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Phoenix LXVI: Get Your Kicks On Thread LXVI

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Old
12-09-2012, 09:21 PM
  #676
Undertakerqc
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Fun link on the time left for Jamieson... and maybe the Coyotes rescue plan: http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown...unt+down+clock

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12-09-2012, 09:37 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Fun link on the time left for Jamieson... and maybe the Coyotes rescue plan: http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown...unt+down+clock
Haha, is that your "countdown to Quebec" clock?!

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12-09-2012, 09:38 PM
  #678
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Haha, is that your "countdown to Quebec" clock?!
Well i would not go that far... could be Seattle...

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12-09-2012, 09:56 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post

Sure.... it's sad she fought to prevent Canada from getting another team. Downright sacrilege it is.....
You would think that someone who has been in politics as long as she has would have thicker skin and would be more mature.

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12-09-2012, 09:59 PM
  #680
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Yeah..... and I guess it was okay for people to crawl out of the woodwork and harass her beforehand..... prompting her response. Never see anyone condemning that behavior.

Sure.... it's sad she fought to prevent Canada from getting another team. Downright sacrilege it is.....
Well, it's pretty obvious you will keep making excuses for her behavior, waving those Joyce pom-poms high in the sky, as always. I think she had you at "hello, I'm a Coyotes fan". Regardless, she's out, as it should have been years ago.

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12-09-2012, 10:09 PM
  #681
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You would think that someone who has been in politics as long as she has would have thicker skin and would be more mature.
One would think that, wouldn't they?

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12-09-2012, 10:16 PM
  #682
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Who's the professional wrestler with Jamison?

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12-09-2012, 10:55 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
One would think that, wouldn't they?
I got blocked for asking if they could appoint someone to fill Lieberman's seat. My location says "North America" so I guess she figured out I was Canadian.

She really shouldn't be so scared of Canadians... mod


Last edited by Killion: 12-09-2012 at 11:03 PM. Reason: lets not go there...
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12-10-2012, 12:16 AM
  #684
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Sooo...you guys staying or what? Would be a shame to see you get moved.

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Old
12-10-2012, 01:02 AM
  #685
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
Nashville faced a lot of these same issues.

You fix them by having a consistent winner, and hiring good business/hockey people who can sell the experience and woo sponsors...

and for a couple of years the NHL did let nashville have as many saturday home games as possible, so they may do it for Phoenix as well
Not nearly the same. Phoenix got a playoff team from the beginning. Nashville had to wait several years before making the playoffs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by canuckster19 View Post
Interesting, you do know that it's generally accepted that the 23% of Canadian teams contributed over 33% of NHL revenue? You are also aware that the CBC gives 100 million per season for the Saturday night + partial playoff rights of 7 teams, while NBC is giving 200 million for 23 teams over the entire season, hmmm yeah Canadian teams bad. Canadian teams bad considering Canadian teams don't see 100% of that 100 million since it is shared amongst the American teams, I wonder if any of that NBC contract comes up north, I doubt it.
All the money is pooled and divided among the teams since the NHL is technically a non profit organization. All profits from the league as a whole, tv contracts, merchandising, etc. gets shipped back to the teams after reduction for expenses.

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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
I would be smirking too if some idiots just handed me an average of over 15 mil a year for 20 years....


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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
23 Minute song? **** son, awesome!

*EDIT* I've heard this song before, love it. Another fave one from "Echoes - Best of Pink Floyd" Shine On You Crazy Diamond.
You should have seen them in concert on the Animals tour when they blew up (exploded) a pig balloon blimp like thing.

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12-10-2012, 04:22 AM
  #686
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Who's the professional wrestler with Jamison?
The Leather Shiek. Finishing move involves a big novelty sized check.

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12-10-2012, 06:42 AM
  #687
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The Leather Shiek. Finishing move involves a big novelty sized check.
I just want to say that I'm thankful I wasn't eating cereal at the time of reading this....

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12-10-2012, 07:27 AM
  #688
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I just want to say that I'm thankful I wasn't eating cereal at the time of reading this....
Can't say I had the same luck.. Othmar, time to get that bridge-building business back up, you owe me a new keyboard.


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12-10-2012, 07:48 AM
  #689
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i think people are being unfair to joyce. i would like to thank her for the hours of entertainment and sheer wackiness she has provided these boards over the years. i wish her and her family and friends all the best this holiday season and a happy new year.

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12-10-2012, 09:07 AM
  #690
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Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
The Arena Managers are the NHL IIRC (or at least the company the NHL used to buy the team) and have been criticized heavily for their handling of the event booking for the team. At the very least a decent arena manager would be able to bring Jobing.com into the realm of the other teams in the league that have multiple arenas in the city (as right now it sits just below the Halifax Metro Centre and just above the Florence Civic Centre).

Even Miami/Sunrise both have arenas in the top 30 and the Panthers have also received their fair share of criticism for building an arena outside of the major centre they're trying to represent. At the very least Phoenix and Glendale should be able to operate at similar levels to the Twin City teams.

Not to mention the Sprint Centre in KC outdraws twenty NHL arenas but as far as I know Glendale has never looked into the potential of not having an anchor tenant but keeping the arena open.
Even if Jobing.com Arena got more events, it may not be enough events to cover all the expenses. Some of the other cities with two arenas have secondary tenants (both Twin Cities arenas do as does HP Pavilion in San Jose). Except for New York (who could probably support three), Los Angeles, and Chicago, I don't think a city can support two large arenas for professional teams. There just aren't enough secondary tenants, circuses, concerts, Harlem Globetrotters, tractor pulls, WWE/MMA, etc, events to go around to two arenas. It's just all bleak.

One thing Jobing.com is probably going to have to do is find a secondary tenant. They had one in the NLL as the Arizona Sting. They lasted four years. The problem, of course, is there aren't many options. US Airways already has the Mercury and Rattlers. Because of the Suns, a NBDL team is unlikely. As long as the Coyotes are there, any minor league ice hockey is not going to happen (it could happen if they do re-locate). There isn't an indoor soccer league big enough for an arena this size. NLL failed once, but perhaps it could succeed again. A minor league arena football team wouldn't need an arena this size. There isn't a college basketball team in the area that would move to it.

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12-10-2012, 09:20 AM
  #691
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Not to derail the thread yet again, but a few things need to be cleaned up here....

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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Yes, Winnipeg is sold out over the next 3 years. But part of atomic's point is.... Winnipeg is maxed out now. It's not going to get any bigger unless TNSE jacks ticket prices up.

And part of the reason why it was able to contribute to rev sharing is that it has one of the lowest payrolls in the NHL. What happens when TNSE is forced to begin paying higher contracts to attract the marque players everyone contends is needed to win a cup, or reward top players within it's own system in order to keep them??

This was my one and only concern with Winnipeg getting a team back. How would they fare in over the long haul (10+ years) as player salaries continue to climb. I knew the fans would respond... I knew they would be successful out of the box. But you can only squeeze so much out of a market.
Of course we all realize that low payrolls have absolutely nothing to do with contributions to revenue sharing. Revenue sharing is exactly what it sounds like, sharing revenue. Payroll, expenses, average daytime winter high, none of it factors into the equation. So Winnipeg will or won't contribute to revenue sharing based on how much revenue they rake in. Payroll doesn't matter at all.

And if you're concerned about how Winnipeg will do when player salaries continue to climb, you better be awfully concerned how Phoenix will do when player salaries continue to climb. One thing's for certain, there will still be a salary cap, and it will still be tied to HRR. So not only do the Coyotes have to find a bunch more fans and charge a bunch more money for tickets, they will then have to raise ticket prices (and all other revenue streams) by 5% to 7%, pick your number, just to keep up with madated rises in the salary cap and floor. Good luck with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomic View Post
a whole 100 million a year!!! the los angeles dodgers baseball contract will be around 245 million a year. that is for one baseball team. and doesn't even include playoff games. 100 million a year is nothing for sports tv contracts. the nhl wants to keep teams in big markets that is why phoenix will exist as an nhl franchise. the nhl needs tv contracts to grow. there is no more money in tickets sales. most teams are selling tickets at high prices and lots of them. at a certain point if you raise them higher you will make less money. \
It is quite noble for you to mock the Canadian national TV contract in an attempt to show how awesome the Phoenix market is and how important it is for growth in TV revenue in the future, but let's put some facts into it.

US National TV Deal = $2 billion for 10 years (with 9 years left on the contract), so $200 million a year, and it's fixed until about 2021. That means, with or without Phoenix, the annual amount won't change for 8 more years. At least. Want to laugh at the Canadian TV contract and how it stacks up with the Dodgers? The US contract is peanuts. It's pathetic, by any standard.

Canadian National TV Deals:

(1) CBC = $100 to $110 million annually
(2) TSN = $33.5 to $40 million annually
(3) RDS = $15 million annually to the NHL (plus another $20 million to the Montreal Canadiens)

So, at the high end of the range, 3 networks paying for national TV rights in Canada add up to $165 million a year. Both the CBC and TSN contracts expire within the next 2 years, and both will see rights fees go up substantially at that time.

So if you want to laugh at how small Canada is, when they provide $165 million of the $365 million a year that goes into the shared TV pool, go right ahead. I'll repeat - Canada generates 45% of the total money from shared TV contracts. But Canada, with about 1/10 of the population of North America, and only 7 of 30 NHL teams, will soon generate more national TV money that the US. Arguments that having unsuccessful teams that no one watches in the middle of a desert somehow turning into billions in US TV money have been debunked long ago.

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12-10-2012, 09:25 AM
  #692
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Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/J...N-ratings.aspx
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/J...N-ratings.aspx
. Phoenix averaged 9,000 viewers on their local RSN in 2010-11, 7,000 in 2011-12
To me, these have always been bigger statistics then they seem, and highlight how likely a market is to embrace the sport. To watch a game, you don't have to worry about the price of tickets, parking, driving to the arena, or anything else. You just need to sit on your couch, beverage of choice in hand, and turn on the television.

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12-10-2012, 10:05 AM
  #693
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Not to derail the thread yet again, but a few things need to be cleaned up here....



Of course we all realize that low payrolls have absolutely nothing to do with contributions to revenue sharing. Revenue sharing is exactly what it sounds like, sharing revenue. Payroll, expenses, average daytime winter high, none of it factors into the equation. So Winnipeg will or won't contribute to revenue sharing based on how much revenue they rake in. Payroll doesn't matter at all.

And if you're concerned about how Winnipeg will do when player salaries continue to climb, you better be awfully concerned how Phoenix will do when player salaries continue to climb. One thing's for certain, there will still be a salary cap, and it will still be tied to HRR. So not only do the Coyotes have to find a bunch more fans and charge a bunch more money for tickets, they will then have to raise ticket prices (and all other revenue streams) by 5% to 7%, pick your number, just to keep up with madated rises in the salary cap and floor. Good luck with that.



It is quite noble for you to mock the Canadian national TV contract in an attempt to show how awesome the Phoenix market is and how important it is for growth in TV revenue in the future, but let's put some facts into it.

US National TV Deal = $2 billion for 10 years (with 9 years left on the contract), so $200 million a year, and it's fixed until about 2021. That means, with or without Phoenix, the annual amount won't change for 8 more years. At least. Want to laugh at the Canadian TV contract and how it stacks up with the Dodgers? The US contract is peanuts. It's pathetic, by any standard.

Canadian National TV Deals:

(1) CBC = $100 to $110 million annually
(2) TSN = $33.5 to $40 million annually
(3) RDS = $15 million annually to the NHL (plus another $20 million to the Montreal Canadiens)

So, at the high end of the range, 3 networks paying for national TV rights in Canada add up to $165 million a year. Both the CBC and TSN contracts expire within the next 2 years, and both will see rights fees go up substantially at that time.

So if you want to laugh at how small Canada is, when they provide $165 million of the $365 million a year that goes into the shared TV pool, go right ahead. I'll repeat - Canada generates 45% of the total money from shared TV contracts. But Canada, with about 1/10 of the population of North America, and only 7 of 30 NHL teams, will soon generate more national TV money that the US. Arguments that having unsuccessful teams that no one watches in the middle of a desert somehow turning into billions in US TV money have been debunked long ago.
Lawyered!

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Old
12-10-2012, 10:26 AM
  #694
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Originally Posted by JimAnchower View Post
Even if Jobing.com Arena got more events, it may not be enough events to cover all the expenses. Some of the other cities with two arenas have secondary tenants (both Twin Cities arenas do as does HP Pavilion in San Jose). Except for New York (who could probably support three), Los Angeles, and Chicago, I don't think a city can support two large arenas for professional teams. There just aren't enough secondary tenants, circuses, concerts, Harlem Globetrotters, tractor pulls, WWE/MMA, etc, events to go around to two arenas. It's just all bleak.

One thing Jobing.com is probably going to have to do is find a secondary tenant. They had one in the NLL as the Arizona Sting. They lasted four years. The problem, of course, is there aren't many options. US Airways already has the Mercury and Rattlers. Because of the Suns, a NBDL team is unlikely. As long as the Coyotes are there, any minor league ice hockey is not going to happen (it could happen if they do re-locate). There isn't an indoor soccer league big enough for an arena this size. NLL failed once, but perhaps it could succeed again. A minor league arena football team wouldn't need an arena this size. There isn't a college basketball team in the area that would move to it.
Jim,
Please define who the Twin Cities are in your thoughts. I am not wanting to argue. Rather, my bias is Twin Cities = St Paul/Minneapolis. And, I think you have something else in mind.

Thanks.

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12-10-2012, 10:29 AM
  #695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimAnchower View Post
Even if Jobing.com Arena got more events, it may not be enough events to cover all the expenses. Some of the other cities with two arenas have secondary tenants (both Twin Cities arenas do as does HP Pavilion in San Jose). Except for New York (who could probably support three), Los Angeles, and Chicago, I don't think a city can support two large arenas for professional teams. There just aren't enough secondary tenants, circuses, concerts, Harlem Globetrotters, tractor pulls, WWE/MMA, etc, events to go around to two arenas. It's just all bleak.
While true, it has also been a point the COG has either refused to look into or refuse to accept: that they will never make any money with their arena and their focus should be on minimizing losses.

The costs of financing the arena and hiring and arena manager (for a reasonable AMF) focusing on concerts and other events will close the loss gap while still bringing people to Westgate. Certainly more than financing the arena and paying the massive AMF just to keep the Coyotes around.

Quote:
One thing Jobing.com is probably going to have to do is find a secondary tenant. They had one in the NLL as the Arizona Sting. They lasted four years. The problem, of course, is there aren't many options. US Airways already has the Mercury and Rattlers. Because of the Suns, a NBDL team is unlikely. As long as the Coyotes are there, any minor league ice hockey is not going to happen (it could happen if they do re-locate). There isn't an indoor soccer league big enough for an arena this size. NLL failed once, but perhaps it could succeed again. A minor league arena football team wouldn't need an arena this size. There isn't a college basketball team in the area that would move to it.
Unfortunately the Sting had two problems: while their attendance was among the lowest in the league at the time AND they had to fly-in all their players. I think that even if they had the among the highest attendances in the league, the latter would have still made the franchise lose money in the long term. I can't see that changing today, unless they want to try and pay most of the guys enough to move down to Arizona for the season.

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12-10-2012, 10:32 AM
  #696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Jim,
Please define who the Twin Cities are in your thoughts. I am not wanting to argue. Rather, my bias is Twin Cities = St Paul/Minneapolis. And, I think you have something else in mind.

Thanks.
Target Centre: Timberwolves and the Lynx as a secondary tenant.
Xcel Energy Centre: Wild and the Swarm as a secondary tenant.


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12-10-2012, 10:32 AM
  #697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Jim,
Please define who the Twin Cities are in your thoughts. I am not wanting to argue. Rather, my bias is Twin Cities = St Paul/Minneapolis. And, I think you have something else in mind.

Thanks.
The same Minneapolis/St. Paul. Target Center has the Timberwolves and Lynx, while Xcel Energy Center has Wild and Swarm. Even if both teams don't sell-out, they still sell tickets and bring in revenue.

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12-10-2012, 10:44 AM
  #698
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Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
While true, it has also been a point the COG has either refused to look into or refuse to accept: that they will never make any money with their arena and their focus should be on minimizing losses.

The costs of financing the arena and hiring and arena manager (for a reasonable AMF) focusing on concerts and other events will close the loss gap while still bringing people to Westgate. Certainly more than financing the arena and paying the massive AMF just to keep the Coyotes around.
I agree. This folly started when the COG was convinced that the mall would look great with a large indoor arena. A mall shouldn't need an arena to go along with it. A mall should be a destination in and of itself. If it needs an $180 million arena to draw people to it, it's going to have problems. But that's beside the point.

I agree that the COG would be better served either doing one of the options from a previous post or just keeping the arena around, get a good arena manager to book more events, and minimize the loses. Once the retail real estate market recovers, figure out something better. Right now, the focus should be about minimizing losses and not throwing money the city doesn't have at keeping a tenant there.

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12-10-2012, 11:30 AM
  #699
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So now we are all going to become paranoid over an avatar????
I'm amused if people think The Leather Shiek is managing her own social media portfolio. What's the probability of a 70-year-old politician having the time, ability, and motive to upload avatar pictures to troll Canadians? Somewhere around 0%?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimAnchower View Post
Even if Jobing.com Arena got more events, it may not be enough events to cover all the expenses.
"May not" is being really generous. And that has long been the punchline for anyone with a basic understanding of Gov & Econ. With the JIG Lease, there is no potential for the arena and Westgate revenues to ever cover the expense of the AMF. It is a guaranteed multi-million dollar loss every year, plus - as a bonus, it leaves the arena debt completely unfunded. It really is spectacular thinking. The city takes the rent, surcharges, and taxes that were meant to pay the arena construction bond debt and pledges those monies towards the AMF instead. But, since there's nowhere near $15MM worth of revenue, they can't even cover the AMF payment.

They defund the arena debt payment entirely but it's not even enough to pay the AMF.

Visionary.

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12-10-2012, 02:07 PM
  #700
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post

Visionary.
That is the perfect word for this situation. There were significant problems back when the arena was only in it's planning stages and they were seemingly ignored.

#1. The arena's location was not in a centralized place for the Phoenix area. This means a lot of potential fans are less likely to go to a game because of where the arena is.

#2. There is another large, modern arena in better, more centralized location. In addition, the main tenant of that arena is more entrenched in the area. So this new arena would be competing with the existing arena for tenants and concerts.

#3. The proposed main tenant of the proposed arena competes in a sport that can best be described as non-traditional. In addition, the team already had some problems attracting fans, though the arena they competed in wasn't designed for ice hockey. There wasn't a lot of history to indicate there was a strong likelyhood of success. The best that could be said of it was there was some potential.

On top of that, the economy tanked. But the city invested $180 million into the arena despite the above problems. They then spent another $50 million keeping the team for another two years. Now, there is a proposal to give another $300+ million to the team's potential owner to keep it at the arena. But none of the three problems have been corrected and have instead just continued. And the city has already invested $230 million with a lot more on the way. This, with the city struggling to stay above water.

I understand the phrase "in for a penny, in for pound", but Glendale is taking this to obscene levels.

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