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Phaneuf vs Kronwall

View Poll Results: Who's better?
Phaneuf 53 32.52%
Kronwall 82 50.31%
Even 28 17.18%
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:46 PM
  #51
ashenhigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Last I checked you can play more than one defensemen on the powerplay, being better than Lidstrom is not Kronwall's only path to getting more PP time. I don't see what you guys are having so much trouble understanding about this...
LD. Lidstrom - RD. Rafalski

Kronwall, and certainly not Phaneuf, wouldnt take PP minutes over those two.

In 2011-12, White joined the team and became our only right handed shot after Eaves went down, thus it was easy for Babcock to place White directly in Rafalski's powerplay spot while Kronner could continue to QB the second unit as he has for seasons past.


Last edited by ashenhigh: 12-07-2012 at 01:12 PM.
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Old
12-05-2012, 06:25 PM
  #52
PensBandwagonerNo272
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Kronwall

Close offensively, not close defensively.

With Lidstrom retired Kronwall will get more PP time and probably outscore Phaneuf for the next few seasons now too.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:53 PM
  #53
The Nose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Last I checked you can play more than one defensemen on the powerplay, being better than Lidstrom is not Kronwall's only path to getting more PP time. I don't see what you guys are having so much trouble understanding about this...


Kronwall was not arguably the number 1 dman, he was a 2nd pairing defensemen. I find it unfortunate that you guys cannot form an argument other than, "Nuh-uh, I'm right and you're wrong!" This seems to be a common argument when I point out the fact that Phaneuf had a very good defensive season. I really don't know what more you guys want, I point out that Phaneuf played tougher competition, his team outshot opposition and got scored on less when he was on the ice (versus Kronwall who was the opposite), and you guys just refuse to back up what you say.
Babcock likes a right-handed shot on the first PP and paired with Lidstrom at ES (Rafalski, White). Kronwall QB'd the second unit in the past because he obviously couldn't surpass one of the greatest defenseman ever. It's kind of funny when you say we aren't making any valid arguments or backing them up because if you scroll up a few posts then you'd see Eva's post proving why Kronwall is better offensively (using stats), but instead you decide to blow those off.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:54 PM
  #54
beauchamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Last I checked you can play more than one defensemen on the powerplay, being better than Lidstrom is not Kronwall's only path to getting more PP time. I don't see what you guys are having so much trouble understanding about this...


Kronwall was not arguably the number 1 dman, he was a 2nd pairing defensemen. (...)
The fly in the ointment is that Kronwall plays the same side as Lidstrom.

That made it quite difficult for him to be on the 1st pairing.

It would also mean that one of them would be on his wrong/inhabitual side if both were on a PP pairing.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:55 PM
  #55
NH57
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If it's Calgary Phaneuf, then him. If it's Toronto Phaneuf, then Kronwall.

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Old
12-05-2012, 07:43 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Last I checked you can play more than one defensemen on the powerplay, being better than Lidstrom is not Kronwall's only path to getting more PP time. I don't see what you guys are having so much trouble understanding about this...


Kronwall was not arguably the number 1 dman, he was a 2nd pairing defensemen. I find it unfortunate that you guys cannot form an argument other than, "Nuh-uh, I'm right and you're wrong!" This seems to be a common argument when I point out the fact that Phaneuf had a very good defensive season. I really don't know what more you guys want, I point out that Phaneuf played tougher competition, his team outshot opposition and got scored on less when he was on the ice (versus Kronwall who was the opposite), and you guys just refuse to back up what you say.
Yeah youre right your arguments great compared to everyone elses

Kronwall was logging ice time in all situations last season, while playing on a team with Lidstrom and playing close to the same time on ice per game. Kronwall, especially towards the end of the season really took over the number 1 spot from Lidstrom. Lidstrom was playing the same amount of ice time but it was becoming more as a powerplay specialist while Kronwall logged more shorthanded minutes.

Even with the lack of PP time compared to Phaneuf Kronwall put up more goals and was close in points.

You show all your advanced stats that are useless in hockey, I'll watch the games and look at some legit stats and make my judgement. Kronwall is better.

And theres probably only one, maybe 2 teams where Kronner is a second pairing guy in the league

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Old
12-05-2012, 08:14 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
You can adjust your statistics all you want, the fact is Phaneuf has scored 100 more points than Kronwall since coming into the league, at a rate of 0.1PPG more. Since when is only one defensemen on a team allowed to get PP time? Using Lidstrom is a poor excuse, you earn your PP time and if Kronwall was so great he'd be given more. And it's not like Phaneuf has just been handed those PP points on powerplay juggernauts, he deserves every bit of credit for his point totals.
Phaneuf wouldn't have received all of those minutes if he were in Detroit. He'd have been stuck on the second unit just like Kronwall was. And if Kronwall was in Calgary, he'd have been the one logging big PP minutes. No, neither played was simply "handed" minutes. But one player had a significantly easier path to get them, and to keep them, than the other.

Quote:
Saying Dion Phaneuf is better defensively is silly?

(rankings are among defensemen on respective teams with 40+GP)
Dion Phaneuf:
QoC: 0.090 (1st on team, 3rd in league)
Corsi Rel QoC: 1.399 (1st on team, 10th in league)
Corsi Relative: +3.3 (2nd on team)
GA ON/60 - GA OFF/60: -0.04

Niklas Kronwall:
QoC: 0.017 (3rd on team)
Corsi Rel QoC: 0.702 (3rd on team)
Corsi Relative: -6.6 (6th on team)
GA ON/60 - GA OFF/60: +0.65

So just to recap, Phaneuf plays much tougher minutes than Kronwall, his team outshoots opposition and gets scored on less when he is on the ice, versus Kronwall whose team gets outshot and scored on significantly more often when he is on the ice. And before the excuses come, Kronwall has a much higher QoT and Corsi Rel QoT meaning he plays with better teammates.

Yes, clearly it is silly to say that Phaneuf is better defensively.
Phaneuf played with Carl Gunnarsson, who saved Phaneuf's backide many times. Kronwall played with Brad Stuart, who has been a minute eating black hole on Detroit's blue line for two-plus years. Nicklas Lidstrom won the Norris in 2011, but had a minus rating for the only time in his career. Who was his partner? Brad ********** Stuart. Not Brian Rafalski, who had a great year that year with Jonathan Ericsson and previous years with Lidstrom.

And if we're pulling CORSI ratings into this... do I now get to say that Ian White is equal to Dion Phaneuf? Or that Cory Emmerton is the best PP center?

Ah, CORSI. Better than plus/minus, but still hardly a great indicator of individual performance.

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Old
12-05-2012, 08:20 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
Kronwall has played ~30% of his games over the past three years against the second lines of Colombus, Nashville, St. Louis, and Chicago.

Phaneuf has played ~30% of his games during that same time against the top lines of Boston, Ottawa, Buffalo, and and Montreal.
And yet it is also true that Phaneuf has played on the first PP unit with players such as Kessel, Lupul, and Iginla while Kronwall saw second PP unit duty with guys like Filppula, Bertuzzi, and Cleary.

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Old
12-05-2012, 09:03 PM
  #59
Nizdizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
And yet it is also true that Phaneuf has played on the first PP unit with players such as Kessel, Lupul, and Iginla while Kronwall saw second PP unit duty with guys like Filppula, Bertuzzi, and Cleary.
Do you really want to get into the argument over who had the better supporting cast?

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Old
12-05-2012, 09:06 PM
  #60
pdd
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
Do you really want to get into the argument over who had the better supporting cast?
Phaneuf is used as an offensive defenseman with a shut-down partner. Kronwall is used as a defenseman and also puts up offense.

There's a big difference.

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Old
12-07-2012, 04:55 AM
  #61
Tomas W
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Who knows, on a bad team he might get exposed a lot more. Works both ways.
I think he will be both exposed (on D) and explode (on O).

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Old
12-07-2012, 06:47 AM
  #62
gifted88
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This one is close but I'll say Phaneuf

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Old
12-08-2012, 05:12 PM
  #63
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Very close, but I might lean toward Kronwall. I wouldn't want either as my #1 defenseman though.

Both too often are in bad positions defensively looking to make the big hit and it really hurts their team in the end. I couldn't count how many times a goal was scored against Detroit and Kronwall wasn't even in the picture..just Stuart trying to defend against 2+ forwards because he had no help. I watched almost every Wings' game this year and Kronwall was really disappointing defensively. Whether it was because he was going for a hit or pinching in at awful times, he was out there for a lot of goals against. Phaneuf might actually be slightly better but neither is great.

Kronwall has the better shot IMO. Phaneuf might have more power but his accuracy is terrible. Meanwhile, especially last year, Kronwall was great at getting the puck on net as evidenced by his highest goal scoring season easily. I don't find either as great passers and that would explain the low assist numbers. I wouldn't want either of them running my #1 PP.

Overall, this is a great comparison and a close one...really too close of a call for me to choose. I'll take Kronwall might the slimmest of margins because I don't like Phaneuf's face...even if Kronwall is a coward.

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Old
12-08-2012, 05:32 PM
  #64
TieClark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Phaneuf is used as an offensive defenseman with a shut-down partner. Kronwall is used as a defenseman and also puts up offense.

There's a big difference.
lol and what shutdown partner has Phaneuf had? Phaneuf is consistently matched up with the other teams best players in order to shut them down.

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Old
12-09-2012, 09:13 PM
  #65
pdd
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Very close, but I might lean toward Kronwall. I wouldn't want either as my #1 defenseman though.

Both too often are in bad positions defensively looking to make the big hit and it really hurts their team in the end. I couldn't count how many times a goal was scored against Detroit and Kronwall wasn't even in the picture..just Stuart trying to defend against 2+ forwards because he had no help.
If you had really watched "almost every game" you'd know that a great majorit of thoe situations ended up happening from Stuart making a mistake on coverage and/or handling the puck, not from Kronwall being out of position. Most of the issues that happened when the two of them that could be directly attributed were Stuart's mistakes; he did the same thing to Lidstrom the year before during Babcock's "experiment".

Quote:
I watched almost every Wings' game this year and Kronwall was really disappointing defensively. Whether it was because he was going for a hit or pinching in at awful times, he was out there for a lot of goals against. Phaneuf might actually be slightly better but neither is great.

Kronwall has the better shot IMO. Phaneuf might have more power but his accuracy is terrible. Meanwhile, especially last year, Kronwall was great at getting the puck on net as evidenced by his highest goal scoring season easily. I don't find either as great passers and that would explain the low assist numbers. I wouldn't want either of them running my #1 PP.
If you think assist numbers prove who is the better passer... you can't be helped by real life.

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