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CBA Negotiations III: Why Can't We All Just...Get Along?

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Old
12-08-2012, 09:58 PM
  #451
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Phoenix is a lost cause. If a struggling franchise has to get the pick I'd give it to Columbus.

Dallas could probably use a big star too, I think they've been struggling recently?
I was thinking more along the lines of teams that are truly in trouble and possibly on the verge of needing a relocation. Dallas may be struggling financially (even though they have been respectable play-wise even at the cap floor), but they have a long history laden with success to draw from during tough times - something that Columbus and Phoenix don't.

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12-09-2012, 01:39 AM
  #452
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Originally Posted by CootaRoo View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of teams that are truly in trouble and possibly on the verge of needing a relocation. Dallas may be struggling financially (even though they have been respectable play-wise even at the cap floor), but they have a long history laden with success to draw from during tough times - something that Columbus and Phoenix don't.
Columbus has shown in the past that they can draw large crowds; if you check their attendance records, you'll see what I mean. Fans have been driven away by their huge suck streak. Phoenix, though..meh. Since they've moved out to Glendale they've struggled to draw crowds, even though they've been fairly good recently.

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12-09-2012, 01:40 AM
  #453
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Move the Coyotes back to Phoenix.

Isn't Glendale considered in the middle of no where?

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12-09-2012, 01:44 AM
  #454
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Move the Coyotes back to Phoenix.

Isn't Glendale considered in the middle of no where?
That's what everyone says.

I wouldn't be shocked if Phoenix ends up in Quebec. I don't believe the Canadian dollar will be dropping soon; their oil industry is doing nothing but growing, last I checked, which will keep it strong for a while. Call them the Nordiques, let them have that incredibly stupid old logo, and I'll be happy.

Long term prediction: Anaheim to Seattle. I'm so confident, I'd be willing to bet one (1) full pound of dryer lint on it.

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12-09-2012, 01:45 AM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
That's what everyone says.

I wouldn't be shocked if Phoenix ends up in Quebec. I don't believe the Canadian dollar will be dropping soon; their oil industry is doing nothing but growing, last I checked, which will keep it strong for a while.

Long term prediction: Anaheim to Seattle.
I don't think Quebec has their arena ready and it won't be ready until 2015 I think..

IIRC Seattle's arena only seats about 15-16k people.. They'd have to pretty much sell out to make money depending on prices and the cap

And I don't think Glendale will be that bad if Jamison gets the team finally sold to him. Sure, they may lose some money, but the NHL won't be fronting 25m a year for it. If only they could get the people in Glendale that don't want them there to shut up already. They've already done the poll thing what, 2 or 3 times?

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12-09-2012, 01:51 AM
  #456
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I don't think Quebec has their arena ready and it won't be ready until 2015 I think..

IIRC Seattle's arena only seats about 15-16k people.. They'd have to pretty much sell out to make money depending on prices and the cap

And I don't think Glendale will be that bad if Jamison gets the team finally sold to him. Sure, they may lose some money, but the NHL won't be fronting 25m a year for it. If only they could get the people in Glendale that don't want them there to shut up already. They've already done the poll thing what, 2 or 3 times?
Yeah, I doubt that referendum comes to anything.

I thought Quebec's arena would be done before that?

I have Seattle as a future thing because they're supposed to be building a shiny new arena sometime soon. I believe they just voted to think about it...or something.

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12-09-2012, 01:58 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Yeah, I doubt that referendum comes to anything.

I thought Quebec's arena would be done before that?

I have Seattle as a future thing because they're supposed to be building a shiny new arena sometime soon. I believe they just voted to think about it...or something.
Looks like the Quebec arena had ground broken in September of this year, so that's probably 3 years out.

As for seattle, I thought they were thinking of modifiying the basketball arena there to make it usable for hockey? If not, then an arena is still years out.

I still think selling the team to Jamison is the best way to go for now.

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12-09-2012, 02:00 AM
  #458
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I think selling it to Jamison is just delaying the inevitable. Everyone seems to think Glendale is an awful location, so the omen is bad.

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12-09-2012, 02:08 AM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
I think selling it to Jamison is just delaying the inevitable. Everyone seems to think Glendale is an awful location, so the omen is bad.
Him and his cronies seem to like the idea of buying and trying to turn the team around. Make them sign a deal that they can't sell the team for so long. It's not a huge issue if the owners of the team are willing to put up the money to cover the costs a la San Jose. When it's the league paying it though, that's a big difference

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12-09-2012, 11:38 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Isn't Glendale considered in the middle of no where?
It is.

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12-09-2012, 01:04 PM
  #461
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Jamison would be crazy to buy the team any time, but with this lockout the league looks so mickey mouse, he or any other potential suitor in a non-hockey market should back off.

There is no way they'd move the team from Glendale back to Phoenix. The arena in Phoenix wasn't suitable for hockey which is why they moved the team in the first place. Move it to Quebec already, they can play in Le Colisee until the new arena is ready. It holds over 15,000 people who will pay more than $15 a ticket.

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12-09-2012, 10:35 PM
  #462
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Am I the only one that thinks this lockout is good for the Flyers in terms of their on ice success.

One of the biggest reasons why the flyers have had sustained success is simply because Ed Snider has been willing to pay top dollar for players.

The newest proposals, specifically the Owners 3 needs for this new cba, would really hurt us and make it so their is no competitive edge for teams with money.

If those 3 ideas get put into place then there is going to be a lot of parity in the league and a lot of teams losing top players to free agency, on top of that it is going to make draft picks worth their weight in gold simply because of the entry level contracts.

I hope this lockout last all year and the owners come off their demands. If not the flyers are going to get screwed royally.

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12-10-2012, 02:52 AM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Am I the only one that thinks this lockout is good for the Flyers in terms of their on ice success.

One of the biggest reasons why the flyers have had sustained success is simply because Ed Snider has been willing to pay top dollar for players.

The newest proposals, specifically the Owners 3 needs for this new cba, would really hurt us and make it so their is no competitive edge for teams with money.

If those 3 ideas get put into place then there is going to be a lot of parity in the league and a lot of teams losing top players to free agency, on top of that it is going to make draft picks worth their weight in gold simply because of the entry level contracts.

I hope this lockout last all year and the owners come off their demands. If not the flyers are going to get screwed royally.
Get prepared, its going to happen. At least we draft pretty decently.

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Old
12-10-2012, 03:42 AM
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Am I the only one that thinks this lockout is good for the Flyers in terms of their on ice success.

One of the biggest reasons why the flyers have had sustained success is simply because Ed Snider has been willing to pay top dollar for players.

The newest proposals, specifically the Owners 3 needs for this new cba, would really hurt us and make it so their is no competitive edge for teams with money.

If those 3 ideas get put into place then there is going to be a lot of parity in the league and a lot of teams losing top players to free agency, on top of that it is going to make draft picks worth their weight in gold simply because of the entry level contracts.

I hope this lockout last all year and the owners come off their demands. If not the flyers are going to get screwed royally.
I respectfully disagree.

Because the Flyers did not break the bank and sign anyone in the offseason. I'd say we are in a better position in terms of cap space and young talent than many of the top money spenders in the league.

In the event that the entire season is cancelled and the cap is set for 60.3M for 2013-2014.

We will have the following players under contract:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Danny Briere ($6.500m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
DEFENSEMEN
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
BUYOUTS
Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $60,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $49,776,667; BONUSES: $2,705,000
CAP SPACE (15-man roster): $13,228,333

Assuming we resign our vital RFA's:

Wellwood ~.700m
Rinaldo ~ .650m
Bourdon ~ .700m
Gustafsson ~ 1.000m

That leaves approximately $10,878,333 to sign:

(1) top pairing defensemen
(2) bottom 9 forwards
(1) backup goalie

I think it can be accomplished.

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Old
12-10-2012, 08:56 AM
  #465
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NEW YORK -- The NHL and the locked-out players' association are talking again, and a return to the bargaining table could happen soon.

After a few days to cool off following an epic collapse in negotiations, the league and the union have been in touch with each other in an attempt to restart conversations that could save the hockey season.

"Trying to set up something for this week, but nothing finalized yet," NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly wrote Sunday in an email to The Associated Press.
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/87...bor-talks-week

Hopefully this is the season saver.

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12-10-2012, 09:58 AM
  #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post

Assuming we resign our vital RFA's:

Wellwood ~.700m
Rinaldo ~ .650m
Bourdon ~ .700m
Gustafsson ~ 1.000m

Bourdon is still under contract for 2013-14, but is one-way at $612K.


Also, keep in mind, Schenn's real cap hit is not $3.11M

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Old
12-10-2012, 12:12 PM
  #467
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Bruce Garrioch ‏@SunGarrioch

The #NHL and #NHLPA hope to return to the table by Wednesday. That requires agreement by both sides and agreement never comes easy.

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12-10-2012, 12:41 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
I respectfully disagree.

Because the Flyers did not break the bank and sign anyone in the offseason. I'd say we are in a better position in terms of cap space and young talent than many of the top money spenders in the league.

...

That leaves approximately $10,878,333 to sign:

(1) top pairing defensemen
(2) bottom 9 forwards
(1) backup goalie

I think it can be accomplished.
Yeah, but then in '14-'15 we have Schenn, Cooter and Roo all as RFA's and Read as a UFA with only Meszaros' contract giving his money back... so assuming we try to keep at least the big 3 that could potentially be 8M+ in raises, before even trying to re-sign Mesz or Read... so, if they go nuts in '13-'14 it is going to have some dire implications as soon as the next season after.

I still don't think we're in a terrible spot, though - especially if Kimmo takes a 1 year deal for '13-'14 (so his money can be delayed and come due for the big RFA year after), but just thought I'd point it out.

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12-10-2012, 02:37 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
Bruce Garrioch ‏@SunGarrioch

The #NHL and #NHLPA hope to return to the table by Wednesday. That requires agreement by both sides and agreement never comes easy.
WEDnesday ???


do these guys not even notice or care that time is slipping away ??

what else do these jackass' have to do ??? it takes mulitple days to get together ??




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12-10-2012, 02:48 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
WEDnesday ???


do these guys not even notice or care that time is slipping away ??

what else do these jackass' have to do ??? it takes mulitple days to get together ??



They're ***holes.

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12-10-2012, 03:37 PM
  #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
WEDnesday ???


do these guys not even notice or care that time is slipping away ??

what else do these jackass' have to do ??? it takes mulitple days to get together ??



Once you understand how negotiation works, you'll realize that the time they aren't meeting together is as critical or more critical than sitting in a room slamming their heads against the wall. Time apart allows for tempers to cool, new proposals to arise, and frankly, people to crack on their demands.

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12-10-2012, 05:42 PM
  #472
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
I respectfully disagree.

Because the Flyers did not break the bank and sign anyone in the offseason. I'd say we are in a better position in terms of cap space and young talent than many of the top money spenders in the league.

In the event that the entire season is cancelled and the cap is set for 60.3M for 2013-2014.

We will have the following players under contract:

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Danny Briere ($6.500m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
DEFENSEMEN
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
BUYOUTS
Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $60,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $49,776,667; BONUSES: $2,705,000
CAP SPACE (15-man roster): $13,228,333

Assuming we resign our vital RFA's:

Wellwood ~.700m
Rinaldo ~ .650m
Bourdon ~ .700m
Gustafsson ~ 1.000m

That leaves approximately $10,878,333 to sign:

(1) top pairing defensemen
(2) bottom 9 forwards
(1) backup goalie

I think it can be accomplished.


I just want to point out that is a very short term of looking at things.

Eventually we will need to sign free agents, but it will be hard to justify signing players to contracts more expensive than giroux. Now Just look at the briere and bryzgalov signings. Those were done with huge first year money deals and lower compensation at the end to bring down the aav. That wont be allowed anymore. SO that strategy we put into place to entice free agents will no longer be a advantage for us. We will be forced to compete with all other teams , and the lesser teams that need a big free agent signing will now become the most desirable locations since they can offer the most money now, whereas we could offer more money in ways that could bring down the aav.

That weber deal we offered simply wont be allowed anymore. THese are the type of deals that gave us and other teams distinct advantages over smaller markets.

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12-10-2012, 05:45 PM
  #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Am I the only one that thinks this lockout is good for the Flyers in terms of their on ice success.

One of the biggest reasons why the flyers have had sustained success is simply because Ed Snider has been willing to pay top dollar for players.

The newest proposals, specifically the Owners 3 needs for this new cba, would really hurt us and make it so their is no competitive edge for teams with money.

If those 3 ideas get put into place then there is going to be a lot of parity in the league and a lot of teams losing top players to free agency, on top of that it is going to make draft picks worth their weight in gold simply because of the entry level contracts.

I hope this lockout last all year and the owners come off their demands. If not the flyers are going to get screwed royally.
If there is a year to have a lockout from the Flyers perspective, I would say this is it.

It helps the devlopment of players like Schenn and Couturier, it gives Kimmo's body a break, it helps Mezaros heal, it gives us time to deal with the loss of Jagr and Carle, and it perhaps give Pronger a shot at playing again (although I doubt it).

Coming into the (non-existent) season, my goal for the Flyers was to make the playoffs. Unless they have some sort of 1984-85 transformation, I don't see this team as one that is really competitive with the likes of NYR, Pittsburgh, Boston, or Vancouver. I have them picked 6th-9th in the conference.

So, I am not too torn up over the lockout - besides, they don't show any hockey for me here in Alabama. My main fear over the loss of a season is who gets the number 1 pick. I'm betting Pittsburgh or Edmonton, because that would irritate me the most. Columbus will end up with like the 27th pick.

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12-10-2012, 05:49 PM
  #474
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They didn't get robbed, it's a game of chance.
They didn't get robbed, but it certainly wasn't a "just" outcome, if you figure that justice means you get what you deserve. Edmonton has had the first pick 3 years in a row. The league should put something into practice that says if you have the #1 pick one year, you are not able to win the lottery the remaining year, or something to that effect.

The purpose of the lottery is to prevent intentionally losing like Pittsburgh did in 1984. There was no doubt that Columbus was the worst team in the league last year. They were 9 points behind Edmonton.

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12-10-2012, 06:34 PM
  #475
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I just want to point out that is a very short term of looking at things.

Eventually we will need to sign free agents, but it will be hard to justify signing players to contracts more expensive than giroux. Now Just look at the briere and bryzgalov signings. Those were done with huge first year money deals and lower compensation at the end to bring down the aav. That wont be allowed anymore. SO that strategy we put into place to entice free agents will no longer be a advantage for us. We will be forced to compete with all other teams , and the lesser teams that need a big free agent signing will now become the most desirable locations since they can offer the most money now, whereas we could offer more money in ways that could bring down the aav.

That weber deal we offered simply wont be allowed anymore. THese are the type of deals that gave us and other teams distinct advantages over smaller markets.
For 2014-2015, assuming cap increases 7% - 64.521

HARTNELL (4.75) - GIROUX (6.5) - VORACEK (4.25)
SCHENN (3.5) - BRIERE (6.5) - SIMMONDS (3.975)
READ (2.5) - COUTURIER (2.5) - TALBOT (1.75)
WELLWOOD (.8) - 4C (1.2) - RINALDO (.65)
13F (.7)

COBURN (4.5) - GROSSMANN (3.5)
SCHENN (3.6) - GUSTAFSSON (1.1)
BOURDON (.9) - 6/7D (.9)

BRYZ (5.667)
BACKUPG (.9)

= 60.595M

with 1 player left to sign... so yeah, to sign everyone and still have enough money to sign a #1D it would be challenging.

Hate to say it... but if there were an amnesty buyout... I'd strongly consider buying out Briere. Promoting Brayden Schenn to 2nd line C, and signing a legit second line winger:

HARTNELL (4.75) - GIROUX (6.5) - VORACEK (4.25)
2LW (3.5) - SCHENN (3.5) - SIMMONDS (3.975)
READ (2.5) - COUTURIER (2.5) - TALBOT (1.75)
WELLWOOD (.8) - 4C (1.2) - RINALDO (.65)
13F (.7)

COBURN (4.5) - GROSSMANN (3.5)
SCHENN (3.6) - GUSTAFSSON (1.1)
BOURDON (.9) - 6/7D (.9)

BRYZ (5.667)
BACKUPG (.9)

= 57.095M committed ~7.426M to sign 1 player.

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