HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

CONFIRMED: RNH will attend camp!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-09-2012, 02:40 PM
  #51
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,311
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Most of these guys playing won't be in the NHL next year. Actually most of them won't be NHLers ever. Even Team Canada averages between 50%-75% future NHL regulars on their teams.


Its not so much the star players but the average one that determine how tough the level of competition is. And the average WJC player on a top 4 (Sweden, Russia, USA, Canada) team is going to be an average to above average non-NHL professional league player after 1-3 more years of development.

Same reason the NCAA is a tough league than the CHL. The extra years makes a huge difference when we are talking about ages 18-23.
The question started out to be whether Nugent-Hopkins would grow or benefit more by continuing to play in the AHL or by playing in the WJC. I'm not suggesting that he would in any way grow by playing in the WJC, but neither will he be harmed by missing a month and a half or so from the AHL. My opinion is that the level of hockey in the AHL is markedly below the NHL, and that in fact much of the NHL is steeped in mediocrity. Athletes get better by competing against those who are as good or better than they are, not those who are clearly not as good.

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 02:54 PM
  #52
Cfriss216
Registered User
 
Cfriss216's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Country: United States
Posts: 303
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Awful decision for his development. imo
We all don't think this way...I apologize

Cfriss216 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:02 PM
  #53
Toydarian
Registered User
 
Toydarian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,501
vCash: 500
Will RNH be the first ever to play in the WHC BEFORE playing in the WJHC?

Toydarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:05 PM
  #54
Mr Writer
Registered User
 
Mr Writer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toydarian View Post
Will RNH be the first ever to play in the WHC BEFORE playing in the WJHC?
No, Patrice Bergeron played in the 2004 World Championships winning gold before in 2005 thanks to a Gary Bettman lockout played in the Junior championship winning gold and was tournament MVP on the best team in the history of the World Junior Championship.

Mr Writer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:08 PM
  #55
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toydarian View Post
Will RNH be the first ever to play in the WHC BEFORE playing in the WJHC?
Patrice Bergeron. Gold at 2004 WHC. Gold at 2005 WJC.

Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:17 PM
  #56
Howboutthempanthers
No Bandwagon Allowed
 
Howboutthempanthers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Brow. County, Fl.
Country: United States
Posts: 3,848
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Awful decision for his development. imo
Huh? If it is, then he wasn't that good in the first place.(And he is that good)

Howboutthempanthers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:20 PM
  #57
Xokkeu
Registered User
 
Xokkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Frozen
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 4,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
So the secret to success in hockey is being big and old? People complain, and justifiably, about the fact that are too many teams and not enough talent in the NHL. Now you say that guys who aren't good enough to make the NHL could easily defeat any WJC team whose players will be in the NHL or its equivalent next year. We'll never know for sure, of course, but I strongly doubt that big and old wins out against talent and ability.


1
So you're saying you're just going to make stuff up and pretend I said it? Sorry, but comments like



"So the secret to success in hockey is being big and old?"

just makes me want to call you names and not respond in an adult manner to you. It's just unbelievably frustrating trying to have a discussion when someone can't even read what you write without going off the rails on some red herring like this. I write this with caution, because I'm not sure you'll even bother reading it without responding, "so the secret to success in hockey is having brass knuckles and a beard" or some other random unrelated comment.

The AHL is a higher level than any U20 league. Hockey is a physical sport and physical development is a major factor, and a reason why 18 year olds can rarely compete with 25 year old professionals. There is a reason that European U20 teams have scrimmaged CIS teams and lost. It'd be better for Nugent-Hopkins to play in the NHL, but since he can't the AHL is the next best league for him to play. He won't gain anything from playing in the U20s competitive wise.

Xokkeu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:23 PM
  #58
Xokkeu
Registered User
 
Xokkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Frozen
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 4,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The question started out to be whether Nugent-Hopkins would grow or benefit more by continuing to play in the AHL or by playing in the WJC. I'm not suggesting that he would in any way grow by playing in the WJC, but neither will he be harmed by missing a month and a half or so from the AHL. My opinion is that the level of hockey in the AHL is markedly below the NHL, and that in fact much of the NHL is steeped in mediocrity. Athletes get better by competing against those who are as good or better than they are, not those who are clearly not as good.
You directly said that

Quote:
The level of play at the WJC is likely higher than the AHL
which would sort of suggest you think that he'd benefit in the U20s because it's higher than the AHL.

Xokkeu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:46 PM
  #59
Yakushev72
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,311
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
So you're saying you're just going to make stuff up and pretend I said it? Sorry, but comments like



"So the secret to success in hockey is being big and old?"

just makes me want to call you names and not respond in an adult manner to you. It's just unbelievably frustrating trying to have a discussion when someone can't even read what you write without going off the rails on some red herring like this. I write this with caution, because I'm not sure you'll even bother reading it without responding, "so the secret to success in hockey is having brass knuckles and a beard" or some other random unrelated comment.

The AHL is a higher level than any U20 league. Hockey is a physical sport and physical development is a major factor, and a reason why 18 year olds can rarely compete with 25 year old professionals. There is a reason that European U20 teams have scrimmaged CIS teams and lost. It'd be better for Nugent-Hopkins to play in the NHL, but since he can't the AHL is the next best league for him to play. He won't gain anything from playing in the U20s competitive wise.
So what you're saying is that the secret to success is having brass knuckles and a beard! (Just kidding!).

I understand the principle of physical development and its relationship to age, and I also understand that the AHL sells itself as a league where you are going to see a lot of heavy hits and fights. In many of the cities in which the AHL operates, Oklahoma City being a case in point, the "fans" have no knowledge of or prior experience with hockey. They connote hockey with blood and gore, and view hockey players as kick boxers on skates. That's the entertainment factor that the AHL fans expect to have presented to them. The fans, who have mostly never laced up skates in their lives, wouldn't know or appreciate nifty stickhandling if they saw it.

My point was that Nugent-Hopkins will only benefit from his experience in the AHL if he develops a more physical, bruising style of play. If he learns to target people, get in some cheap shots, drop his gloves and knock some teeth out, then he will have grown from the AHL. Otherwise, he will have benefited not one iota. I don't know what the CIS, but I feel certain that if you took the very best U20 national teams and put them up against your average AHL group of goons, playing under international rules with international referees, I'll take skill and speed over the heavy hitters.

Yakushev72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:49 PM
  #60
Soundwave
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,149
vCash: 500
Nugent Hopkins already plays just fine at the NHL level.

His development really doesn't "need" either the AHL or World Juniors, it's just a fun and meaningful experience for him to have so why not.

His development ultimately will likely be buoyed most by the natural development of his body, most kids obviously get a lot stronger between the age of 17/18 and 20/21 and he's going through that right now.

Soundwave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:51 PM
  #61
Xokkeu
Registered User
 
Xokkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Frozen
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 4,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Nugent Hopkins already plays just fine at the NHL level.

His development really doesn't "need" either the AHL or World Juniors, it's just a fun and meaningful experience for him to have so why not.

His development ultimately will likely be buoyed most by the natural development of his body, most kids obviously get a lot stronger between the age of 17/18 and 20/21 and he's going through that right now.

Xokkeu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:52 PM
  #62
Leafs87
Mr. Steal Your Job
 
Leafs87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Richmond Hill
Country: Romania
Posts: 4,450
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Awful decision for his development. imo
When has junior time, and leadership roles ever hurt a player's development ?

Leafs87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 04:08 PM
  #63
SauceHockey
Retired
 
SauceHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: p
Country: Tokelau
Posts: 4,002
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The level of play at the WJC is likely higher than the AHL, even with a few more NHL'ers than normal. The AHL is made up of guys who aren't good enough to play in an NHL that is already seriously watered down in terms of talent.
No the AHL is full of grown men while the WJC is full of kids who are still growing and are not physically developped. An AHL team would destroy a WJC physically no matter how skilled the U20 players are

SauceHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 04:10 PM
  #64
alanschu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchey View Post
Yeah, cause an NHLER missing 3-4 weeks out of the AHL season to lead his national team and do something he'll never get another chance to do is a huge blow to his development.
We can argue until the cows come home about the level of impact it will have on his development, but anyone that sees attending the WJC as being a positive for his development has blinders on.

The reality is people want him to go to the WJC because he's an excellent player and will help tip the scales in Canada's favour.

For Ryan, he'll have fun and get to experience something that he wants to do, but it's not the best decision for becoming a better player. Most of the players he'll be playing against won't even get a lick of ice time in the AHL, let alone the NHL. They definitely wouldn't be productive AHL players now. This goes for most of his teammates too.


As for how much this will affect his development is only known based on how much challenge he is getting in the AHL. He's playing well, and if he's not finding the league particularly challenging, then going back to play in the Juniors will not affect his development much.

alanschu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 04:13 PM
  #65
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
When has junior time, and leadership roles ever hurt a player's development ?
Exactly.

Now if you asked when had it hurt a young player's development when:
1. They aren't physically mature enough to handle the rigors of playing against men.
2. They can't handle the grind of an 82 game schedule.
3. They are played under 10 minutes a game on the bottom two lines with no support and not asked to play to their skill set.
4. Played out of their natural position to try to squeeze them into an offensive role.

Well then, I'd say that happens way too bloody often. As good as the 2003 draft class was, I'm convinced to this day that the extra year those players all had to develop in the minors or juniors are a big reason why so many of them succeeded.

Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 04:17 PM
  #66
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
We can argue until the cows come home about the level of impact it will have on his development, but anyone that sees attending the WJC as being a positive for his development has blinders on.

The reality is people want him to go to the WJC because he's an excellent player and will help tip the scales in Canada's favour.

For Ryan, he'll have fun and get to experience something that he wants to do, but it's not the best decision for becoming a better player. Most of the players he'll be playing against won't even get a lick of ice time in the AHL, let alone the NHL. They definitely wouldn't be productive AHL players now. This goes for most of his teammates too.


As for how much this will affect his development is only known based on how much challenge he is getting in the AHL. He's playing well, and if he's not finding the league particularly challenging, then going back to play in the Juniors will not affect his development much.
He is going to be in a leadership role in an international tournament that is a very high pressure situation based on Canada's expectations. If you can't see how that alone will help in his development, you are the one with blinders on.

Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 04:18 PM
  #67
alanschu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Now you say that guys who aren't good enough to make the NHL could easily defeat any WJC team whose players will be in the NHL or its equivalent next year.
The advantage is going to be more mental than physical.

I'm literally a less talented basketball player than I was when I was 18. I don't have the same physical skills now that I'm 31 and haven't been playing a whole lot. Paradoxically, I contribute much more on my men's league teams simply because I'm mentally stronger and less intimidated and afraid.


I'd bet money on any AHL team winning the WJC.

alanschu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 04:22 PM
  #68
Leafs87
Mr. Steal Your Job
 
Leafs87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Richmond Hill
Country: Romania
Posts: 4,450
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Exactly.

Now if you asked when had it hurt a young player's development when:
1. They aren't physically mature enough to handle the rigors of playing against men.
2. They can't handle the grind of an 82 game schedule.
3. They are played under 10 minutes a game on the bottom two lines with no support and not asked to play to their skill set.
4. Played out of their natural position to try to squeeze them into an offensive role.

Well then, I'd say that happens way too bloody often. As good as the 2003 draft class was, I'm convinced to this day that the extra year those players all had to develop in the minors or juniors are a big reason why so many of them succeeded.
I have always been one to think this way too

Corey Perry is my best example.

Leafs87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 04:22 PM
  #69
alanschu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
He is going to be in a leadership role in an international tournament that is a very high pressure situation based on Canada's expectations. If you can't see how that alone will help in his development, you are the one with blinders on.
He should be in a leadership role on the AHL team right now.

It's a high pressure tournament, and I have no doubt that he'll perform to expectations and put up huge numbers.

If the team doesn't win, it's not going to be RNH's fault.

Frankly, I am skeptical that it's going to be much more high pressure than being the #1 draft pick and playing as an 18 year old in the NHL.

alanschu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 05:15 PM
  #70
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
He should be in a leadership role on the AHL team right now.

It's a high pressure tournament, and I have no doubt that he'll perform to expectations and put up huge numbers.

If the team doesn't win, it's not going to be RNH's fault.

Frankly, I am skeptical that it's going to be much more high pressure than being the #1 draft pick and playing as an 18 year old in the NHL.
International tournaments and playoff runs are huge development opportunities. There is way more pressure in winning this tournament than playing a handful of AHL games in the middle of a long season. Many NHLers will tell you how much this tournament meant to them to play in it and how much it helped them become the players they have. And obviously it matters to Ryan since he choose to play.

Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 06:45 PM
  #71
SmellOfVictory
Registered User
 
SmellOfVictory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,757
vCash: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schenn View Post
That's awesome! Has there ever been a case of a players of RNH's NHL status come and play the WJC? I doubt it, but I wouldn't have a clue.
Patrice Bergeron in the 2005 WJC was a similar case, although his numbers weren't quite as impressive as RNH's.

SmellOfVictory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 06:49 PM
  #72
Xokkeu
Registered User
 
Xokkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Frozen
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 4,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Patrice Bergeron in the 2005 WJC was a similar case, although his numbers weren't quite as impressive as RNH's.
Bergeron was a 2nd round pick.

Xokkeu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 07:10 PM
  #73
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Bergeron was a 2nd round pick.
And a damn good one. 39 points in 71 games as an 18 year old. A gold medal at the WHC. 61 in 68 in the AHL during the lockout. Followed by 73 and 70 point seasons before his career got detailed by concusion. He has established himself as one of the best two way forwards in the NHL. I expect him to be on Team Canada at the next Olympics.

Nash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 07:13 PM
  #74
SephF
Thanks Smytty
 
SephF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Awful decision for his development. imo
It's not like he's going to play Junior all year... He's going for a month...

SephF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 09:09 PM
  #75
craigcaulks*
Registered Luser.
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: East Van!
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Some poor kid won't get to play for Canada because an AHL superstar wants to play. I see what I did there.

craigcaulks* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:56 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.