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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-08-2012, 10:44 PM
  #526
Quack
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I feel there is a bit too much parity in international hockey right now to say there is any number 1 team at fielding national teams.
The last three world JR champions have all been from different nations (US,Rus,Swe)
The last three WHC Champions have also been from three different natons (Rus,Fin,Cze)
and then you have Canada winning the most recent olympics (which many would say is the biggest of the three)
So in the last three years of hockey, its really hard to say who the best is.

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12-08-2012, 10:50 PM
  #527
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I think Russia might have the edge in terms of the very top talents. I don't think any country has a top 3 better than Malkin, Datsyuk, Ovechkin

Canada: Crosby, Stamkos.....Toews? Giroux?

No other countries even come close to that very top in forwards. Although US and Sweden have very sick defense and goaltending to make up for it.


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12-08-2012, 11:01 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by ViD View Post
Considering both junior and senior level.

With the recent success at the junior hockey (winning couple super series, winning gold and silver at WJHC) plus being constantly successful at senior tourneys for the last 5 years(mostly WHC, Olympics was failed), can we say that at this point Russia is the #1 nation in hockey?

No troll thread, just an opinion.
You have to look at the teams that they send to each competition. I mean after the 2010 Olympics, they only had one player (Perry) join the squad for the 2010 WHC. I would say at the senior level Canada is still number 1, at juniors it's a lot closer but it's not even between Canada and Russia. I think you can put Sweden, USA and Finland in there as well. There are also still some juniors playing at the senior level for Canada, a lot more than any other country.

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12-09-2012, 03:10 PM
  #529
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Got to give Canada that spot at the moment sicne they are the last winners of the olympics.
But Sweden > Russia > Canada in juniors at the moment. This tournment will probobly change that list tho.

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12-09-2012, 04:26 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
How many times have I said it. Its the best JR players vs the best JR players. It is best on best for under 20 players. It evaluates the jr development system of each country only.

Its the highest international title for jr aged players.
Except it's not best on best for under 20 players, often the very best of the best under 20 players are not sent in the tournament. Imagine if Team Canada had Steven Stamkos, John Tavares, Evander Kane, Matt Duchene, in the 2010 World Juniors. Look at all the under-20 Canadians that were in the NHL throughout Canada's 3-year gold drought, obviously there are elite players from other countries that couldn't go either, but there's clearly a lot more Canadians that miss the tournament due to being in the NHL. The fact is, Canada does not send it's best under 20 players to the tournament, they send their best under 20 juniors (in most cases, obviously this year is different).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeoffBrown View Post
I think Russia might have the edge in terms of the very top talents. I don't think any country has a top 3 better than Malkin, Datsyuk, Ovechkin

Canada: Crosby, Stamkos.....Toews? Giroux?

No other countries even come close to that very top in forwards. Although US and Sweden have very sick defense and goaltending to make up for it.
Crosby > Malkin
Stamkos > Ovechkin
Toews = Datsyuk

And Canada's forward depth is much better than Russia's.

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12-09-2012, 06:56 PM
  #531
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It's a provocative statement because, when it comes to HF, and when it comes to Canada, our country is a ****ing fortress.

Everyone gets their hackles up. It's Canada, so you're looking at half the fanbase of this site.

All the Leafs vs. Sens, Habs vs. Leafs, Flames vs. Oilers, it dissipates into a pool of defensive arrogance.

The confidence is thick.

It's misplaced confidence, because Canada just doesn't win enough as it should.

But, it still wins enough to be the team that everyone measures themselves against.

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12-09-2012, 08:59 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
If the CHL is that good, how do explain how they lost 2 of the last 3 Subway Super Series' to Russia?
That's all I got.

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12-09-2012, 09:05 PM
  #533
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That's all I got.
It's really a ridiculous premise. Russia sends a team that plays CDN teams from THREE different leagues. Imagine putting together a CDN team and then having the Russians put together THREE short term teams to play. It would be a freaking wipeout.

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12-09-2012, 09:48 PM
  #534
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It's really a ridiculous premise. Russia sends a team that plays CDN teams from THREE different leagues. Imagine putting together a CDN team and then having the Russians put together THREE short term teams to play. It would be a freaking wipeout.
The premise under the consideration was that CHL is the best development league by a huge margin. This was proved beyond any reasonable doubt by the fact that in 2012 Draft first round, 18 picks were from CHL and only 1 from Russia. That being the case, shouldn't CHL be able to easily beat the Russian juniors, even if not all Canadian junior players are available?

This is very similar to Canada having so much depth at the senior level that it would be able to field (at least) 3 teams that would be able to compete for the Olympic gold. This is why Canada's second/third teams never have problems winning the second rate WHC competition. Oh, wait...

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12-09-2012, 09:56 PM
  #535
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Lots and lots of good players in many countries

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12-09-2012, 10:16 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by Vladiator View Post
The premise under the consideration was that CHL is the best development league by a huge margin. This was proved beyond any reasonable doubt by the fact that in 2012 Draft first round, 18 picks were from CHL and only 1 from Russia. That being the case, shouldn't CHL be able to easily beat the Russian juniors, even if not all Canadian junior players are available?

This is very similar to Canada having so much depth at the senior level that it would be able to field (at least) 3 teams that would be able to compete for the Olympic gold. This is why Canada's second/third teams never have problems winning the second rate WHC competition. Oh, wait...
Can anyone name 9 Russian Superseries players that play/played in the CHL? I wonder why they were here?

As for the inane WHC babble, half of those CDN teams are players what wouldn't even be invited to try out for a 2nd CDN Olympic team. I'd think anyone who even pretends to know about hockey could take note of the list of players Canada leaves off its team would be competitive. Conversely, every other squad has players that wouldn't even be asked to try out for Canada. When you and the others stop grasping for straws to hold onto, you'll stop judging players by how national teams do and simply look at what the players do.

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12-09-2012, 10:27 PM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeoffBrown View Post
I think Russia might have the edge in terms of the very top talents. I don't think any country has a top 3 better than Malkin, Datsyuk, Ovechkin

Canada: Crosby, Stamkos.....Toews? Giroux?

No other countries even come close to that very top in forwards. Although US and Sweden have very sick defense and goaltending to make up for it.
The multi-facet - Crosby > Malkin
The goal scorer - Stamkos > Ovechkin
The houdini - Giroux < Datsyuk

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12-09-2012, 11:27 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Can anyone name 9 Russian Superseries players that play/played in the CHL? I wonder why they were here?

As for the inane WHC babble, half of those CDN teams are players what wouldn't even be invited to try out for a 2nd CDN Olympic team. I'd think anyone who even pretends to know about hockey could take note of the list of players Canada leaves off its team would be competitive. Conversely, every other squad has players that wouldn't even be asked to try out for Canada. When you and the others stop grasping for straws to hold onto, you'll stop judging players by how national teams do and simply look at what the players do.

Can you name 9 Russian NHL players from the past 20 years who developed in CHL and had long and successful careers in NHL?

This is Canada's 2012 WHC team - http://www.tsn.ca/canadian_hockey/feature/?id=63060. Really, none of them would make into Canada's 2nd or 3rd Olympic team?

Your last sentence is gold. We hear from people like you all the time how much depth Canada has and that the development is much better in the NHL. Yet, we should not judge Canada from their performance in a competition which requires lots of depth, i.e. WHC, where they often play against teams filled with KHL players.

I guess the only measurement is the opinion of Canadian fans on the HF Boards.

For the record, I agree that overall Canada is still number 1 hockey country in the world, as is to be expected from a country where it is the number 1 sport. But it is defintely not that much better than some other countries, like Russia and Sweden - especially in terms of the player development and top-level talant,

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12-10-2012, 05:43 AM
  #539
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Guaranteed even with home ice Russia doesn't dominate like Canada did. I like how you just put everything aside and equate it to Canada having home ice advantage, whether we had home ice advantage or not that was a clinic. Complete and utter domination. All I gotta say to Russia is bring it. Can't wait for 2014


Also check out Canada at the WJHC from 2005-2009..yeah we sure enjoyed home ice all those years. Home ice advantage doesn't mean squat. It's nice to have but if your team really needs an extra boost then that says a ton about how mentally weak your team is.
Home ice was a big reason why Canada won in 2010 don't kid yourself man!

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12-10-2012, 06:53 AM
  #540
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Originally Posted by Vladiator View Post
The premise under the consideration was that CHL is the best development league by a huge margin. This was proved beyond any reasonable doubt by the fact that in 2012 Draft first round, 18 picks were from CHL and only 1 from Russia. That being the case, shouldn't CHL be able to easily beat the Russian juniors, even if not all Canadian junior players are available?

This is very similar to Canada having so much depth at the senior level that it would be able to field (at least) 3 teams that would be able to compete for the Olympic gold. This is why Canada's second/third teams never have problems winning the second rate WHC competition. Oh, wait...
Strawman at it's best. The premise was the CHL was the best development league. Noone said by a huge margin.

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12-10-2012, 06:54 AM
  #541
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Home ice was a big reason why Canada won in 2010 don't kid yourself man!
Based on what? How many times has an international senior tourney been won by the host team?

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12-10-2012, 07:19 AM
  #542
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Why is this thread still going? Canada is obviously the best it is really the only true crazy Hockey nation, just take a look at the crazy participation numbers compared to the European countries. It is not really comparable between the two at this stage due to the damaging effects Russia's economy had in the 90's.

Sure international teams can beat Canada in knock out play it has happened in 2 of the 4 best on best Olympics, but no way has Russia over taken Canada. Maybe if the Russian development system continues to improve, and it has been improving rapidly from the poverty stricken state it was in during the 90's then we could start talking. Russia is actually lucky to have the current NHL superstars it has right now, It was not exactly the best time to have been pursuing a Hockey career in Russia.

Russia could become as deep in terms of talent compared to Canada. Reminiscent of the old days of when Canada and the Soviet Union had incredible depth. But for this to occur Russia needs to keep working and improving the development of young players, it is looking good for the future, but the true effects will only be noticed a few years after Sochi.

Some of you guys might attack me for this but I do feel the majority Junior Russian players should try to stay in Russia until they are around 20+ years old before pursuing a move to the NHL . Quite a lot of kids who have not finished their development in Russia decide to go to North America early and play in the junior leagues over there to boost their NHL chances which results in them becoming lost between two completely different systems of development. Basically they end up not polishing the skills they learn in Russia and struggle to adapt to the coaching methods in North America. This does not include the very high end caliber talent as the cream always rises to the top in players who are gifted and quick learners but they are few and far.

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12-10-2012, 07:28 AM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I don't think there's a problem in saying there are 4 top contenders (Russia, Canada, Sweden, USA) and that any of them could beat any other at basically any level, given the 1-game elimination formats of all the big tournaments. There really isn't any point in narrowing it down further than that IMHO (unless you are the IIHF applying a ranking to tournament pool selections for example).
You make a good point...

...but its hard not to award the bragging rights to the nation that won the Olympics.

Somebody gotta have the bragging rights (), and if the Olympics don't apply the actual games will never mean anything. Canada will always have unmatched depth and so forth.

In a case like this, I think you can argue that Russia possibly has moved ahead of Canada but a couple of WCH's never makes a country the clear nr 1.

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12-10-2012, 08:06 AM
  #544
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Originally Posted by Violent By Design View Post
The multi-facet - Crosby > Malkin
The goal scorer - Stamkos > Ovechkin
The houdini - Giroux < Datsyuk
I would disagree that Crosby is better than Malkin right now. He has been in the past! But not right now. And until he plays and proves it again, he isn't better.

Speaking of top end talent, who would match Kovalchuk? Biases aside, I also think Radulov is a top end talent, but of course he is hated in NA and very underestimated.

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12-10-2012, 08:11 AM
  #545
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Originally Posted by Vladiator View Post
The premise under the consideration was that CHL is the best development league by a huge margin. This was proved beyond any reasonable doubt by the fact that in 2012 Draft first round, 18 picks were from CHL and only 1 from Russia. That being the case, shouldn't CHL be able to easily beat the Russian juniors, even if not all Canadian junior players are available?

This is very similar to Canada having so much depth at the senior level that it would be able to field (at least) 3 teams that would be able to compete for the Olympic gold. This is why Canada's second/third teams never have problems winning the second rate WHC competition. Oh, wait...
Judging a junior league strength by draft is not fair, considering the Russian factor and the fact that teams fill the needs more than just draft best to worst. Of course CHL is still the best, but not by a wide margin.

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12-10-2012, 08:29 AM
  #546
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If were just talking national teams, then I would say its currently Russia.

Canada won the 2010 Olympics which is huge but fails to do much in the World Championships lately.

But we cannot forget Finland and Sweden too, both who have been on the top at both Senior and Junior level in the last few years.


In terms of just hockey in general... Canada still has that title of being #1. NHL is #1 even though its a lockout and KHL is growing. Even without the NHL, Canada has Junior hockey and college hockey. Both heavily watched in North Northern America. Even Canadians go topple the NCAA rosters down south. There up at the top at every level and form of hockey there is and participate in every possible tournament. Even back in the day when they were sick of their PROS and best players not playing in international tournys they decided to make their own invitational.

Russias right behind them in that and growing steadily though

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12-10-2012, 08:44 AM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I would disagree that Crosby is better than Malkin right now. He has been in the past! But not right now. And until he plays and proves it again, he isn't better.

Speaking of top end talent, who would match Kovalchuk? Biases aside, I also think Radulov is a top end talent, but of course he is hated in NA and very underestimated.
Well depends what kind of player you're looking for and their value because Canada has two-way players that are very valuable but I don't know if you can compare a two way player to a sniper. No other sniper can match him in terms of goal scoring. But St.Louis Iginla and Toews are all around the same level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamo81 View Post
Why is this thread still going? Canada is obviously the best it is really the only true crazy Hockey nation, just take a look at the crazy participation numbers compared to the European countries. It is not really comparable between the two at this stage due to the damaging effects Russia's economy had in the 90's.

Sure international teams can beat Canada in knock out play it has happened in 2 of the 4 best on best Olympics, but no way has Russia over taken Canada. Maybe if the Russian development system continues to improve, and it has been improving rapidly from the poverty stricken state it was in during the 90's then we could start talking. Russia is actually lucky to have the current NHL superstars it has right now, It was not exactly the best time to have been pursuing a Hockey career in Russia.

Russia could become as deep in terms of talent compared to Canada. Reminiscent of the old days of when Canada and the Soviet Union had incredible depth. But for this to occur Russia needs to keep working and improving the development of young players, it is looking good for the future, but the true effects will only be noticed a few years after Sochi.

Some of you guys might attack me for this but I do feel the majority Junior Russian players should try to stay in Russia until they are around 20+ years old before pursuing a move to the NHL . Quite a lot of kids who have not finished their development in Russia decide to go to North America early and play in the junior leagues over there to boost their NHL chances which results in them becoming lost between two completely different systems of development. Basically they end up not polishing the skills they learn in Russia and struggle to adapt to the coaching methods in North America. This does not include the very high end caliber talent as the cream always rises to the top in players who are gifted and quick learners but they are few and far.
Excellent post I agree 100 %, I actually find no bias to your post unlike many Canadian and Russian posters. Russia is most certainly making strides to improving their development and I believe the 2008 summer series was the last time Russia will be completely outclassed in every aspect and dramatically behind Canada's in development. It should be close from now on and I look forward to many future encounters. I also agree that Russians should stay until they have completed their " Russian style " development and honed their skills and whatever age they are ready if its 19 or 22 then they can come. Very few 17 year old Russians are physically and mentally mature to make the jump. So stay until ready but then please come over.

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12-10-2012, 08:47 AM
  #548
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Russia's pretty good especially at forward. Still their defense and goaltending is very questionable and prevents them from being the #1 hockey nation.

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12-10-2012, 09:01 AM
  #549
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Russia's pretty good especially at forward. Still their defense and goaltending is very questionable and prevents them from being the #1 hockey nation.
Well I'm not sold on our goaltending just yet either, at least at the junior level.

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12-10-2012, 09:07 AM
  #550
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Kazahkstan still has Antropov, no?

Could win gold soon.


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