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UFC on Fox: Henderson vs Diaz

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Old
12-09-2012, 11:36 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
Don't hate Rory at all, but yes he should beat a top ten fighter before he gets his shot. Would prefer that to be against Condit, but a fight against Ellenberger would be another good one.
I think Brydon on Sportsnet wrote that he thinks Rory's next opponent should be Ellenberger and should he win that, take on Condit.

I think a Rory/GSP fight is unlikely. Looking ahead to 2013, I see the following for these 2 guys.

GSP fights Diaz in April/May. Then takes on Hendricks in Oct/Nov. That sets him up for the superfight with Silva in 2014.

Rory fights Ellenberger in Mar - May, then fights Condit in Sep-Oct. If he is successful in both fights, then a title shot would be in order in 2014.

Chances are, GSP decides he's done with the WW division since he's doing the superfight with Silva.

Rory, if GSP decides to remain at WW needs to determine if he can physically grow into a MW fighter. He does appear to have the frame to pack on some more weight. Rogan was talking about Rory weighing close to 200 lbs, so if he packs on another 10 lbs of muscle, that takes him to 210 and he would have to cut about the same amount of weight to make MW as he does now to make WW.

It's important for Rory to continue to train with Tri-star and get better over the next year. See what happens in 2014, but 2013 appears to be set with those 2 fights for each fighter.

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12-10-2012, 01:12 AM
  #577
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Ellenberger is a step down from Penn.

Not sure why Rory should be doing that after a dominant performance.

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12-10-2012, 01:16 AM
  #578
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Let's see if Rory can hang with someone who is a legit wrestler. Koscheck called him out, I'd like to see that fight.

Edit: Ellenberger is not a step down from Penn.

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12-10-2012, 01:24 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by gudas View Post
Let's see if Rory can hang with someone who is a legit wrestler. Koscheck called him out, I'd like to see that fight.

Edit: Ellenberger is not a step down from Penn.
Of course he is.

Who has Ellenberger beaten besides Sanchez and Shields?

Not much of anyone really. A washed up Jay Hieron? Are you really going to tell me Ellenberger isnt a step down from BJ Penn?

Please.

Also, it would not surprise me if Rory tests positive for steriods/peds. He was sporting a pretty serious case of bacne on Saturday.

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12-10-2012, 01:34 AM
  #580
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You say who has Ellenberger beaten besides Sanchez and Shields, well can you point out any decent welterweights BJ has beaten in the last 5 years? Of course, no, you can't. Cause BJ hasn't beaten any. I am a big BJ fan, but he is a shot fighter, especially at welterweight. I wouldn't back him to beat much of anyone at welterweight. Is it a step back, no, it's a step forward by default. I also thought that Ellenberger defeated Condit, would have to rewatch it, was a great fight so it's worth a look. Ellenberger is dynamic, has heavy hands and is good in all facets of his game, so it would be a good test for Rory.

Rory has had bacne for a while btw. Noticed it the first time when he faced Diaz.

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12-10-2012, 01:49 AM
  #581
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Why in the world does Ellenberger get a shot at Macdonald?

Beating a crappier even more shot Jay Hieron?

Getting ktfo by Martin Kampmann?

The better fight for the fans and the ufc, would be Condit.

And lol @ trying to compare Penn to Ellenberger. Just take a look at their opponents over the years. Ill let you decide who is the world class fighter and who isnt.

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12-10-2012, 02:05 AM
  #582
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I can tell you that BJ's not anymore, I don't know if Ellenberger is. In no stratosphere is BJ a world class welterweight. His past record, accumulated three years ago, is irrelevant in determining whether or not he's still an elite fighter. His only win in 3 years is over Matt Hughes. His only wins in the UFC at 170 pounds are over Matt Hughes. You don't have to like it, but those are the facts. You can discredit Ellenberger's opposition, but what cannot be ignored is that BJ hasn't even beaten fighters on that level at welterweight in ages. And the BJ Penn I saw go into the cage on Saturday would have nothing for any top ten welterweight, they would beat him soundly. Clinging to the past like people do with a Chuck serves no purpose, he is no longer an elite fighter at any weight, and hasn't been at welterweight in a really long time.

A Condit/MacDonald fight would be great, if a MacDonald/Ellenberger fight was to happen I'd be happy with that too.

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12-10-2012, 02:21 AM
  #583
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You still havent answered my question.

What justifies Ellenberger getting that fight?

Besides nothing.

How does the ufc sell that fight?

Wouldnt it be easier to sell/hype a Macdonald/Condit rematch?

Of course it would.

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12-10-2012, 03:04 AM
  #584
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They're moving Rory up the ladder slowly, but you make it sound like Ellenberger would be getting a shot at MacDonald which is ridiculous, Rory doesn't hold any sort of standing where you can say a fight against him is getting a shot at him. He is a great prospect with no good wins, who has no interest in fighting GSP for the belt. Why should the UFC rush to throw their #2 guy in there with him?

Would it be easier to sell a Condit fight, yeah sure that's obvious, but it would be better for the UFC to run that fight if Condit got a win before it. What I really wanna see is Rory against Hendricks anyway, but again, it's irrelevant, he does not want to fight GSP. It would also serve a better purpose for the UFC if Rory did not run through the division without the intent of taking a title fight.

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12-10-2012, 03:08 AM
  #585
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You still havent answered the question.

Why should Ellenberger get a fight with Rory?

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12-10-2012, 03:10 AM
  #586
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Also, just to add, how does a great prospect get to be a great prospect with "no good wins"?

That doesnt even make sense.

And, since when is Condit the #2 guy? You think he is getting a rematch with GSP anytime soon?

Not bloody likely.

What gives Rory standing? Well his 14-1 record for one. And the fact his only loss comes against your anointed #2 guy in a back and forth fight where Condit was almost down and out. He has a better record and has already beaten a former champion.

Can you say that about Ellenberger? Why no, no you cant.


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Old
12-10-2012, 03:21 AM
  #587
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He has the tools. He doesn't need to have beaten anyone of value for that to be figured out. The guy's best win is over Mike Pyle, let's not treat him like he has this amazing resume that other fighters can only dare to match up to. Ellenberger's is every bit as good.

Re: Condit, losing a fight to the #1 guy doesn't mean that you aren't the #2 guy at 170. He is the #2 guy. The UFC is going to make title fights with less talented challengers, that's their prerogative, but I'd take Condit against every other welterweight in the company and I don't even like him.

I answered the question perfectly fine. If Rory is not going to fight for the belt at 170 he should not get fights against all of the best guys in the division. Pretty straight forward. I already said that. Maybe you should read the posts again.

Quote:
What gives Rory standing? Well his 14-1 record for one. And the fact his only loss comes against your anointed #2 guy in a back and forth fight where Condit was almost down and out. He has a better record and has already beaten a former champion.

Can you say that about Ellenberger? Why no, no you cant.
He has a better record in what way? Ellenberger has fought better fighters and is 7-2 in the UFC. MacDonald is 5-1. Ellenberger also lost to Condit in a very similar fight to the MacDonald fight. As such this would be a good matchup. I don't get caught up in names, I deal with facts. BJ Penn is a shot fighter and not a top welterweight, a win over him holds very little value other than getting the scalp and name on his record. I put zero stock in it. If you'd like to hold that up as a wonderful achievement feel free.


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12-10-2012, 03:34 AM
  #588
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Sorry, but if you are going to honestly claim that Mike Pyle > BJ Penn or Nate Diaz then you are being dishonest and there is no point in discussing this any further.

You can continue blindly bashing Rory Macdonald now.

Btw, telling me to "read the posts again" is probably beneath you, or at least I thought so.

Does that even deserve a response?

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12-10-2012, 07:02 AM
  #589
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After BJ was announced as rorys' opponent:

Joe public: "this is a big step up for rory, the opponent he's been looking for. "

After he demolishes bj & makes him look like an amateur:

"he still needs to get a legit win over a name fighter."

I have no idea how a quiet Canadian who has been training since he was 14 is getting mixed in with a pompous 205 champion who has talked stupid his entire career.

There is a clear difference between these to if you are out of your teeny years & can actually objectively look the separate situations.

Rory is guilty of the in ring shuffle, hardly the first guy to do it but because he did it to the great BJ, ironically his fans are looking for other things to wine about just like him, & what else? Oh ya, he doesn't want to fight his brother from another mother in George.

How those 2 situations get him into Jones territory is mind boggling.

Jones is hated for the way he snaked Evans & yet rory is hated for doing the opposite?

MAcDonald is a good humble Canadian kid nothing like that arrorgant ass jones. He's confident & quiet which leaves a lot of cracks for the Internet angry dwarves to get on his case.

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12-10-2012, 07:19 AM
  #590
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WHAT?! That's insane! Gus has far superior footwork and technique to any of those fighters, especially at this point in many of their careers. Plus he can actually hang with Jones' stature. I think you're vastly underrating Gus, likely upon the only fight you've watched of him.

He took down Shogun at will, displayed very quick footwork and showed he has a very solid chin. I don't know how you were not impressed with him, unless you're looking at the fight through Jones colored glasses.
Well, are you forgetting about Jones vs Shogun?

Shogun looked awful. Showing better footwork and displaying some takedown capabilities against Shogun is not impressive, at this point in his career. If anything, even the slow, out of shape Shogun showed how to attack Gustafsson effectively during a fight. Jones will be much quicker than Shogun, more versatile, and with his reach, will be able to get in there and throw his jabs and make it his fight.

I think its slightly disappointing seeing Gus plateau a bit. Jones looks better with every fight, and I can't imagine Gus being enough to take the championship, at this point.

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12-10-2012, 09:11 AM
  #591
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Originally Posted by Captain_Cunney View Post
After BJ was announced as rorys' opponent:

Joe public: "this is a big step up for rory, the opponent he's been looking for. "

After he demolishes bj & makes him look like an amateur:

"he still needs to get a legit win over a name fighter."

I have no idea how a quiet Canadian who has been training since he was 14 is getting mixed in with a pompous 205 champion who has talked stupid his entire career.

There is a clear difference between these to if you are out of your teeny years & can actually objectively look the separate situations.

Rory is guilty of the in ring shuffle, hardly the first guy to do it but because he did it to the great BJ, ironically his fans are looking for other things to wine about just like him, & what else? Oh ya, he doesn't want to fight his brother from another mother in George.

How those 2 situations get him into Jones territory is mind boggling.

Jones is hated for the way he snaked Evans & yet rory is hated for doing the opposite?

MAcDonald is a good humble Canadian kid nothing like that arrorgant ass jones. He's confident & quiet which leaves a lot of cracks for the Internet angry dwarves to get on his case.
I agree. I back Macdonald as he is a good ol canadian kid with an epic amount of skill and potential. But... the shuffle it did pissed me off. If he did it and then proceeded to KTFO of BJ then hell ya epic!!! but when he did it a few times and proceeded to not take a huge shot or drastic action it was kind of

BUT he did dominate BJ. I have been a fan of BJ since he broke into the UFC but Rory made him look like an amatuer. Time for BJ to just hang it up and help train the new Gen.

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12-10-2012, 10:22 AM
  #592
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Well, are you forgetting about Jones vs Shogun?

Shogun looked awful. Showing better footwork and displaying some takedown capabilities against Shogun is not impressive, at this point in his career. If anything, even the slow, out of shape Shogun showed how to attack Gustafsson effectively during a fight. Jones will be much quicker than Shogun, more versatile, and with his reach, will be able to get in there and throw his jabs and make it his fight.

I think its slightly disappointing seeing Gus plateau a bit. Jones looks better with every fight, and I can't imagine Gus being enough to take the championship, at this point.
How to attack Gus effectively? Getting floored by him and trying to get a heel hook or a knee bar? Wildly throw haymakers until one lands that doesn't really do much during the fight?

Gus has beaten faster fighters with more of a striking pedigree than Jones. Jones will have problems with his size advantage being almost wholly mitigated. Jones has never fought someone who has the footwork of Gus, at least not at the time they fought. The thing that's going to win Jones the fight is his wrestling and "muscle" sub skills, that's it.

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12-10-2012, 10:26 AM
  #593
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How to attack Gus effectively? Getting floored by him and trying to get a heel hook or a knee bar? Wildly throw haymakers until one lands that doesn't really do much during the fight?

Gus has beaten faster fighters with more of a striking pedigree than Jones. Jones will have problems with his size advantage being almost wholly mitigated. Jones has never fought someone who has the footwork of Gus, at least not at the time they fought. The thing that's going to win Jones the fight is his wrestling and "muscle" sub skills, that's it.
Jones by murder, or any way he wants.

Gus has nothing for Jones.

Zero.

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12-10-2012, 10:31 AM
  #594
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How to attack Gus effectively? Getting floored by him and trying to get a heel hook or a knee bar? Wildly throw haymakers until one lands that doesn't really do much during the fight?

Gus has beaten faster fighters with more of a striking pedigree than Jones. Jones will have problems with his size advantage being almost wholly mitigated. Jones has never fought someone who has the footwork of Gus, at least not at the time they fought. The thing that's going to win Jones the fight is his wrestling and "muscle" sub skills, that's it.
He has, has he?

I severly underestimate Matt Hamil's footwork, I guess... obviously destroying guys like Bader, Rampage, Machida, Evans, Belfort dont compare to this amazing talents that Gus beat like the Impaler and Diabaté.

Love Gus as much as you want, but do it realistically. *looks back at Rua and Penn posts* - yeah, nevermind.

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12-10-2012, 12:44 PM
  #595
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Sorry, but if you are going to honestly claim that Mike Pyle > BJ Penn or Nate Diaz then you are being dishonest and there is no point in discussing this any further.
Nate Diaz hasn't won a single welterweight fight against a guy currently in the UFC, and his best win at that weight was against Marcus Davis. He's a great lightweight, not a good welterweight. Sorry, but you seem to be caught up in names rather than what these fighters actually do in these weight classes. Nate Diaz as a welterweight is not the same fighter who fought his way to the top of the lightweight division.

Quote:
After BJ was announced as rorys' opponent:

Joe public: "this is a big step up for rory, the opponent he's been looking for. "

After he demolishes bj & makes him look like an amateur:

"he still needs to get a legit win over a name fighter."
Not me. I said right when this fight was announced that BJ was shot and this was a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
It's a fight that will expose Rory to casual fans but it isn't going to be competitive in the least.
Sorry that I don't think beating BJ is a big deal, but I don't...at all.

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12-10-2012, 01:12 PM
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There are a ton of options for Rory before GSP. I think it would only be appropriate to continue to climb up the latter vs an Ellenburger/Kampman/Fitch/Kos fighter. If a win, then move on to Hendricks/Diaz/Condit.

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12-10-2012, 01:13 PM
  #597
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I wanna see Gus taking on Hendo or machinda before the title :/

Other than that...Henderson looks freaking good out there. I think he'll hold that belt for a long time.

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12-10-2012, 01:34 PM
  #598
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I wanna see Gus taking on Hendo or machinda before the title :/

Other than that...Henderson looks freaking good out there. I think he'll hold that belt for a long time.
I hope so. A loss to JBJ, means a follow up match against an Evans/Hendo... that could spell 2 fight losing streak, something he wants to avoid at this point in his career.

I dont think Rua is close to being a top 5 in the LHW division, right now, and the top 5 are well below Jones. That's a huge jump for a guy I want to see stick around for a long time.

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12-10-2012, 03:25 PM
  #599
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Originally Posted by Ziggy66 View Post
I agree. I back Macdonald as he is a good ol canadian kid with an epic amount of skill and potential. But... the shuffle it did pissed me off. If he did it and then proceeded to KTFO of BJ then hell ya epic!!! but when he did it a few times and proceeded to not take a huge shot or drastic action it was kind of

BUT he did dominate BJ. I have been a fan of BJ since he broke into the UFC but Rory made him look like an amatuer. Time for BJ to just hang it up and help train the new Gen.


He could have followed it up more, but you know he was doing it because of BJs cheating/roid talk about Rory.

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12-10-2012, 03:44 PM
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