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Statement from Larry Tanenbaum (Leafs Owner) / Ron Burkle's (Penguins)

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Old
12-07-2012, 06:57 PM
  #26
htpwn
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
So if this did happen, theoretically, would you expect them to have different messages?
I would have expected them to release no messages, as has been the norm since the lockout began.

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12-07-2012, 06:59 PM
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I would have expected them to release no messages, as has been the norm since the lockout began.
And have Crosby and Hainsey be the only ones telling us about the meetings?

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12-07-2012, 07:08 PM
  #28
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And have Crosby and Hainsey be the only ones in the media telling us about the meetings?
The players have been venting their views on the negotiating sessions for months; the owners have been comfortable with Bettman being their mouthpiece.

The only times owners have made comments is when it benefits the league's image.

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12-07-2012, 07:11 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
The players have been venting their views on the negotiating sessions for months; the owners have been comfortable with Bettman being their mouthpiece.

The only times owners have made comments is when it benefits the league's image.
It would be extremely difficult for Bettman to give his account of what happened seeing as he wasn't there

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12-08-2012, 08:33 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
It would be extremely difficult for Bettman to give his account of what happened seeing as he wasn't there
Daly was and given his press conference, I think it is safe to assume that Bettman was very much plugged in to what was occurring in the room.

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12-08-2012, 08:57 AM
  #31
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The PA pissed off the four owners they could've needed the most.

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12-08-2012, 09:14 AM
  #32
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Tanenbaum is a savvy businessman and quite ruthless in his own right otherwise his success would be miniscule.

To have him say he was taken aback by the duplicitous behaviour of Don Fair, is saying a lot. As an owner in the MLS&E empire and as a head honcho in the construction business, he no doubt has seen a lot of ******-baggery up close and personal.

While the owners are no angels the problem in these negotiations is now self-evident

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12-08-2012, 10:19 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
Tanenbaum is a savvy businessman and quite ruthless in his own right otherwise his success would be miniscule.

To have him say he was taken aback by the duplicitous behaviour of Don Fair, is saying a lot. As an owner in the MLS&E empire and as a head honcho in the construction business, he no doubt has seen a lot of ******-baggery up close and personal.

While the owners are no angels the problem in these negotiations is now self-evident
That's the way the league is trying to spin it for sure but if you read the Hainsey article up on TSN it sounds like the league was trying to pin a breakdown on Fehr, that as soon as the players asked to bring their representative back in to finish up the deal the owners acted as if that would kill the negotiations.

Call me cynical but I see a hell of a lot of manipulation of the fans, the media and the players not at the table coming out of this latest blow up and the whole meeting without Gary and Don in the room scenario from the offer of the meeting in the first place right down to the emotional explosion press conference at the end.

To me it sounds like the league never had any intention to give up anything in these negotiations it was more a tactic to try and break the union and cut Fehr out.

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12-08-2012, 11:58 AM
  #34
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we each see it our own way, but Tanenbaums comment came after he saw Fehr in action

adrian dater stated that a player mentioned that Fehr instructed his guys to disregard the offer and hold-out for more!

so much for tweets huh?

the union has gone far past the tipping point to where any kind of gain in this dung-storm has already been negated by losses. The newest of the casual fans in the US may never come back thereby making the 50% not quite as attractive as it would be if the game would continue to grow even by an average of the last 3 years.

I don't see where it gets the owners to keep this lock-out going, specifically ones like Tanenbaum whose club really does lose a lot of money when the doors are shut, or a guy like Vinick who's been pouring money into that team and arena in order to attract and keep fans and who badly needs the momentum of the last few years in order to re-coup some of his investment. I can't explain it all can you?

I have not heard one reasonable explanation from the player-centrics as to why the owners are doing this other then the mis-placed notions that the PA propoganda machine keeps reiterating. Tired notions of the players giving, giving, giving and the owners taking taking taking and the players as victims of the man and how Bettman somehow controls guys like Snider, Jacobs and Anschutz and makes them do his evil bidding.

It's all non-sense, for one while Gary Bettman may be the point man for the owners, he is their employee and so does their consensus bidding. Fehr seems to be running his own operation based entirely on an agenda that only he knows. It just seems odd to me that the owners said we have to have these items and Fehrs response was to negate all of them, not one or two but all three.

as Tanenbaum said "if I didn't see it for myself I wouldn't have believed it"

There are still more then a few owners in baseball who could've told them all about it

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12-08-2012, 12:04 PM
  #35
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as Tanenbaum said "if I didn't see it for myself I wouldn't have believed it"...
... ya, we do "see it our own way" koho and Im not buying this little act by one of the leads in Larry Tanenbaum. They dont come any more manipulative & Machiavellian than that one. Im calling this entire episode a setup, a choreographed stage play.

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12-08-2012, 12:32 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
Tanenbaum is a savvy businessman and quite ruthless in his own right otherwise his success would be miniscule.

To have him say he was taken aback by the duplicitous behaviour of Don Fair, is saying a lot. As an owner in the MLS&E empire and as a head honcho in the construction business, he no doubt has seen a lot of ******-baggery up close and personal.

While the owners are no angels the problem in these negotiations is now self-evident
I think the real problem comes from the disconnect between Fehr and the players.

You put 6 billionaires / mega-millionaires (all of whom are extremely business savvy) in a room with 18 under-educated jocks, and I don't think you need an MBA to know who's going to win that negotiation.

The move to get the head honchos out of the room was a great play by the NHL. Gary Bettman isn't an better of a negotiator than Larry Tannenbaum or Ron Burkle.... Donald Fehr is a substantially better negotiator than Sidney Crosby or Ron Hainsey. From a labour relations standpoint, if you're running a more "normal" (say the auto workers) union who's in a work stoppage... are you really going to put assembly line workers in the room with the C-level execs?

The players hired Fehr becuase they wanted to get the best deal they could possibly get. If they were just interested in playing, Fehr either wouldn't have been hired, or been hired with a secret deadline of when they would agree to a deal. If Fehr has a deadline, I suspect that would've been when an 82 game season is still possible, or maybe when a season is still possible.

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12-08-2012, 04:03 PM
  #37
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This late set of developments, the break-off live on TV and all that, seems like theatrics, doesn't it? To me it seems the League owners have grown to personally dislike the Union's negotiators. As childish as this seems, it is apparent.

I think I'd try another negotiator before decertifying the union. Let Gretzky save hockey.

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12-08-2012, 04:08 PM
  #38
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That "cheapskate" spends to the cap, every year.
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proof?
Look at the Bruins from 1995-2001.

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Old
12-10-2012, 09:34 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... ya, we do "see it our own way" koho and Im not buying this little act by one of the leads in Larry Tanenbaum. They dont come any more manipulative & Machiavellian than that one. Im calling this entire episode a setup, a choreographed stage play.

I really don't know whether it's choreographed or not nor do you

LarryT rarely if ever speaks with the media, I don't think his underling Bettman could order him to do so let alone what to say!

Fehr has never been a true deal maker he fights a war or attrition in which both sides lose, his tactics include non-communication, obsfucation(to his own membership) and non explainable delays.

and thats what LarryT was commenting on

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12-10-2012, 09:46 AM
  #40
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I think the real problem comes from the disconnect between Fehr and the players.

You put 6 billionaires / mega-millionaires (all of whom are extremely business savvy) in a room with 18 under-educated jocks, and I don't think you need an MBA to know who's going to win that negotiation.

The move to get the head honchos out of the room was a great play by the NHL. Gary Bettman isn't an better of a negotiator than Larry Tannenbaum or Ron Burkle.... Donald Fehr is a substantially better negotiator than Sidney Crosby or Ron Hainsey. From a labour relations standpoint, if you're running a more "normal" (say the auto workers) union who's in a work stoppage... are you really going to put assembly line workers in the room with the C-level execs?

The players hired Fehr becuase they wanted to get the best deal they could possibly get. If they were just interested in playing, Fehr either wouldn't have been hired, or been hired with a secret deadline of when they would agree to a deal. If Fehr has a deadline, I suspect that would've been when an 82 game season is still possible, or maybe when a season is still possible.

Matter of opinion, but I don't think the owners/players meeting was designed to get the players to agree to a deal without Fehr in the room. I think the meeting was designed to hear from the players themselves on what issues they would compromise on which would give the league some advantage in how to propose their next offer.

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12-10-2012, 09:59 AM
  #41
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On Friday I was fairly certain that LT and RB's statements were geniune. But given the articles I've read over the weekend and this morning, it seems more plausible to me that they were in on a concerted effort by the NHL/Proskauer to get the players to leave Fehr at the door.

Fehr is making the Owners work for a CBA. He's not playing by their rules. Every take-it-or-leave-it offer has been met with a counterproposal. The NHL is frustrated. Bettman singling out Fehr in his statement was a clear attempt to pursuade mutiny. The NHL doesn't want to make any more concessions and they know they might have to if Fehr is still steering the NHLPA's ship.

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12-10-2012, 11:37 AM
  #42
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tweet from Dater

From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in (Wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"

seems pretty obvious what caused the chill
It really seems that Fehr has been doing this right along, such as when the NHL made the 50/50 proposal in Oct to save the season.

During the 94 MLB strike, Fehr told the players that the owners had a date in mind when they would make their best offer. The owners said they did not. That date never came. the World Series was lost and the next year the courts ordered them back on the field. Fehr did not negotiate an agreement.

He knows how to say no and to litigate, but I don't think he's a deal maker.

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12-10-2012, 11:48 AM
  #43
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Fehr is making the Owners work for a CBA. He's not playing by their rules. Every take-it-or-leave-it offer has been met with a counterproposal. The NHL is frustrated. Bettman singling out Fehr in his statement was a clear attempt to pursuade mutiny. The NHL doesn't want to make any more concessions and they know they might have to if Fehr is still steering the NHLPA's ship.
I look at it this way: If it's just a case of "not wanting" to make more concessions, then who knows what the owners might still come up with. If they do in fact come up with more concessions, then they've been their own worst enemy, by continually making out as though every offer is a 'take it or leave it' and then coming back with yet another series of concessions. Using that stupid tactic, when is the PA ever to know that if they don't hold out longer they won't get something better?

However, if it comes to the point where the owners really believe that they can't concede anything more without risking a CBA that could put many owners in dire straits between now and the next CBA, then they damn well shouldn't be coming back with even more concessions. There eventually has to be a line that they draw and say that they can't concede anything more; but how is the PA ever to know when and where that line is.

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12-10-2012, 02:57 PM
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I look at it this way: If it's just a case of "not wanting" to make more concessions, then who knows what the owners might still come up with. If they do in fact come up with more concessions, then they've been their own worst enemy, by continually making out as though every offer is a 'take it or leave it' and then coming back with yet another series of concessions. Using that stupid tactic, when is the PA ever to know that if they don't hold out longer they won't get something better?

However, if it comes to the point where the owners really believe that they can't concede anything more without risking a CBA that could put many owners in dire straits between now and the next CBA, then they damn well shouldn't be coming back with even more concessions. There eventually has to be a line that they draw and say that they can't concede anything more; but how is the PA ever to know when and where that line is.
I think it was the PA that moved the goalposts?

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12-10-2012, 03:06 PM
  #45
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I look at it this way: If it's just a case of "not wanting" to make more concessions, then who knows what the owners might still come up with. If they do in fact come up with more concessions, then they've been their own worst enemy, by continually making out as though every offer is a 'take it or leave it' and then coming back with yet another series of concessions. Using that stupid tactic, when is the PA ever to know that if they don't hold out longer they won't get something better?

However, if it comes to the point where the owners really believe that they can't concede anything more without risking a CBA that could put many owners in dire straits between now and the next CBA, then they damn well shouldn't be coming back with even more concessions. There eventually has to be a line that they draw and say that they can't concede anything more; but how is the PA ever to know when and where that line is.
Exactly right. Fehr keeps calling their bluff... and they keep proving him right. It's a game of chicken until the last minute and we're almost there, buckle up.

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12-10-2012, 03:08 PM
  #46
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I think it was the PA that moved the goalposts?
They are. And that fits in nicely with MoreOrr's point.

To answer MoreOrr's question, I believe the the NHLPA has an internal deadline in mind and will continue to try to squeeze the rock dry until then. The negotiating committee will not send a NHL proposal to formal vote unless they believe that proposal is the very best they can get (deadloss aside).

You're right. There's no way for the NHLPA will know if a better deal can be made. It's a game of chicken right now. Does the NHL want to risk nuclear war by putting a worse offer on the table? The NHLPA is betting no at this point.


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Old
12-10-2012, 03:37 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Mr Sakich View Post
tweet from Dater

From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in (Wed.) and told us we could get more and to hold out"

seems pretty obvious what caused the chill
Absolutely. Fehr enjoying locking out the NHL.

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12-10-2012, 08:34 PM
  #48
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I look at it this way: If it's just a case of "not wanting" to make more concessions, then who knows what the owners might still come up with. If they do in fact come up with more concessions, then they've been their own worst enemy, by continually making out as though every offer is a 'take it or leave it' and then coming back with yet another series of concessions. Using that stupid tactic, when is the PA ever to know that if they don't hold out longer they won't get something better?

However, if it comes to the point where the owners really believe that they can't concede anything more without risking a CBA that could put many owners in dire straits between now and the next CBA, then they damn well shouldn't be coming back with even more concessions. There eventually has to be a line that they draw and say that they can't concede anything more; but how is the PA ever to know when and where that line is.
First of all I am decidedly on the owners side, primarily because the more owner friendly the deal the better it is for the well being of the league, especially for the middle and lower tier teams. Hockey players make way too much $ for a gate driven league with 4th sport (at best) status in the USA.

That being said, if you look at the last CBA as the starting point (as you do in negotiations) then the players have been consession bargaining. Keeping the status quo is seen as a NHL consession. Agreeing not to demand as much as they originally offered is seen as an NHL consession. Anything agreed on now will be a better CBA than the last one for the owners. However, the players do have take what they can at this point, soon the owners will start taking back what they have put on the table and it will only get worse for the players.

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