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Old
12-09-2012, 08:21 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
How am I contradicting my argument, how did you arrive at this? My whole premise is that Grabo would not have been part of a championship team when you examine the quality of centers that have played for these Cup winning teams, if you can make a case Grabo is equal or better than any of these past C's that won a championship, then do so, I am listening. If you can't my point has been made, it is crystal clear and based on 100% fact.

Kopitar 76pts
Mike Richards 44pts missed 8 games 15pts playoffs
Krejci 62pts missed 7 games 23pts playoffs
Bergeron 57pts 20pts playoffs
Carter 61pts missed 8 games
Mike Richards 62pts 23pts playoffs
Sharp 66pts 22pts Playoffs
Toews 68pts 29pts Playoffs+Cup
Malkin 113pts 36pts playoffs
Crosby 103pts
Zetterberg 92
Datsyuk 97pts
Getzlaf 58pts 17pts (team high in playoffs) playoffs+Cup
Mcdonald 78pts
Brind'Amour 70pts
Staal 100 pts
That case has already been made many times in the past by multiple people (and your lists fixed as well). And there are some that are worse or equal to Grabovski, even though that isn't the point, and it is a highly, highly flawed way of making comparisons anyway.

Grabovski would be one of the best 6 forwards on most if not all cup-contending teams. Prove otherwise or shut up already.

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12-09-2012, 08:26 PM
  #352
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An argument based on ifs, hardly compelling for a player that has never seen a NHL playoff game. Quite a leap to claim he could replace any top 6 fwd on a cup winner isn't it?
No, it is really not. He is firmly a top-6 forward on every team, and there is no reason to believe he would not fare just as well if not better in the playoffs.

I guess Tavares isn't a top-6 player on a good team either, eh?

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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
BTW correction, he isn't a winger because we simply don't know for certain because it hasn't been tried. But after 4 years of a good center for an awful team, not a cup winner. I am willing to try a tunnel visioned mediocre center in comparison to the rest of the league on the wing. Nothing to lose.
Nice back-tracking. No wait, no it's not.

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12-09-2012, 08:28 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
That case has already been made many times in the past by multiple people (and your lists fixed as well). And there are some that are worse or equal to Grabovski, even though that isn't the point, and it is a highly, highly flawed way of making comparisons anyway.

Grabovski would be one of the best 6 forwards on most if not all cup-contending teams. Prove otherwise or shut up already.
You changing the goalposts again is amusing, and points to one that cannot counter argue a point, you just said Grabo is not a winger yet you keep clinging to the top 6 fwd hail mary, when you cannot justify Grabo replacing one of the Centers on actual cup winners I presented. I deal in facts, where your argument is based on a lot of what ifs and changing goalposts.

Ping, bang. Drop.

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12-09-2012, 08:29 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
No, it is really not. He is firmly a top-6 forward on every team, and there is no reason to believe he would not fare just as well if not better in the playoffs.

I guess Tavares isn't a top-6 player on a good team either, eh?


Nice back-tracking. No wait, no it's not.
Ping. Nice more attempts at misdirection.

I think Tavares could been equal to Richards last year. He's a young player who is on the verge of being something special and he was quite instrumental in Team Canada's gold medal at the Worlds.

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12-09-2012, 08:40 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You changing the goalposts again is amusing, and points to one that cannot counter argue a point, you just said Grabo is not a winger yet you keep clinging to the top 6 fwd hail mary, when you cannot justify Grabo replacing one of the Centers on actual cup winners I presented. I deal in facts, where your argument is based on a lot of what ifs and changing goalposts.

Ping, bang. Drop.
Lol, I'm not changing the goalposts at all. I don't even see how you can come to that conclusion.

Grabovski replacing those centers has been justified multiple times (some even by me right now), as I stated. I saw where those discussions went and your delusions, so I am not going to waste my time explaining it to you for the 10th time.

And top-6 forwards is not changing the goalposts either. It is looking at things realistically. Grabovski is a top-6 forward on every team. Some teams have good center depth. Some teams have good winger depth. That doesn't mean that just because some contenders already have two great centers in their top-6, that Grabovski does not belong on the top-6 of a contender.

Does Carter not belong in the top-6 of a contender, just because Richards and Kopitar are better centers?

So stop pinging yourself in the head and either prove that Grabovski is not a top-6 forward, or shut up already.

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12-09-2012, 08:41 PM
  #356
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I think Tavares could been equal to Richards last year. He's a young player who is on the verge of being something special and he was quite instrumental in Team Canada's gold medal at the Worlds.
But NYI haven't gone anywhere with him. OBVIOUSLY, according to your logic, that means he is not worthy of being a top-6 player.

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12-09-2012, 08:43 PM
  #357
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Graboo is a number 2 centreman on a fifth last placed team.

Which means he is a number 3 on a good team and probably a depth winger on a contending team.

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12-09-2012, 08:47 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Lol, I'm not changing the goalposts at all. I don't even see how you can come to that conclusion.

Grabovski replacing those centers has been justified multiple times (some even by me right now), as I stated. I saw where those discussions went and your delusions, so I am not going to waste my time explaining it to you for the 10th time.

And top-6 forwards is not changing the goalposts either. It is looking at things realistically. Grabovski is a top-6 forward on every team. Some teams have good center depth. Some teams have good winger depth. That doesn't mean that just because some contenders already have two great centers in their top-6, that Grabovski does not belong on the top-6 of a contender.

Did Carter not belong on LA, despite Kopitar and Richards being better centers?

So stop pinging yourself in the head and either prove that Grabovski is not a top-6 forward, or shut up already.
So your whole argument is based on ifs, and your opinion.

Justified how? How is Grabo a #1 or #2 C on every team in the NHL? I wonder if you actually believe what you write when Pittsburg has Crosby and Malkin, is Grabo going to ask Bysma to replace one of them on the top 2 lines? A guy that has not played one NHL playoff game. Got that, never played in one NHL playoff game at nearing the ripe age of 29.

Changing the goalposts is stating Grabo could have been a top 6 fwd on any of the cup winners we have been discussing, when you know fair well he is a center.

You are spinning bro, maybe you should just bow out of this discussion. Grasping at straws does not a point make.

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12-09-2012, 08:50 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Graboo is a number 2 centreman on a fifth last placed team.
Playing on the "second line" isn't really relevant (and debatable in itself, considering Mac/Grabo/Kulemin faced the toughest competition of any line last season). He's far and away the best center on the team, and would be the first or second-best center on most NHL teams.

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12-09-2012, 08:51 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Graboo is a number 2 centreman on a fifth last placed team.

Which means he is a number 3 on a good team and probably a depth winger on a contending team.
Congrats, I wish I could give you a prize.

The reality is he is a #2C on a 25th place team. But the posters(jksilverstick and co) above seems to leap to the conclusion he can be a top 6 fwd whatever that spin means, or what is more accurate a #2c on a cup winning championship team.

In the world of Amazing what ifs, it's the grand canyon of what ifs.

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12-09-2012, 08:58 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
But NYI haven't gone anywhere with him. OBVIOUSLY, according to your logic, that means he is not worthy of being a top-6 player.
Was that my entire argument?

I gather you know it isn't. If you don't know by now, you are surely lost. I don't draw diagrams. But I will give you some credit you know my arguments. If not you should by now or maybe you are indeed lost.

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12-09-2012, 09:01 PM
  #362
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If The Leafs acquired Kopitar and Richards, I can see some here lobbying for Grabo for top 6 mins.

Really....

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12-09-2012, 09:02 PM
  #363
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Playing on the "second line" isn't really relevant (and debatable in itself, considering Mac/Grabo/Kulemin faced the toughest competition of any line last season). He's far and away the best center on the team, and would be the first or second-best center on most NHL teams.
he isn't even close to a first line center on most NHL teams because he's been a second line center on one of the worst teams in the league.

this should be common sense.

He could be a second line center on some NHL teams but not good teams and certainly not contending teams.

He would be a 3rd line center or a depth winger.

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12-09-2012, 09:04 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Congrats, I wish I could give you a prize.

The reality is he is a #2C on a 25th place team. But the posters(jksilverstick and co) above seems to leap to the conclusion he can be a top 6 fwd whatever that spin means, or what is more accurate a #2c on a cup winning championship team.

In the world of Amazing what ifs, it's the grand canyon of what ifs.
i accept paypal transfers.

yeah, ridiculous arguments being made here. i agree.

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12-09-2012, 09:09 PM
  #365
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i accept paypal transfers.

yeah, ridiculous arguments being made here. i agree.
The Grabo fans here seem to forget Grabo is competing for ice time with the likes of John Mitchell, Mat Lombardi, or Mat Stajan.

Not good centers on good teams, I agree it is beyond ridiculous to say he would be a top 2 C on the better teams. #3 maybe, but again The #3C is a role playing position, usually reserved for a faceoff man with a physical checking edge. Not exactly Grabo.

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12-09-2012, 09:14 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
The Grabo fans here seem to forget Grabo is competing for ice time with the likes of John Mitchell, Mat Lombardi, or Mat Stajan.

Not good centers on good teams, I agree it is beyond ridiculous to say he would be a top 2 C on the better teams. #3 maybe, but again The #3C is a role playing position, usually reserved for a faceoff man with a physical checking edge. Not exactly Grabo.
that's exactly why i said he could be a depth winger on a good or contending team!

I agree with your position on Grab. I think people overlook his lack of talent with the heart and courage he shows some nights.

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12-09-2012, 09:16 PM
  #367
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Justified how? How is Grabo a #1 or #2 C on every team in the NHL? I wonder if you actually believe what you write when Pittsburg has Crosby and Malkin, is Grabo going to ask Bysma to replace one of them on the top 2 lines? A guy that has not played one NHL playoff game. Got that, never played in one NHL playoff game at nearing the ripe age of 29.

Changing the goalposts is stating Grabo could have been a top 6 fwd on any of the cup winners we have been discussing, when you know fair well he is a center.
Way to avoid all the points brought against you, as usual.

Grabovski might not be the 1st or 2nd center on every team in the league, but he is one of the top 6 forwards on every team in the league, even contenders. Which means that having him as our #2 center is not an issue. The players that surround him are. And even that is not an issue because we had no problem scoring last season.

How many playoff games he has played is irrelevant.

Either prove to me that Grabovski is not a top-6 forward on even contending teams, or your entire argument is wrong and useless. Simple fact.

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12-09-2012, 09:21 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Way to avoid all the points brought against you, as usual.

Grabovski might not be the 1st or 2nd center on every team in the league, but he is one of the top 6 forwards on every team in the league, even contenders. Which means that having him as our #2 center is not an issue. The players that surround him are. And even that is not an issue because we had no problem scoring last season.

How many playoff games he has played is irrelevant.

Either prove to me that Grabovski is not a top-6 forward on even contending teams, or your entire argument is wrong and useless. Simple fact.
Grabovski is not a top 6 forward on even a good team because he is currently a top 6 forward on a bad team (that's the opposite of a contending team for your information).

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12-09-2012, 09:27 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Way to avoid all the points brought against you, as usual.

Grabovski might not be the 1st or 2nd center on every team in the league, but he is one of the top 6 forwards on every team in the league, even contenders. Which means that having him as our #2 center is not an issue. The players that surround him are. And even that is not an issue because we had no problem scoring last season.

How many playoff games he has played is irrelevant.

Either prove to me that Grabovski is not a top-6 forward on even contending teams, or your entire argument is wrong and useless. Simple fact.
Grabo is not a central piece, Kessel is. You don't build a team around Grabo. You are blind to the fact that Grabo would not be a support top 6 Center if the Leafs were actually a good team. I'm not sure it is sinking in on your brain cells as much as people try to tell you he isn't.

Playoff games are irrevelant? since when? Success leaves clues, there is a reason why players like Toews, Chara, and or Neidermayer make the playoffs and win championships, winning follows them around. And there is a reason why some players never make the playoffs.

But to you, you probably think this is just a coincidence.

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12-09-2012, 09:30 PM
  #370
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Looking at rosters, Grabovski has a top six place on Edmonton, Montreal, Columbus, Island, Calgary, and Anaheim.

So not one playoff team would need him in a second line centre position. This is also right now. Montreal has a number one centre in the pipeline, Columbus has one too.

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12-09-2012, 09:31 PM
  #371
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Grabovski is not a top 6 forward on even a good team because he is currently a top 6 forward on a bad team (that's the opposite of a contending team for your information).
That sentence is not logical.

Are all forwards on bad teams incapable of being top-6 forwards on good teams? Boy, wonder why the trade deadline is a stream of players from bad teams to good teams then. Boy, wonder why players on bad teams are picked for international tournaments ahead of guys on better teams. Wonder why NYR traded for Nash. I guess they want to lose.

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12-09-2012, 09:35 PM
  #372
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That sentence is not logical.

Are all forwards on bad teams incapable of being top-6 forwards on good teams? Boy, wonder why the trade deadline is a stream of players from bad teams to good teams then. Boy, wonder why players on bad teams are picked for international tournaments ahead of guys on better teams. Wonder why NYR traded for Nash. I guess they want to lose.
Let's use our brains and not our hearts.

Grabo is on a really bad team (Leafs). He's the second line centre.

If Grabo was on a really good team (contending), he would not be a second line centre.

If the Leafs (a really bad team) want to contend (stretch-goal), Grabovski can't be a second line center.

How's that for logic........

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12-09-2012, 09:35 PM
  #373
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The awkward moment you can't tell if someone is trolling or not because of how insanely stupid what they're saying is

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12-09-2012, 09:36 PM
  #374
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Grabo is not a central piece, Kessel is. You don't build a team around Grabo. You are blind to the fact that Grabo would not be a support top 6 Center if the Leafs were actually a good team. I'm not sure it is sinking in on your brain cells as much as people try to tell you he isn't.

Playoff games are irrevelant? since when? Success leaves clues, there is a reason why players like Toews, Chara, and or Neidermayer make the playoffs and win championships, winning follows them around. And there is a reason why some players never make the playoffs.
I agree, you don't build a team around Grabovski. That means nothing. You never build your team around every top-6 forward.

Playoffs are not irrelevant, but whether a player has played in them or not is, and has no connection to how good of a player they are.

There is nobody else who is telling me your insane theories. Just you and your dog. In fact, look back and see everybody else was trying to knock some sense out of you and just gave up because you're obviously too stubborn to comprehend reality or just trolling.

Once again, either prove Grabovski is not a top-6 forward on a contending team, or GTFO. Simple.

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12-09-2012, 09:39 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Let's use our brains and not our hearts.

Grabo is on a really bad team (Leafs). He's the second line centre.

If Grabo was on a really good team (contending), he would not be a second line centre.

If the Leafs (a really bad team) want to contend (stretch-goal), Grabovski can't be a second line center.

How's that for logic........
That is not logic. Like not in a logical sentence is wrong kind of way. It's simply not logic. There is no connecting point. It is actually kind of funny that you think it is.

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