to him). His only success, team or individual was as a tandem goalie in Montreal. Plante and Sawchuk had individual and team success as stand alone goalies.

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12-09-2012, 11:40 AM
  #40
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Quote:
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Anybody here has an idea on how to separate Gump Worsley from George Hainsworth? As odd as it seems, those are two guys whose career seem somehow really similar.

While I do think TDMM was a bit harsh on Giacomin, I do indeed believe he shouldn't get serious Top-4 consideration. How is he THAT much different from Tiny Thompson? I don't know. Aside from the tandem thing... And even then, one of them played in a tandem-friendly era, the other didn't really.
I agree.

Giacomin's GAA is virtually the same in the regular season (2.82) as the playoffs (2.81) for his career. Hard to say he was great in the regular seasons and was horrible in the playoffs.

In his defense, 3 of his first 4 years in playoffs the Rangers were swept twice by the clearly superior Montreal teams and were beaten 4-2 by Boston in 1970. The Bruins went on to win the Cup by sweeping their next 2 seies. After that Giacomin's numbers aren't bad at all.

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12-09-2012, 11:57 AM
  #41
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1967 Game One

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I agree.

Giacomin's GAA is virtually the same in the regular season (2.82) as the playoffs (2.81) for his career. Hard to say he was great in the regular seasons and was horrible in the playoffs.

In his defense, 3 of his first 4 years in playoffs the Rangers were swept twice by the clearly superior Montreal teams and were beaten 4-2 by Boston in 1970. The Bruins went on to win the Cup by sweeping their next 2 seies. After that Giacomin's numbers aren't bad at all.
The GAA is misleading. Check the 1967 Game One meltdown at the half way mark of the third period converting a 4-1 Ranger lead into a 4-6 loss.

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hsppogames.cgi

Ed Giacomic tended to repeat such performances..

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12-09-2012, 04:49 PM
  #42
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Quote:
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I agree.

Giacomin's GAA is virtually the same in the regular season (2.82) as the playoffs (2.81) for his career. Hard to say he was great in the regular seasons and was horrible in the playoffs.

In his defense, 3 of his first 4 years in playoffs the Rangers were swept twice by the clearly superior Montreal teams and were beaten 4-2 by Boston in 1970. The Bruins went on to win the Cup by sweeping their next 2 seies. After that Giacomin's numbers aren't bad at all.
I posted this in the last All Time Draft. Seems appropriate to re-post here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Ed Giacomin in the playoffs:

The stats: 29-35, one career shutout, 2.81 GAA.

Giacomin's legacy is based off the regular seasons from 1966-67 to 1970-71 when he was a 2x 1st Teamer and 3x 2nd Teamer. He got very little All Star consideration outside this time frame.

1967:

Giacomin was a 1st Team All Star almost by default. He started 68 games, Crozier started 58 for a non-playoff Detroit team and no other goalie started more than 44.

Giacomin's 2.61 GAA in the regular season ballooned to 3.41 in the playoffs as NY was swept by a Montreal team that only had 5 points more than them in the regular season. NY had a 4-1 lead with 10 minutes left in game 1 and lost 6-4.

1968:

Giacomin is a 2nd Team All Star to Gump Worsley.

His GAA goes from 2.44 in the regular season to 3.00 in a first round loss to a Chicago team that finished 10 points behind the Rangers in the standings.

1969:

Giacomin is a 2nd Team All Star to a 37 year old Glenn Hall.

In the playoffs, his GAA went from 2.55 in the regular season to 3.33 in the playoffs. The Rangers were swept in the first round by a Montreal team that finished 12 points ahead of them in the standings. Giacomin, who led the regular season in games played, only played 3 of the 4 games in the playoffs.

1970:

Giacomin was a 2nd Team All Star to a young Tony Esposito.

His 2.36 GAA in the regular season became 4.07 in the playoffs. Hard to tell how bad it was as it was against the Bobby Orr Bruins (who finished 7 points ahead in the regular season) but Giacomin, who again led the league in regular season starts only played 5 of 6 in the first round loss.

1971:

Giacomin was a 1st team All Star (and I'm not going to second guess the voters based of retroactive save % like TCG).

Giacomin was pretty good in the playoffs (finally). His team lost in the Conference finals to a very good Chicago team and his 2.16 GAA in the regular season only went up to 2.21.

After 1971:

Giacomin was no longer a top goalie in the regular season.

In 1972 and 1973, he platooned with Gilles Villemure, and Villemure received more All Star votes than Giacomin both seasons. Starting in 1974, Neither Giacomin nor Villemure recieved a single vote for the AS teams.

In the 1972 playoffs, Giacomin was 6-4 with a decent 2.70 GAA and Villemure was 4-2 with a 2.33 GAA as the Rangers lost in the Cup finals to the Bobby Orr Bruins.

Giacomin was the man in the playoffs for the Rangers in both 1973 and 1974, despite platooning in the regular season. Both years he put up solid but unspectacular stats in the playoffs as his team lost in the second round both times. He recorded the only playoff shutout of his career in 1973.

In 1975, Giacomin lost his only two starts in the playoffs. He was then traded to Detroit where he finished His career as a backup.

In summary:

Giacomin had a 5 year stretch as the 1st or 2nd best regular season goalie in the league, against fairly weak competition. His playoff record was horrendous for the first four years of the stretch.

Outside of this 5 year stretch, he received very little All-Star consideration as he settled into a platoon situation. His playoff numbers were solid but unspectacular (as they were in the last of his 5 years as a top regular season guy).
Giacomin is a worthy HHOFer (short prime, but 5 straight years as a 1st or 2nd Team AS is very good even against soso competition). But we're talking about the best of all time here, and he has to have the worst playoff record of anyone who has come up to vote yet, right? I mean, Tony Esposito had his awful moments at the worst times in the playoffs, but he also was very solid at other times.


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12-09-2012, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I posted this in the last All Time Draft. Seems appropriate to re-post here.



Giacomin is a worthy HHOFer (short prime, but 5 straight years as a 1st or 2nd Team AS is very good even against soso competition). But we're talking about the best of all time here, and he has to have the worst playoff record of anyone who has come up to vote yet, right? I mean, Tony Esposito had his awful moments at the worst times in the playoffs, but he also was very solid at other times.
Toss-up between the two for worst playoff goalie in the post 1967 expansion era.

Gump Worsley was poor his first three playoffs with the Rangers:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...worslgu01.html

but redeemed himself in 1962 and with the Canadiens.

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12-09-2012, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Lumley was a bit young in the 40ies, but SEEMS to have been the 5th best goalie in the league in the Post-WWII era.
And the evidence for this is? Pretty hard to rank the goalies that precisely in this era. Also you got to take into account the strength of the teams. How does anyone know how good Lumley was in those 2 years on terrible Blackhawk teams. Must have impressed Leaf management since they traded Rollins for him.

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12-09-2012, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
And the evidence for this is? Pretty hard to rank the goalies that precisely in this era. Also you got to take into account the strength of the teams. How does anyone know how good Lumley was in those 2 years on terrible Blackhawk teams. Must have impressed Leaf management since they traded Rollins for him.
Actually Leafs trade Al Rollins plus Gus Mortson, Cal Gardner and Ray Hannigan for Harry Lumley, September 11, 1952.

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12-09-2012, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Actually Leafs trade Al Rollins plus Gus Mortson, Cal Gardner and Ray Hannigan for Harry Lumley, September 11, 1952.
Thank you. Obviously Toronto thought very highly of old apple-cheeks.

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12-09-2012, 08:03 PM
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Context

Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Thank you. Obviously Toronto thought very highly of old apple-cheeks.
In the context of recent trades involving goalies - Roy, Hasek, Halak, as a few examples,the Leafs gave a lot for Lumley at that time.

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12-09-2012, 08:11 PM
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With the majority of the accomplishments of Hap Holmes and Hugh Lehman happening in the western rival leagues to the NHL, and George Hainsworth having a few good years there too, perhaps it is helpful to look at the complete All Star records of the leagues. When a 2nd Teamer is listed, he's in (parenthesis).

PCHA All Star Goalies

1912: Hugh Lehman
1913: Bert Lindsay
1914: Hugh Lehman
1915: Hugh Lehman
1916: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1917: Hec Fowler (Hap Holmes)
1918: Hugh Lehman (Hec Fowler)
1919: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1920: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1921: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1922: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1923: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1924: Hugh Lehman

Hugh Lehman played in the PCHA every year during this time frame. Hap Holmes joined the league in 1916 and 1917, then spent 1918 in the NHL. Holmes returned to the PCHA from 1919-1924.

After 1924, the PCHA folded and some of its teams and most of the best players joined the WCHL.

WCHL/WHA All Stars

The WCHA changed its name to WHL for 1926.

1922: no 1st Teamer listed (Bill Laird)
1923: Hal Winkler (Bill Laird)
1924: Hugh McCusker
1925: Hap Holmes
1926: George Hainsworth

Hap Holmes and Hugh Lehman both joined the WCHL for 1924-25 after the PCHA folded. Holmes was 36 years old and had a few more good years left, Lehman was 39 years old and appeared to finally be on the decline (though he would play until the age of 41 with 1 final season in the NHL in 1926-27).

George Hainsworth had a long career in the OHA before joining the WCHL in 1923-24 at the age of 28. He doesn't appear to have immediately impressed. But by the 1925 playoffs, an article stated that Hap Holmes and George Hainsworth were "head and shoulders" above the rest of the goalies in the league (via Mike Farkas). Which makes sense, considering the quality of WCHL goalies before 1924-25 doesn't appear to have been high.

After 1926, the WHL folded. The best players joined the NHL.
_____________________

Hap Holmes' was a mercenary who was sought after by competitive teams:

Senior hockey (OHA) from 1908-1912.
Toronto Blueshirts (NHA) from 1913-1915. Cup in 1914.
Seattle Metropolitans (PCHA) from 1916-1917. Cup in 1917.
Toronto Arena (NHL) in 1918. Cup in 1918.
Seattle Metropolitans (PCHA) from 1919-1924.
Victoria Cougars (WCHL/WHL) from 1925-1926. Cup in 1925
Detroit Cougars (NHL) from 1927-1928.

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12-09-2012, 08:22 PM
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ASTs in the PCHA

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
With the majority of the accomplishments of Hap Holmes and Hugh Lehman happening in the western rival leagues to the NHL, and George Hainsworth having a few good years there too, perhaps it is helpful to look at the complete All Star records of the leagues. When a 2nd Teamer is listed, he's in (parenthesis).

PCHA All Star Goalies

1912: Hugh Lehman
1913: Bert Lindsay
1914: Hugh Lehman
1915: Hugh Lehman
1916: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1917: Hec Fowler (Hap Holmes)
1918: Hugh Lehman (Hec Fowler)
1919: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1920: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1921: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1922: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1923: Hugh Lehman (Hap Holmes)
1924: Hugh Lehman

Hugh Lehman played in the PCHA every year during this time frame. Hap Holmes joined the league in 1916 and 1917, then spent 1918 in the NHL. Holmes returned to the PCHA from 1919-1924.

After 1924, the PCHA folded and some of its teams and most of the best players joined the WCHL.

WCHL/WHA All Stars

The WCHA changed its name to WHL for 1926.

1922: no 1st Teamer listed (Bill Laird)
1923: Hal Winkler (Bill Laird)
1924: Hugh McCusker
1925: Hap Holmes
1926: George Hainsworth

Hap Holmes and Hugh Lehman both joined the WCHL for 1924-25 after the PCHA folded. Holmes was 36 years old and had a few more good years left, Lehman was 39 years old and appeared to finally be on the decline (though he would play until the age of 41 with 1 final season in the NHL in 1926-27).

George Hainsworth had a long career in the OHA before joining the WCHL in 1923-24 at the age of 28. He doesn't appear to have immediately impressed. But by the 1925 playoffs, an article stated that Hap Holmes and George Hainsworth were "head and shoulders" above the rest of the goalies in the league (via Mike Farkas). Which makes sense, considering the quality of WCHL goalies before 1924-25 doesn't appear to have been high.

After 1926, the WHL folded. The best players joined the NHL.
_____________________

Hap Holmes' was a mercenary who was sought after by competitive teams:

Senior hockey (OHA) from 1908-1912.
Toronto Blueshirts (NHA) from 1913-1915. Cup in 1914.
Seattle Metropolitans (PCHA) from 1916-1917. Cup in 1917.
Toronto Arena (NHL) in 1918. Cup in 1918.
Seattle Metropolitans (PCHA) from 1919-1924.
Victoria Cougars (WCHL/WHL) from 1925-1926. Cup in 1925
Detroit Cougars (NHL) from 1927-1928.
The PCHA ASTs seem to be the singular opinion of Mickey Ion, not a consensus of coaches or media types:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Ion

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12-09-2012, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The PCHA ASTs seem to be the singular opinion of Mickey Ion, not a consensus of coaches or media types:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Ion
This has been pointed out so many times, I didn't feel the need to post it every time I mention the PCHA All-Star teams.

Mickey Ion, chief ref of the PCHA, picked the PCHA all-star teams by himself. In a previous post, I speculated as to whether he reffed all PCHA games, but the link you provide just mentions "4-5 games per week."

I'm not sure the original source of the WCHL All Star Teams.

Ion's opinion of Lehman is supported (though not on a year by year basis) by newspapers and by his early induction into the Hockey Hall of fame.

_________________________

From Nalyd Psycho's profile of Lehman, here is some of the newspaper praise he received:

Western papers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina The Morning Leader - Oct 28, 1914
As a goalkeeper, Lesueur is still in a class by himself. They talk about Moran, Holmes, Vezina and others, but the only net guardian capable of giving Lesuer a run for the honours is Hugh Lehman
This was 1914 and Vezina and Benedict probably didn't hit their strides until a few years later. Suggests that as of 1914, Leseuer and Lehman were considered the best goalies in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina The Morning Leader - Feb 26, 1919
and last but not least, the goal-minders, who have demonstrated that they can stop the hard shots a la George Vezina and Hugh Lehman.
Suggests that as of 1919, Vezina and Lehman were the goalies all other goalies were compared to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Regina Morning Leader Friday October 31st 1924
His contract reposes in the club's strong box, and Mr. Patrick sighed with relief when he recieved it, for Lehman has no peer today as a custodian.
One of the super-stars of the game, Lehman has no counterpart in sport on the continent
Lehman was considered the best goalie in the world (including Vezina and Benedict) by Western observers. But I would imagine they were only familiar with the Eastern leagues from the Cup finals.

Eastern Papers

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Toronto World - Oct 28, 1915
Hugh Lehman, the best goaltender in the game, will be between the flags
Suggests that before Vezina hit his stride, Lehman was considered the best goalie in the world even in the East, despite limited chances at viewing him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Toronto World - Nov 18, 1916
Holmes work last season was sensational at times, but he had nothing on Hugh Lehman
Supports Mickey Ion's opinion of the 1915-16 PCHA season where he gave Lehman 1st Team and Holmes 2nd Team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen - Mar 18, 1922
Hugh Lehman who has been a star for the last twenty years. And it could not be said that youth was served to the detriment of Lehman this time, as the veteran played equally as well as the St. Patrick's wizard.
Not really comparing him to any goalie in particular, but shows that he was getting press a "star" for the last 20 years even in the East.

Hugh Lehman will almost certainly be 1st on my list this round.


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