HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Other Leagues > The KHL
The KHL Discuss the Continental Hockey League (Kontinentalnaya Hokkeynaya Liga).

State of hockey in Ukraine, Belarus and Kazahkstan

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-08-2012, 09:05 PM
  #1
wings5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,268
vCash: 500
State of hockey in Ukraine, Belarus and Kazahkstan

Hello guys, I'm just looking for insight as to how hockey is progressing in the countries Ukraine, Kazahkstan, Belarus. Has there been any notable progression in the hockey programs of these countries? Is it popular amongst the youth? How have the KHL impacted their hockey systems? Have players like Grabovski, Kostitsyn brothers, Antropov, Ponikarovsky inspired kids with the sport back home? Some general questions here, any insight is welcome.

wings5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 02:31 AM
  #2
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,462
vCash: 500
Hard to say because not living there, but I can see positive thing. Belarus and Kazahkstan have team in MHL, which can help their developing system. They have also team in VHL (be aware of new rules about juniors quota). Look, 4 guys (D Zalamay, Kazakevich, Misyul and F Dunaev) will play for Belarus at WJC DivI a few days later. All playing VHL this season.

vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 05:44 AM
  #3
kunabai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minsk
Country: Belarus
Posts: 168
vCash: 525
i live in belarus and it's really hard to be positive

we hardly have any young players who can become a quality substitute for grabovski-kostitsyn's generation (they're arguably our "golden age") in a foreseeable future and there are many problems with kid's hockey (lack of quality coaches, bad financing, etc.)

i'll talk more about it after tonight minsk-riga game, going to the minsk-arena now

kunabai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 06:23 AM
  #4
Vicente
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cologne
Country: Germany
Posts: 1,419
vCash: 500
I don't think KHL had a big impact on ice hockey in these countries. It's good for entertainment but it doesn't get you dozens of world class prospects. Even the KHL/VHL/MHL system has to show if it works for these countries in the next years.

Vicente is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 06:44 AM
  #5
BalticWarrior
Registered User
 
BalticWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Riga
Country: Latvia
Posts: 4,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunabai View Post
i live in belarus and it's really hard to be positive

we hardly have any young players who can become a quality substitute for grabovski-kostitsyn's generation (they're arguably our "golden age") in a foreseeable future and there are many problems with kid's hockey (lack of quality coaches, bad financing, etc.)

i'll talk more about it after tonight minsk-riga game, going to the minsk-arena now
What are your best prospects right now ?

BalticWarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 06:49 AM
  #6
BalticWarrior
Registered User
 
BalticWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Riga
Country: Latvia
Posts: 4,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
I don't think KHL had a big impact on ice hockey in these countries. It's good for entertainment but it doesn't get you dozens of world class prospects. Even the KHL/VHL/MHL system has to show if it works for these countries in the next years.
Ofcourse not it`s been only 5 years since KHL exists it`s not going to work right away,it takes time in 10-15 years we will be able to judge whether or not the system is working,but i can tell you this- system does works in the sense that KHL gets attention for hockey and it can possibly create interest for more parents to bring their youth to hockey rather than any other sport.

BalticWarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 07:55 AM
  #7
Vicente
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cologne
Country: Germany
Posts: 1,419
vCash: 500
By KHL being so much in the spotlight it also can draw attention away from other hockey projects.

Vicente is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 08:05 AM
  #8
SoundAndFury
Registered User
 
SoundAndFury's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helo View Post
What are your best prospects right now ?
As far as I know it's either Gavrus or Hrabarenka.

SoundAndFury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 12:59 PM
  #9
kunabai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minsk
Country: Belarus
Posts: 168
vCash: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helo View Post
What are your best prospects right now ?
if we talk about 1994 and older

goalies: borodulya (1991), shelepnyov (1993), karnaukhov (1994)

forwards
gavrus (94 born, drafted by devils, returned from ontario league, now playing against men in belarusian open league and having great stats - 12 points in 15 games (5+7) and +10, already drawn some comparisons to grabovski with his size and playing style), dunaev (playing in vhl, had good stats in mhl, 93 born), lopachuk (1992, playing 5-6 minutes in the 4th line for dinamo minsk in khl), valkov (1994, 21 games 3+4 -15 in BOL)

d-men
graborenko (playing in ahl, 92 born, good puck-moving skills), gotovets (91 born, ncaa), lisovets (late 94, 2013 eligible, plays for neman in belarusian open league, 23 games 2+7, +19), zalamay (94 born, big size - 196-96, plays in vhl, 27 games 1+4, -3)

we have some talented 1995-96 born d-men in khenkel, klyavzo and dyukov, they all have good potential, but need to work
khenkel is already playing in belarusian open league against men (26 games, 1 assist, but horrible -13, though)
dyukov is khenkel teammate (26 games, 1+1, -3)
klyavzo played last season in russia and was leader and captain of his 1996-born (neva) team, was one of the scoring leaders, while playing at defence. though, he's january-1996 and maybe that's why he's so dominant at this level(age group), he is really big and there are reports that his shot is really hard for the boy of his age. he played also at the same time for 1995-born teams in russia (also for neva st.petersburg) and it was somewhat different though he still managed to score points
klyavzo returned to belarus and is playing in junior league now, though maybe it would be good for him to move to NA or russia (though, there were rumors, that top russian junior teams offered him to join them but they demanded from vadim to change citizenship, vadim refused)

there is more problems with young forwards

though i can recall vlad misnikov (96 born), who was leading scorer of his team last year (if i'm not mistaken), while playing in russia for neva st. petersbourg (was klyavzo teammate) and there was some good reports about him

so at the point it seems we don't have any high-end prospects, just some players who can become solid at their position and some hopes that these d-men can turn into real deal. and besides gavrus you can't find any going-to-be top class forward

i think, we have to have a deeper look at lisovets, maybe he'll turn into something


Last edited by kunabai: 12-09-2012 at 01:19 PM.
kunabai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 01:10 PM
  #10
kunabai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minsk
Country: Belarus
Posts: 168
vCash: 525
today belarus played their first game at wjc-20 div 1 group a vs slovenia
in 2-0 win gavrus had 1+1 with shorthanded goal, and lisovets scored another goal

kunabai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 01:11 PM
  #11
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,462
vCash: 500
as you mentioned, KHL-VHL-MHL developing model is helping Belarus.

Quote:
dyukov is khenkel
Did not they play MHL for Yunost last season?

vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 01:16 PM
  #12
kunabai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minsk
Country: Belarus
Posts: 168
vCash: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
as you mentioned, KHL-VHL-MHL developing model is helping Belarus.


Did not they play MHL for Yunost last season?
dyukov played

khenkel - not

kunabai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 01:18 PM
  #13
BalticWarrior
Registered User
 
BalticWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Riga
Country: Latvia
Posts: 4,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunabai View Post
if we talk about 1994 and older

goalies: borodulya (1991), shelepnyov (1993), karnaukhov (1994)

forwards
gavrus (94 born, drafted by devils, returned from ontario league, now playing against men in belarusian open league and having great stats - 12 points in 15 games (5+7) and +10, already drawn some comparisons to grabovski with his size and playing style), dunaev (playing in vhl, had good stats in mhl, 93 born), lopachuk (1992, playing 5-6 minutes in the 4th line for dinamo minsk in khl), valkov (1994, 21 games 3+4 -15 in BOL)

d-men
graborenko (playing in ahl, 92 born, good puck-moving skills), gotovets (91 born, ncaa), lisovets (late 94, 2013 eligible, plays for neman in belarusian open league, 23 games 2+7, +19), zalamay (94 born, big size - 196-96, plays in vhl, 27 games 1+4, -3)

we have some talented 1995-96 born d-men in khenkel, klyavzo and dyukov, they all have good potential, but need to work
khenkel is already playing in belarusian open league against men (26 games, 1 assist, but horrible -13, though)
dyukov is khenkel teammate (26 games, 1+1, -3)
klyavzo played last season in russia and was leader and captain of his 1996-born (neva) team, was one of the scoring leaders, while playing at defence. though, he's january-1996 and maybe that's why he's so dominant at this level(age group), he is really big and there are reports that his shot is really hard for the boy of his age. he played also at the same time for 1995-born teams in russia (also for neva st.petersburg) and it was somewhat different though he still managed to score points
klyavzo returned to belarus and is playing in junior league now, though maybe it would be good for him to move to NA or russia (though, there were rumors, that top russian junior teams offered him to join them but they demanded from vadim to change citizenship, vadim refused)

there is more problems with young forwards

though i can recall vlad misnikov (96 born), who was leading team scorer last year (if i'm not mistaken), while playing in russia for neva st. petersbourg (was klyavzo teammate) and there was some good reports about him

so at the point it seems we don't have any high-end prospects, just some players who can become solid at their position and some hopes that these d-men can turn into real deal. and besides gavrus you can't find any going-to-be top class forward

i think, we have to have a deeper look at lisovets, maybe he'll turn into something
Belorussian future is not as bleak as you make it out to be.

BalticWarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 01:35 PM
  #14
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,462
vCash: 500
http://mhl.khl.ru/players/18744/#c

vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 01:50 PM
  #15
kunabai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Minsk
Country: Belarus
Posts: 168
vCash: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
oh, sorry, don't even know how i've missed it
i thought that he played in belarusian 2nd league all season long
just forgot this

but i can say that khenkel refused to play in the VHL this season, as it was revealed by yunost long-time head coach mikhail zakharov
zakharov offered him to join the club, but youngster feels more comfortable in BOL and refused to move to a bigger club

though i think there would be no excuses next year, because the club khenkel plays, "yunior", - it's yunost farm in BOL


Last edited by kunabai: 12-09-2012 at 01:56 PM.
kunabai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 01:58 PM
  #16
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunabai View Post
oh, sorry, don't even know how i've missed it
i thought that he played in belarusian 2nd league all season long
just forgot this

but i can say that khenkel refused to play in the VHL this season, as it was revealed by yunost long-time head coach mikhail zakharov
zakharov offered him to join the club, but youngster feels more comfortable in BOL and refused to move to a bigger club

though i think there would be no excuses next year, because the club khenkel plays, "yunior", - it's yunost farm in BOL
ok, nobody knows everything

suprised, that he refused VHL. Hope he will play there next season.

vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 02:08 PM
  #17
wings5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,268
vCash: 500
How about Ukraine, they have some senior players many people know but in Juniors they have been very lackluster. They have a few prospects playing at higher levels but what seems to hurt them is players of Ukranian descent representing Russia i.e seniors Zherdev, Tverdosky, Vishnevski, Zhitnik young players like Gayduchenko prospects like Lysenko, Grigorenko. Though I realize many were born in Russia, they are Ukrainian-Russians and would greatly enhance Ukranian hockey ! Russia has enough depth to compensate.

wings5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:15 PM
  #18
yunost
Registered User
 
yunost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 390
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
How about Ukraine, they have some senior players many people know but in Juniors they have been very lackluster. They have a few prospects playing at higher levels but what seems to hurt them is players of Ukranian descent representing Russia i.e seniors Zherdev, Tverdosky, Vishnevski, Zhitnik young players like Gayduchenko prospects like Lysenko, Grigorenko. Though I realize many were born in Russia, they are Ukrainian-Russians and would greatly enhance Ukranian hockey ! Russia has enough depth to compensate.
I think Ukrainian hockey is majorly on the rise. HC Donbass is a leading factor in this but they have created their league the PHL, with some competitive teams.

Donbass management is really ambitious and want to see Ukraine in the top division for worlds. They provide examples in Germany, France, and Italy that a country does not have to have a hockey-crazy population to be playing in the top division, or as in Belarus and others, the amount of hockey players registered dont have to be that high.

It was mentioned that 'top level hockey will be played in Donbass' and not only meaning the KHL club.
They have a pretty good 98 class that is quite competitive playing against Moscow region teams(their junior league), so it shows that they are working on their development system. Not only that they participate in tournaments in Sweden or Finland against top clubs (I think everyone can agree that Sweden has a top notch junior development system) and do pretty good.

I am not prepared to name prospects as that 20 year gap is probably going to have to play out. But, in 2018 the 98 team will be 20 years old. if there can be one good KHL level player that would be nice, then we have the 99, 00, 01, and 02 classes.... maybe in 2025 we will see high level Ukraine born and trained prospects playing top level hockey.

yunost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 03:58 PM
  #19
wings5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yunost View Post
I think Ukrainian hockey is majorly on the rise. HC Donbass is a leading factor in this but they have created their league the PHL, with some competitive teams.

Donbass management is really ambitious and want to see Ukraine in the top division for worlds. They provide examples in Germany, France, and Italy that a country does not have to have a hockey-crazy population to be playing in the top division, or as in Belarus and others, the amount of hockey players registered dont have to be that high.

It was mentioned that 'top level hockey will be played in Donbass' and not only meaning the KHL club.
They have a pretty good 98 class that is quite competitive playing against Moscow region teams(their junior league), so it shows that they are working on their development system. Not only that they participate in tournaments in Sweden or Finland against top clubs (I think everyone can agree that Sweden has a top notch junior development system) and do pretty good.

I am not prepared to name prospects as that 20 year gap is probably going to have to play out. But, in 2018 the 98 team will be 20 years old. if there can be one good KHL level player that would be nice, then we have the 99, 00, 01, and 02 classes.... maybe in 2025 we will see high level Ukraine born and trained prospects playing top level hockey.
Great post. will be interesting to watch their system progress and see how the top league affects development. How would you rank the PHL in comparison with other European leagues, perhaps around ECHL level? Or VHL level? Theres about over 1 million ukranian canadians and some of the kids I've seen growing up are physical specimans. You can see that in largely out west there is a huge Ukranian and Polish population and many players from the WHL are ukrainian/polish descent. I'm sure if Ukraine would put their focus on hockey and with their relatively large population and strong genetics, they can produce many talented hockey players.

I mean come on, this is not normal !


wings5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 04:16 PM
  #20
malkinfan
Registered User
 
malkinfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Slovenia
Posts: 3,088
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to malkinfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helo View Post
Ofcourse not it`s been only 5 years since KHL exists it`s not going to work right away,it takes time in 10-15 years we will be able to judge whether or not the system is working,but i can tell you this- system does works in the sense that KHL gets attention for hockey and it can possibly create interest for more parents to bring their youth to hockey rather than any other sport.
Your right Helo, it will take a while. People who have become strong fans of Minsk will probably start enrolling their young kids in hockey, and the young kids that attend the games will follow suit in 10 - 15 years when they have there own. Once the ball gets rolling, it will roll strong, it will just take a long time to get it to move...
Getting peoples attention is a huge first start.

malkinfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2012, 11:59 PM
  #21
yunost
Registered User
 
yunost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 390
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
Great post. will be interesting to watch their system progress and see how the top league affects development. How would you rank the PHL in comparison with other European leagues, perhaps around ECHL level? Or VHL level? Theres about over 1 million ukranian canadians and some of the kids I've seen growing up are physical specimans. You can see that in largely out west there is a huge Ukranian and Polish population and many players from the WHL are ukrainian/polish descent. I'm sure if Ukraine would put their focus on hockey and with their relatively large population and strong genetics, they can produce many talented hockey players.
Another very important thing I forgot to mention was that Ukraine has also launched a hockey TV channel that provides alot of coverage of not only the PHL but various other top leagues around the world.
It complements the new league very well because just a league formation is nice, but popularization of the sport is also very important. To that end the channel is far better than anything Belarus or Kazakhstan have, and not only; I havent seen this kind of hockey coverage in Denmark or Norway for example. Try finding the standings of the Italian league.
http://bighockey.ua/ then in the upper right corner you can click the Ukrainian league and see highlights and scores. I still havent found this level of online coverage for the Swiss NLA even!

Its only the second year of all this and it is rather hard for me to rank the PHL. I could try to give you a sense though. Sokil has been competing in the Belarus Open League for many years before joining the PHL, and well run Donbass-2 and maybe another team could compete in BOL, which is just below VHL. Berkut Kiev on the other hand, atop the PHL, has a very competitive roster and could probably challenge top VHL teams on any given night. The VHL in my opinion is no worse than the Swedish second tier Allsvenskan, which is quiet good this year with many locked out NHLers and relegated Eliteserien teams. VHL is definitely closing the gap with other top European leagues, and I think it would be save to say that VHL teams could beat Slovakian league teams and EBEL teams( save maybe the outliers such as Kosice).

To remain ontopic though, it should be worth mentioning that Kazakhstan is improving their hockey lansdscape as well. Barys is not doing aswell as before, but their emphasis on home players has increased(which may be partially the cause). They too have formed a new league I believe, and now have added another VHL team to the traditionally hockey-crazy Kazzinc-Torpedo. So Kazakhstan stands at 1 KHL team, 2 VHL teams, and their own leauge. With an increasing presence in the MHL(same as Belarus btw)

yunost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2012, 06:44 AM
  #22
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,462
vCash: 500
yep. Sariarka Karaganda from Kazakhstan is playing VHL, leading the table, slovak G Kovac is a hero there you know Gangnam style and he has 6 shutouts if I remember


vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2012, 06:45 AM
  #23
wings5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yunost View Post
Another very important thing I forgot to mention was that Ukraine has also launched a hockey TV channel that provides alot of coverage of not only the PHL but various other top leagues around the world.
It complements the new league very well because just a league formation is nice, but popularization of the sport is also very important. To that end the channel is far better than anything Belarus or Kazakhstan have, and not only; I havent seen this kind of hockey coverage in Denmark or Norway for example. Try finding the standings of the Italian league.
http://bighockey.ua/ then in the upper right corner you can click the Ukrainian league and see highlights and scores. I still havent found this level of online coverage for the Swiss NLA even!

Its only the second year of all this and it is rather hard for me to rank the PHL. I could try to give you a sense though. Sokil has been competing in the Belarus Open League for many years before joining the PHL, and well run Donbass-2 and maybe another team could compete in BOL, which is just below VHL. Berkut Kiev on the other hand, atop the PHL, has a very competitive roster and could probably challenge top VHL teams on any given night. The VHL in my opinion is no worse than the Swedish second tier Allsvenskan, which is quiet good this year with many locked out NHLers and relegated Eliteserien teams. VHL is definitely closing the gap with other top European leagues, and I think it would be save to say that VHL teams could beat Slovakian league teams and EBEL teams( save maybe the outliers such as Kosice).

To remain ontopic though, it should be worth mentioning that Kazakhstan is improving their hockey lansdscape as well. Barys is not doing aswell as before, but their emphasis on home players has increased(which may be partially the cause). They too have formed a new league I believe, and now have added another VHL team to the traditionally hockey-crazy Kazzinc-Torpedo. So Kazakhstan stands at 1 KHL team, 2 VHL teams, and their own leauge. With an increasing presence in the MHL(same as Belarus btw)
That is good that they have alot of coverage and are expanding the hockeu knowledge of the viewers, as Helo said improvements will not be seen right away it will take some time. Now the next logical step for Ukraine would be an MHL team composed largely of Ukranian players, not Russian players or any other nationality. At least 80 % of the team should be Ukranian.

wings5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2012, 06:49 AM
  #24
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,462
vCash: 500
As I know Donbass will join MHL, next season if I remember

vorky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-10-2012, 08:54 AM
  #25
wings5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
As I know Donbass will join MHL, next season if I remember
Good for them, they need all these steps do you know if they are considering a team in VHL too. Correct me if I'm wrong if their plan comes to fruition the system of development would look like. Ukraine Juniors-MHL-PHL/VHL-KHL or something like that?......

wings5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:37 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.