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Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
12-09-2012, 11:04 PM
  #51
Canadiens1958
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Hugh Lehman

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This has been pointed out so many times, I didn't feel the need to post it every time I mention the PCHA All-Star teams.

Mickey Ion, chief ref of the PCHA, picked the PCHA all-star teams by himself. In a previous post, I speculated as to whether he reffed all PCHA games, but the link you provide just mentions "4-5 games per week."

I'm not sure the original source of the WCHL All Star Teams.

Ion's opinion of Lehman is supported (though not on a year by year basis) by newspapers and by his early induction into the Hockey Hall of fame.

_________________________

From Nalyd Psycho's profile of Lehman, here is some of the newspaper praise he received:

Western papers:



This was 1914 and Vezina and Benedict probably didn't hit their strides until a few years later. Suggests that as of 1914, Leseuer and Lehman were considered the best goalies in the world.



Suggests that as of 1919, Vezina and Lehman were the goalies all other goalies were compared to.



Lehman was considered the best goalie in the world (including Vezina and Benedict) by Western observers. But I would imagine they were only familiar with the Eastern leagues from the Cup finals.

Eastern Papers



Suggests that before Vezina hit his stride, Lehman was considered the best goalie in the world even in the East, despite limited chances at viewing him.



Supports Mickey Ion's opinion of the 1915-16 PCHA season where he gave Lehman 1st Team and Holmes 2nd Team.



Not really comparing him to any goalie in particular, but shows that he was getting press a "star" for the last 20 years even in the East.

Hugh Lehman will almost certainly be 1st on my list this round.
Media fluff considering that in 1922 Lehman was nowhere close to a twenty year career.

If you look at Hugh Lehman's PCHA career, there is a clear improvement in his GAA starting with the 1917-18 season:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lehmahu01.html

Thru the 1916-17 season his GAA ranged from 3.79 to 5.30. 1917-18 and beyond Lehman's GAA ranged from 2.33 to 3.23. Why?

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Old
12-09-2012, 11:11 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
And the evidence for this is? Pretty hard to rank the goalies that precisely in this era. Also you got to take into account the strength of the teams. How does anyone know how good Lumley was in those 2 years on terrible Blackhawk teams. Must have impressed Leaf management since they traded Rollins for him.
Post WWII had a very restrictive meaning here -- think from end of WWII to Durnan's retirement (a bit arbitrary -- it's just so we can keep a group together)

Lumley had the benefit of playing with what should be considered the best D of the league by then, unless we all admit we screwed up with Jack Stewart/Bill Quackenbush in the Top-60 D-Men list.

Rollins had better numbers than Lumley in Chicago.

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Old
12-09-2012, 11:31 PM
  #53
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Gus Mortson

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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Post WWII had a very restrictive meaning here -- think from end of WWII to Durnan's retirement (a bit arbitrary -- it's just so we can keep a group together)

Lumley had the benefit of playing with what should be considered the best D of the league by then, unless we all admit we screwed up with Jack Stewart/Bill Quackenbush in the Top-60 D-Men list.

Rollins had better numbers than Lumley in Chicago.
In Chicago Rollins also had the benefit of Gus Mortson - 1 AST 1950 and a maturing Bill Gadsby.

Detroit's forwards thru the forties were not known for their defense.

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Old
12-09-2012, 11:42 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
In Chicago Rollins also had the benefit of Gus Mortson - 1 AST 1950 and a maturing Bill Gadsby. Detroit's forwards thru the forties were not known for their defense.
They had some decent Defenceman though didnt they? Quackenbush, Reise, Stewart & of course Red Kelly. Not much up front beyond Sid Abel, Mud Bruneteau, a young Howe & Lindsay... the inimitable Enio Sclisizzi.

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12-10-2012, 12:02 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Media fluff considering that in 1922 Lehman was nowhere close to a twenty year career.
Lehman began his senior playing career in 1903 at the age of 18 in one of several amateur leagues at the time. He played his first pro season in 1906-07 and went pro for good in 1908. He was 26 years old when the PCHA was formed in 1911.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughie_Lehman

That article isn't the reason to think that Lehman was a star before joining the PCHA. Nalyd Psycho's profile quotes several articles about a bidding war between the Galt and Berlin/Kitchener of the Ontario Professional Hockey League (OPHL) and the Ottawa Senators of the NHA in 1909. At one point, all three teams claimed Lehman's services, and he appeared in losing Cup challenges for both the OPHL teams. Then when the PCHA was formed in 1911, Lehman and Moose Johnson were their star acquisitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958
If you look at Hugh Lehman's PCHA career, there is a clear improvement in his GAA starting with the 1917-18 season:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lehmahu01.html

Thru the 1916-17 season his GAA ranged from 3.79 to 5.30. 1917-18 and beyond Lehman's GAA ranged from 2.33 to 3.23. Why?
PCHA scoring in general dropped.

1914-15 average PCHA team scored 5.19 GPG
1915-16 average PCHA team scored 4.00 GPG
1916-17 average PCHA team scored 4.78 GPG
1917-18 average PCHA team scored 3.70 GPG
1918-19 average PCHA team scored 3.03 GPG
1919-20 average PCHA team scored 2.89 GPG

I'm not entirely sure why leaguewide scoring dropped so fast. I know the NHL allowed goalies to leave their feet to make saves starting in 1918 and that this change is given a lot of credit for the drop in scoring in the NHL that eventually led to the deadest of the dead puck eras in the late 1920s. I'm not sure when the PCHA adopted the rule, but the PCHA wikipedia page said that the PCHA adopted it first.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-10-2012 at 02:36 AM.
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Old
12-10-2012, 12:05 AM
  #56
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If there is a question of whether Lumley was better than Al Rollins, that isn't exactly a ringing endorsement that he should be added soon.

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12-10-2012, 12:36 AM
  #57
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PCHA Yearly Scoring and Lehman's GAA

Under "scoring" I just took the total goals for in each year divided by number of teams. TDMM had it covered but it's interesting to see the scoring changes each year.

I'd venture a guess the big change from 1917 to 1918 was Spokane/original Victoria folding. They allowed 143 goals in 1917 and 102 in 1916, 116 in 1915. Scoring looks a lot more consistent after this period, aside from '23 when scoring was up across the board and Holmes fared worst - which couldn't have been too bad to earn the Second Team spot over Fowler.

YearScoringGAA Rank; MarginsAll-Star Teams
1912871/3; +13 over Lindsay1st: Lehman
1913732/3; -18 behind Lindsay1st: Lindsay
1914772/3; -14 behind Lindsay1st: Lehman
1915901/3: +12 over Mike Mitchell1st: Lehman
1916723/4; -19 behind Tom Murray, -2 behind Holmes1st: Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
1917114.753/4; Holmes -44, Tom Murray -121st: Fowler (distant 4th in GAA) / 2nd: Holmes
191866.671/3; +5 over Fowler1st: Lehman / 2nd: Fowler
191960.672/3; -9 behind Holmes1st: Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
192063.672/3; -10 behind Holmes1st: Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
192178.332/3; -10 behind Holmes1st: Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
192267.671/3; +2 over Holmes1st: Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
1923103.331/3; +24 over Fowler (5 more GP than Lehman)1st: Lehman / 2nd: Holmes
1924831/3; +19 over Holmes1st: Lehman


Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 12-10-2012 at 12:45 AM.
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Old
12-10-2012, 04:22 AM
  #58
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I found an old thread (2006) on Grant Fuhr vs Billy Smith:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=281063


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12-10-2012, 06:58 AM
  #59
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Scoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Lehman began his senior playing career in 1903 at the age of 18 in one of several amateur leagues at the time. He played his first pro season in 1906-07 and went pro for good in 1908. He was 26 years old when the PCHA was formed in 1911.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughie_Lehman

That article isn't the reason to think that Lehman was a star before joining the PCHA. Nalyd Psycho's profile quotes several articles about a bidding war between the Galt and Berlin/Kitchener of the Ontario Professional Hockey League (OPHL) and the Ottawa Senators of the NHA in 1909. At one point, all three teams claimed Lehman's services, and he appeared in losing Cup challenges for both the OPHL teams. Then when the PCHA was formed in 1911, Lehman and Moose Johnson were their star acquisitions.



PCHA scoring in general dropped.

1914-15 average PCHA team scored 5.19 GPG
1915-16 average PCHA team scored 4.00 GPG
1916-17 average PCHA team scored 4.78 GPG
1917-18 average PCHA team scored 3.70 GPG
1918-19 average PCHA team scored 3.03 GPG
1919-20 average PCHA team scored 2.89 GPG

I'm not entirely sure why leaguewide scoring dropped so fast. I know the NHL allowed goalies to leave their feet to make saves starting in 1918 and that this change is given a lot of credit for the drop in scoring in the NHL that eventually led to the deadest of the dead puck eras in the late 1920s. I'm not sure when the PCHA adopted the rule, but the PCHA wikipedia page said that the PCHA adopted it first.
In the NHL scoring remained high after flopping was allowed.

1917-18: 9.50 TG/G
1918-19: 8.26 TG/G
1910-20: 9.58 TG/G
1920-21: 8.46 TG/G
1921-22: 7.92 TG/G
1922-23: 6.52 TG/G

Pete Green and the Ottawa Senators defensive game were rather influential in starting the trend to the 1920s dead puck era..

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:51 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If there is a question of whether Lumley was better than Al Rollins, that isn't exactly a ringing endorsement that he should be added soon.
He certainly was as a whole. Just not sure if he was really better AS A HAWK, though.

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Old
12-10-2012, 04:51 PM
  #61
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He certainly was as a whole. Just not sure if he was really better AS A HAWK, though.
I don't see how it could even be considered close between Rollins and Lumley strictly in terms of their Chicago careers. First of all, Rollins had way better numbers, with 81-171-56, 3.03 compared to Lumley's 29-85-19, 3.67. Lumley's best GAA in Chicago was worse than Rollins' in all five of his seasons as a starter for the club.

On top of that, Rollins had substantial award recognition as a Black Hawk while Lumley received no votes for anything. Rollins had a first and second in Hart voting, plus a 3rd in All-Star voting in 1953-54 and 4th in All-Star voting in 1956-57 (and presumably was 3rd in 1952-53 given that some votes are missing from the data in the HOH thread, and in my opinion Rollins got completely robbed of at least a 2AST by whoever voted for Gerry McNeil). Chicago only made the playoffs once in a 12 year stretch from 1947 to 1958, in 1952-53 with Rollins in goal. Finally, there is the fact that Lumley was Chicago property from May 1956 to January 1958 yet played zero games for the club.

Here's Wilf Cude in the Montreal Gazette in October 1955:

Quote:
'Take a fellow like Harry Lumley. Harry's really had three careers. He came up with the Red Wings and was a star. Then he was traded to the Black Hawks and he looked like just another goalkeeper. After that he went to the Toronto Maple Leafs, a team that gave him good protection, and he was a star again.'
I think Lumley was clearly outplayed by Rollins in Chicago and slightly outplayed by Don Simmons in Boston. What that means for his legacy I'm not sure, maybe he was past his prime in Boston and the Chicago teams of the very early '50s were just that awful, but it does make one wonder how much of a difference there was between guys like Lumley and guys like Rollins or Jim Henry who were solid starters but never had extended periods as starters on one of the league's top teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
None of your links support your initial claim that Lumley was "beat out" by Al Rollins they just support the facts as they happened. Also the data was available before you posted the misleading information.
Both goalies were in training camp, Lumley signed a contract with Chicago that season and still ended up playing zero NHL games. How would you describe that other than Rollins beating out Lumley?

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Also that was not my claim. As a stand alone goalie Gump Worsley managed to play most or parts of 10 seasons in the NHL between trips to the minors - 1953-54,1957-58, 1959-60(including 10 games when Al Rollins was preferred to him).
Al Rollins was actually an injury replacement for Worsley in 1960:

Quote:
"Goalie Al Rollins of Winnipeg Warriors had been approached as a replacement for injured New York Rangers goalie Gump Worsley, the coach of the Western Hockey League Warriors said Thursday night. Coach Bill Mosienko said the 33-year old netminder had been asked by New York general manager Muzz Patrick to replace Worsley for the remainder of the season. Mosienko said Rollins probably will make his decision today. Worsley is through for the season as the result of an injury suffered Wednesday in a game against Chicago Black Hawks. Two tendons in his right hand were severed."
The Rangers of that time seemed to prefer to carry only one goalie with the team, so Worsley was demoted a couple of times. In 1953-54 it was because he lost his job to Johnny Bower. In 1957-58 Worsley partly lost his job due to injury, as after Marcel Paille got hot when filling in for Worsley as an injury replacement the Rangers went with Paille for a while after Worsley returned from injury. In 1959-60 Worsley went through a slump and was briefly demoted, then suffered a season-ending injury after he had reclaimed his job in New York.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
His only success, team or individual was as a tandem goalie in Montreal. Plante and Sawchuk had individual and team success as stand alone goalies.
I guess you can support that claim if your only definition of success is All-Star Teams and Cups. I think Worsley's save percentage record is pretty strong considering the teams he played on in New York.

From 1952-53 (the first year we have complete save percentage stats) to 1964-65 (Jacques Plante retires for the first time, two years after Worsley is traded to Montreal), all Rangers goalies other than Worsley had a 3.21 GAA and a .906 save percentage, compared to a league average of .912. Worsley had 3.09 and .911 (.910 average). And when Worsley was swapped for Jacques Plante, the Rangers' fortunes didn't suddenly improve:

Worsley, 1961-62: 22-27-9, 2.96, .912
Worsley, 1962-63: 22-34-10, 3.30, .914
Plante, 1963-64: 22-36-7, 3.38, .910
Plante, 1964-65: 10-17-5, 3.37, .901
Paille, 1964-65: 10-21-7, 3.58, .890

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Giacomin is a worthy HHOFer (short prime, but 5 straight years as a 1st or 2nd Team AS is very good even against soso competition). But we're talking about the best of all time here, and he has to have the worst playoff record of anyone who has come up to vote yet, right? I mean, Tony Esposito had his awful moments at the worst times in the playoffs, but he also was very solid at other times.
I would agree that Giacomin may well have the worst playoff record of any goalie up to vote yet. His career playoff save percentage was just .895, while the playoff league average throughout his career was .909. The Rangers were very good in terms of shot prevention in Giacomin's playoff career, allowing just 27.6 shots against per 60 minutes, 3.5 below league average, which suggests that the biggest problem was the goaltending.

It might look like Giacomin's career GAA didn't drop much in the playoffs (2.81 regular season, 2.82 playoffs), but that is mainly because his regular season GAA is inflated by a number of post-prime seasons where he either didn't make the playoffs or did not advance very far. If you weight his playoff average by multiplying his regular season GAAs by his playoff minutes played, Giacomin's regular season GAA drops to just 2.65, giving an increase of 0.17 come playoff time.

The only thing to mitigate Giacomin's record is that he probably did face much stronger than average competition, given that the Rangers were eliminated by the Bruins or Canadiens six times in his nine year playoff career.


Last edited by ContrarianGoaltender: 12-10-2012 at 05:00 PM.
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Old
12-10-2012, 06:47 PM
  #62
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Harry Lumley

Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
I don't see how it could even be considered close between Rollins and Lumley strictly in terms of their Chicago careers. First of all, Rollins had way better numbers, with 81-171-56, 3.03 compared to Lumley's 29-85-19, 3.67. Lumley's best GAA in Chicago was worse than Rollins' in all five of his seasons as a starter for the club.

On top of that, Rollins had substantial award recognition as a Black Hawk while Lumley received no votes for anything. Rollins had a first and second in Hart voting, plus a 3rd in All-Star voting in 1953-54 and 4th in All-Star voting in 1956-57 (and presumably was 3rd in 1952-53 given that some votes are missing from the data in the HOH thread, and in my opinion Rollins got completely robbed of at least a 2AST by whoever voted for Gerry McNeil). Chicago only made the playoffs once in a 12 year stretch from 1947 to 1958, in 1952-53 with Rollins in goal. Finally, there is the fact that Lumley was Chicago property from May 1956 to January 1958 yet played zero games for the club.

Here's Wilf Cude in the Montreal Gazette in October 1955:



I think Lumley was clearly outplayed by Rollins in Chicago and slightly outplayed by Don Simmons in Boston.
What that means for his legacy I'm not sure, maybe he was past his prime in Boston and the Chicago teams of the very early '50s were just that awful, but it does make one wonder how much of a difference there was between guys like Lumley and guys like Rollins or Jim Henry who were solid starters but never had extended periods as starters on one of the league's top teams.



Both goalies were in training camp, Lumley signed a contract with Chicago that season and still ended up playing zero NHL games. How would you describe that other than Rollins beating out Lumley?



Al Rollins was actually an injury replacement for Worsley in 1960:



The Rangers of that time seemed to prefer to carry only one goalie with the team, so Worsley was demoted a couple of times.
In 1953-54 it was because he lost his job to Johnny Bower. In 1957-58 Worsley partly lost his job due to injury, as after Marcel Paille got hot when filling in for Worsley as an injury replacement the Rangers went with Paille for a while after Worsley returned from injury. In 1959-60 Worsley went through a slump and was briefly demoted, then suffered a season-ending injury after he had reclaimed his job in New York.



I guess you can support that claim if your only definition of success is All-Star Teams and Cups. I think Worsley's save percentage record is pretty strong considering the teams he played on in New York.

From 1952-53 (the first year we have complete save percentage stats) to 1964-65 (Jacques Plante retires for the first time, two years after Worsley is traded to Montreal), all Rangers goalies other than Worsley had a 3.21 GAA and a .906 save percentage, compared to a league average of .912. Worsley had 3.09 and .911 (.910 average). And when Worsley was swapped for Jacques Plante, the Rangers' fortunes didn't suddenly improve:

Worsley, 1961-62: 22-27-9, 2.96, .912
Worsley, 1962-63: 22-34-10, 3.30, .914
Plante, 1963-64: 22-36-7, 3.38, .910
Plante, 1964-65: 10-17-5, 3.37, .901
Paille, 1964-65: 10-21-7, 3.58, .890



I would agree that Giacomin may well have the worst playoff record of any goalie up to vote yet. His career playoff save percentage was just .895, while the playoff league average throughout his career was .909. The Rangers were very good in terms of shot prevention in Giacomin's playoff career, allowing just 27.6 shots against per 60 minutes, 3.5 below league average, which suggests that the biggest problem was the goaltending.

It might look like Giacomin's career GAA didn't drop much in the playoffs (2.81 regular season, 2.82 playoffs), but that is mainly because his regular season GAA is inflated by a number of post-prime seasons where he either didn't make the playoffs or did not advance very far. If you weight his playoff average by multiplying his regular season GAAs by his playoff minutes played, Giacomin's regular season GAA drops to just 2.65, giving an increase of 0.17 come playoff time.

The only thing to mitigate Giacomin's record is that he probably did face much stronger than average competition, given that the Rangers were eliminated by the Bruins or Canadiens six times in his nine year playoff career.
Again overlooking the players that accompanied Al Rollins to Chicago from Toronto. Chicago also received Gus Mortson a 1st team AST in 1950 and Cal Gardner a 23 goal scorer with the Leafs, 1950-51.

So the Hawks had more talent and depth as a result of the Lumley trade. Then the NHL teams - specifically the Canadiens and Toronto started helping the Hawks by selling them talent - 1952 Detroit sold them Sid Abel, 1956 Tony Leswick,1954-55 onwards Canadiens sold the Hawks Ed Litzenberger,Dick Gamble, Ken Mosdell,Paul Masnick, John McCormack while Toronto sold them Harry Watson,Eric Nesterenko. Dave Creighton, Earl Balfour. Net result was that Al Rollins was playing for a much better Chicago team.

1956-57 is a key season in hockey history. Origins of the players' union.A number of the teams purged the leaders by trading or selling them to bad teams within a year. This has been the subject of books, films and online discussions.

Lumley was sold to Chicago with Eric Nesterenko. Lumley did not want to play in Chicago, held out as you posted then returned to play for Buffalo in the AHL This was common for veteran Canadian players. Ken Mosdell left the Hawks after 1/2 because it was more advantageous to play in the QHL for the Royals, live at home, run his business then pay rent and employees. Others simply refused to report, retiring or playing senior hockey.

When the Bruins offered an advantageous contract he accepted and beat - out Don Simmons. Starting all seven games in the 1959 playoffs and the majority of 1959-60 games.

Your Worsley/Plante analogy overlooks a number of key factors. Loss of Doug Harvey once Red Sullivan was named coach and the Rangers deciding to rebuild - during the 1963-64 season when they made the Andy Bathgate trade with Toronto.

Also the Rangers at various times carried two goalies - Worsley/Paille at times, 1960-61 Worsley/McCartan for a few weeks. Teams usually were within a few hours of their farm teams and one of the trainers had experience as a goalie. Canadiens, as an example shared the Forum with their top QSHL/QHL/EPHL teams, junior teams and within 3-4 hours of 6 sponsored teams.

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Old
12-10-2012, 10:29 PM
  #63
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Reading more about Lehman...Google has a hard time with his name because the articles are nearly 100 years old and letters that can frequently be mistaken by the computers are prevalent in Lehman's name. But I found a few that an ordinary search might not have turned up and his value is growing in my mind.

Eastern and Western newspapers are quite flattering of him. At times, his Vancouver teams were so strong against a league that was sometimes iffy in terms of competition that Lehman didn't have much work to do. It seems as if he rarely led the league in GAA but still received the credit from an individual referee year after year. And I wonder if that's style-of-play bias.

It seems as if Lehman may have been more of an innovator in his league because of different rules. He would come out of the net to play the puck and would pass it forward (legal in West, illegal in the East, AIUI). He would also routinely come charging out of the net sometimes several feet to combat rushes. Some reports had him coming out all the way to the boards to disrupt plays. By all accounts, exciting and amusing. And seemingly unusual.

I wonder how much of an effect his style of play had in his accreditation vs. say, Hainsworth, who seems to suffer because of his dominant team and his less-than-exciting style.

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12-11-2012, 01:02 PM
  #64
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Seems like this is the time to really nail down a ranking for Fuhr and Smith.

My personal feeling is that Smith seems to have benefited from his team situation a bit more than Fuhr -- in terms of playing behind a better defense, with a tandem partner and during a lower-scoring selection of seasons -- and it seems a bit suspicious to me that Smith always seemed to step up his game at the exact same time his teammates were also stepping up their games. It's very hard for me to see a meaningful distinction between Smith playing well and the Islanders playing well.

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12-11-2012, 01:50 PM
  #65
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Quote:
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Part of the Durnan/Broda thing is that Broda always beat Durnan head to head in the playoffs.

I looks like Holmes and Lehman played in the playoffs every season between 1918 and 1924. I believe this is their full playoff record head to head, as there were no PCHA playoffs before 1918, and Lehman didn't make the playoffs in 1925 or 1926.

In 1918, Holmes' Toronto Arenas beat Lehman's Vancouver Millionaires in the Cup finals.
In 1919, Holmes's Seattle Metropolitans beat Lehman's Vancouver Millionaires in the PCHA finals.
In 1920, Holmes's Seattle Metropolitans beat Lehman's Vancouver Millionaires in the PCHA finals.
In 1921, Lehman's Vancouver Millionaires beat Holmes' Seattle Metropolitans in the PCHA finals.
In 1922, Lehman's Vancouver Millionaires beat Holmes' Seattle Metropolitans in the PCHA finals.
In 1923, Lehman's Vancouver Maroons beat Holmes' Seattle Metropolitans in the PCHA finals.
In 1924, Lehman's Vancouver Maroons beat Holmes' Seattle Metropolitans in the PCHA finals.

I see Lehman with a 4-3 record over Holmes head to head in the playoffs. Holmes' teams tended to be more successful in the finals though. Holmes was 4-2-1 in the Cup finals, though 2 of the wins were with the NHA/NHL. Lehman was 1-6 in the Cup finals.

Another reason to possibly prefer Broda is that Durnan's longevity was poor, something that obviously wasn't a problem with Lehman.
Hmm, good point. So the difference wasn’t that he couldn’t beat Holmes. When he did, he couldn’t beat the East. Holmes could.

With all that considered it is obvious Lehman is the better goalie.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The thing with Ed Giacomin is that basically his resume boils down to 5 great regular seasons in a row
And it was pretty much by default, too.

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and he was absolutely terrible in the playoffs during that time.
Yes he was. GAA doesn’t entirely tell the story. His sv% was horrible in the playoffs. Just abysmal. Can’t access my files right now, but IIRC, he had the worst weighted “vs. league average” career mark of any 3000+ minute goalie.

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Toss-up between the two for worst playoff goalie in the post 1967 expansion era.
No, it’s not even close. With his whole 99 game playoff performance combined, Esposito still managed to outperform the league average. Giacomin did not even come close.

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12-11-2012, 01:59 PM
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Seems like this is the time to really nail down a ranking for Fuhr and Smith.

My personal feeling is that Smith seems to have benefited from his team situation a bit more than Fuhr -- in terms of playing behind a better defense, with a tandem partner and during a lower-scoring selection of seasons -- and it seems a bit suspicious to me that Smith always seemed to step up his game at the exact same time his teammates were also stepping up their games. It's very hard for me to see a meaningful distinction between Smith playing well and the Islanders playing well.
I outlined earlier how many times Smith faced elimination during the dynasty and how many games his team put out of reach (winning by 3+ goals) - does anyone have the same for Fuhr?

Also - is it a foregone conclusion for anyone that Giacomin should be voted in ahead of Rogie Vachon? It isn't for me!

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12-11-2012, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I outlined earlier how many times Smith faced elimination during the dynasty and how many games his team put out of reach (winning by 3+ goals) - does anyone have the same for Fuhr?

Also - is it a foregone conclusion for anyone that Giacomin should be voted in ahead of Rogie Vachon? It isn't for me!
Agree with you here...I also have him 100% behind at least one other guy that isn't up for voting yet.

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12-11-2012, 03:12 PM
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Also - is it a foregone conclusion for anyone that Giacomin should be voted in ahead of Rogie Vachon? It isn't for me!
I think I had those two right next to each other on my submitted list. I'm pretty sure those are going to be the two I leave off my ballot this time.

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12-11-2012, 03:56 PM
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Not So

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No, it’s not even close. With his whole 99 game playoff performance combined, Esposito still managed to outperform the league average. Giacomin did not even come close.
Sadly this is not accurate.

Giacomin had a better GAA in the playoffs 2.81 vs Esposito's 3.07 so Giacomin by this metric was better than Tony Esposito.

As you can see from the link:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...esposto01.html

was 8 games below a .500 W/L % which happens to be the league average for the playoffs so Esposito actually failed to outperform the league average.

Toss-up between the two for the worst.

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12-11-2012, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Sadly this is not accurate.

Giacomin had a better GAA in the playoffs 2.81 vs Esposito's 3.07 so Giacomin by this metric was better than Tony Esposito.

As you can see from the link:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...esposto01.html

was 8 games below a .500 W/L % which happens to be the league average for the playoffs so Esposito actually failed to outperform the league average.

Toss-up between the two for the worst.
Wasn't the league average GAA different for each of these guys since their playoff careers only partially overlap? I don't see the raw numbers being very helpful without the league scoring levels included to give context...Shouldn't we all know this by now???

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12-11-2012, 05:02 PM
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Yes. In a universe where GAA and wins & losses are the best way to judge a goalie’s individual performance, you would be absolutely correct! At least take solace in that, ok?

Now, as for stats that actually matter…

Esposito performed at an average rate of 4 sv% points above the league playoff average during his career, while Giacomin was 14 points below, for a total spread of 18 points. That is an enormous difference in performance.

Even without any adjustments or comparisons to the league average, Esposito’s career.903 is clearly better than Giacomin’s .895.

It’s rather interesting that you would turn to a metric like GAA, when it is simply error rate (inverse of sv%) multiplied by shots against per game. Introducing shots per game gets us further away from a legitimate answer, not closer.

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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18
Wasn't the league average GAA different for each of these guys since their playoff careers only partially overlap? I don't see the raw numbers being very helpful without the league scoring levels included to give context...Shouldn't we all know this by now???
Yes. We should.

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12-11-2012, 05:14 PM
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So

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Yes. In a universe where GAA and wins & losses are the best way to judge a goalie’s individual performance, you would be absolutely correct! At least take solace in that, ok?

Now, as for stats that actually matter…

Esposito performed at an average rate of 4 sv% points above the league playoff average during his career, while Giacomin was 14 points below, for a total spread of 18 points. That is an enormous difference in performance.

Even without any adjustments or comparisons to the league average, Esposito’s career.903 is clearly better than Giacomin’s .895.

It’s rather interesting that you would turn to a metric like GAA, when it is simply error rate (inverse of sv%) multiplied by shots against per game. Introducing shots per game gets us further away from a legitimate answer, not closer.



Yes. We should.
Still your comparable is which one of the two - Giacomin and Esposito is worse during the playoffs. No other goalie who is their contemporary playing more than 60 NHL playoff games slips in between the two or below.

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12-11-2012, 05:42 PM
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Everyone has a point of view but how does one choose a goalie due to fact he played in from of great defence and coach was more defensive oriented.Example I will give is Vachon and Dryden.1976 Canada Cup Vachon had 1.33 gaa average.Dryden played poorly against russians.Now I do think Dryden was better but is it close or not?Dryden was a standout with habs but how much was it due to team.VACHON HAD A GOOD career some say borderline hall of fame.

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12-11-2012, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Seems like this is the time to really nail down a ranking for Fuhr and Smith.

My personal feeling is that Smith seems to have benefited from his team situation a bit more than Fuhr -- in terms of playing behind a better defense, with a tandem partner and during a lower-scoring selection of seasons -- and it seems a bit suspicious to me that Smith always seemed to step up his game at the exact same time his teammates were also stepping up their games. It's very hard for me to see a meaningful distinction between Smith playing well and the Islanders playing well.
I don't believe in Smith all that much either. I'm going to give him every benefit of the doubt though. I'm gonna watch the games available on NHL Vault for the 1982 playoffs (watched game 1 vs. Vancouver last night), these were the games that preceded his only strong foray into the All-Star Team balloting...if I like what I see, I'll start warming to him...if I don't, I won't.

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12-11-2012, 05:54 PM
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I don't believe in Smith all that much either. I'm going to give him every benefit of the doubt though. I'm gonna watch the games available on NHL Vault for the 1982 playoffs (watched game 1 vs. Vancouver last night), these were the games that preceded his only strong foray into the All-Star Team balloting...if I like what I see, I'll start warming to him...if I don't, I won't.
Needless to say, please share your thoughts on how he looks in those games.

[adding NHL Vault to Christmas list]

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