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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Has Russia overtaken the #1 spot in World Hockey?

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Old
12-10-2012, 10:13 AM
  #551
Luck 6
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I don't see it, no disrespect.

As others have said, Olympic gold is the big one. The WC lacks all of Canada's best players, it isn't an accurate measure. WJC is fun, but again, we're not talking the best of Canada vs. the best of Russia here. You could make a case for Russia in terms of winning more medals than Canada in recent years, but I think the worth of each medal has relevance as well.

If Russia wins it in 2014, we will certainly have a good debate to ponder over here. The Olympics is where each country brings their best, you need to beat Canada at their best.

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12-10-2012, 11:23 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
It's a provocative statement because, when it comes to HF, and when it comes to Canada, our country is a ****ing fortress.

Everyone gets their hackles up. It's Canada, so you're looking at half the fanbase of this site.

All the Leafs vs. Sens, Habs vs. Leafs, Flames vs. Oilers, it dissipates into a pool of defensive arrogance.

The confidence is thick.

It's misplaced confidence, because Canada just doesn't win enough as it should.

But, it still wins enough to be the team that everyone measures themselves against.
Very well said! Canada is still on top, but they are not winning so repetitively and so decisively as to merit what fans of other countries perceive as the arrogant chest-thumping and put downs that dominate these threads. You start to think, "Ok, this is a Canadian message board, why bother?" I notice a lot of former Russian posters have just stopped posting. They know that anytime you post a pro-Russian (not anti-Canadian) message, you are going to get mauled by the vastly greater number of Canadians who post here. I'll admit that I have given in to flaming myself at times just to punch back. I will continue to post, however, until they force me to stop.

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12-10-2012, 11:26 AM
  #553
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Why didn't USA win in 2002 then?

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12-10-2012, 11:34 AM
  #554
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Can anyone name 9 Russian Superseries players that play/played in the CHL? I wonder why they were here?

As for the inane WHC babble, half of those CDN teams are players what wouldn't even be invited to try out for a 2nd CDN Olympic team. I'd think anyone who even pretends to know about hockey could take note of the list of players Canada leaves off its team would be competitive. Conversely, every other squad has players that wouldn't even be asked to try out for Canada. When you and the others stop grasping for straws to hold onto, you'll stop judging players by how national teams do and simply look at what the players do.
Its a contradiction to say, on the one hand, that the CHL has far greater quality and depth than junior programs in other countries, and then say, in the same breath, that Canada can only beat the best of other junior programs if they have the top 20 select players in the lineup at the same time. That implies that the CHL is equal to, or only slightly better at this moment in time, than the competition. You can't say that the CHL has great depth and talent, and then say that if they put the top 80 out of more than 1,200 players in the league, as in the SSS, they should expect to get beaten.

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12-10-2012, 11:48 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Based on what? How many times has an international senior tourney been won by the host team?
Do you think that the host country hockey status might have something to do with that? How many picked Japan to win the hockey Gold Medal at Sapporo (just 18 years after losing 17-0 against the Soviets at Lake Placid). The Czechs and Dominic Hasek just snuck by them. How heavily favored were the Italians in 2006. Want some evidence of the value of home ice? How about Lake Placid in 1980, home of the Miracle on Ice?

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12-10-2012, 11:53 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Dynamo81 View Post
Why is this thread still going? Canada is obviously the best it is really the only true crazy Hockey nation, just take a look at the crazy participation numbers compared to the European countries. It is not really comparable between the two at this stage due to the damaging effects Russia's economy had in the 90's.

Sure international teams can beat Canada in knock out play it has happened in 2 of the 4 best on best Olympics, but no way has Russia over taken Canada. Maybe if the Russian development system continues to improve, and it has been improving rapidly from the poverty stricken state it was in during the 90's then we could start talking. Russia is actually lucky to have the current NHL superstars it has right now, It was not exactly the best time to have been pursuing a Hockey career in Russia.

Russia could become as deep in terms of talent compared to Canada. Reminiscent of the old days of when Canada and the Soviet Union had incredible depth. But for this to occur Russia needs to keep working and improving the development of young players, it is looking good for the future, but the true effects will only be noticed a few years after Sochi.

Some of you guys might attack me for this but I do feel the majority Junior Russian players should try to stay in Russia until they are around 20+ years old before pursuing a move to the NHL . Quite a lot of kids who have not finished their development in Russia decide to go to North America early and play in the junior leagues over there to boost their NHL chances which results in them becoming lost between two completely different systems of development. Basically they end up not polishing the skills they learn in Russia and struggle to adapt to the coaching methods in North America. This does not include the very high end caliber talent as the cream always rises to the top in players who are gifted and quick learners but they are few and far.
I agree with everything you said. Well said, indeed!

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12-10-2012, 01:09 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Strawman at it's best. The premise was the CHL was the best development league. Noone said by a huge margin.
The goalposts keep moving in this discussion to make arguing a nonsense point possible.

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12-10-2012, 01:52 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Do you think that the host country hockey status might have something to do with that? How many picked Japan to win the hockey Gold Medal at Sapporo (just 18 years after losing 17-0 against the Soviets at Lake Placid). The Czechs and Dominic Hasek just snuck by them. How heavily favored were the Italians in 2006. Want some evidence of the value of home ice? How about Lake Placid in 1980, home of the Miracle on Ice?
How about the WHC's:

2012, Sweden or Finland
2011 - Slovakia
2008 - Canada
2007 - Russia
2004 - Czech Republic
2003 - Sweden
2002 - Finland
2002 - USA
2000 - Russia
1997 - Finland
1995 - Sweden
1992 - Czechoslovakia
1991 - Finland
1989 - Sweden

Canada in 2010 was the only winner in the last fourteen times where the host had a good chance of winning. If anything, it could be argued that home ice decreases your chances.

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12-10-2012, 07:04 PM
  #559
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[QUOTE=daver;56423073]How about the WHC's:

2012, Sweden or Finland
2011 - Slovakia
2008 - Canada
2007 - Russia
2004 - Czech Republic
2003 - Sweden
2002 - Finland
2002 - USA
2000 - Russia
1997 - Finland
1995 - Sweden
1992 - Czechoslovakia
1991 - Finland
1989 - Sweden

Canada in 2010 was the only winner in the last fourteen times where the host had a good chance of winning. If anything, it could be argued that home ice decreases your chances.[/QUOTE

How could it be argued that home ice DECREASES a national team's chance of winning? Just by the chart you have listed above? Just because there were a number of times in the history of the WHC where the host country didn't win, therefore it was a disadvantage to have home ice? That's ridiculous. What is becoming increasingly true in the WHC is that the concept of home ice is changing because so many fans (Russians as an example) are traveling to the tournament in numbers, and their voices ring out nearly as strongly as the home fans. That was true in 2008 in Quebec, and it was true in 2012 in Sweden/Finland. There were hardly any Russian fans in Vancouver because the tickets got gobbled up by Canadians and Americans. There is no way that having loud and raucus fans HURTS your cause!

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12-10-2012, 07:10 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
I don't see it, no disrespect.

As others have said, Olympic gold is the big one. The WC lacks all of Canada's best players, it isn't an accurate measure. WJC is fun, but again, we're not talking the best of Canada vs. the best of Russia here. You could make a case for Russia in terms of winning more medals than Canada in recent years, but I think the worth of each medal has relevance as well.

If Russia wins it in 2014, we will certainly have a good debate to ponder over here. The Olympics is where each country brings their best, you need to beat Canada at their best.
If Russia wins it in 2014, there will be no debate. Russia WILL be 1 if they win. Right now, they are not though.

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12-10-2012, 08:21 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
If Russia wins it in 2014, there will be no debate. Russia WILL be 1 if they win. Right now, they are not though.
So a single win erases years of failure? Good to know.

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12-10-2012, 08:37 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I would disagree that Crosby is better than Malkin right now. He has been in the past! But not right now. And until he plays and proves it again, he isn't better.

Speaking of top end talent, who would match Kovalchuk? Biases aside, I also think Radulov is a top end talent, but of course he is hated in NA and very underestimated.
Malkin has been my favorite player since his rookie season, but your homer glasses would have to be pretty thick to say he is better than Sid. Sid matched Geno's production after coming back from injury and outperformed him in the the playoffs. Anything Sid wants to improve on in his game, he masters over an offseason, he is ridiculous. Isn't happy with his faceoffs, next season he is the best faceoff guy on the team; wants to shoot more, wins the Rocket the following season. People seem to like to downplay him after his injury, negating the fact that he missed a seasons worth of hockey and still put up 37 points in 22 games.

Crosby is the best player in the world because he is the most determined to be. It's as simple as that.

Anyway, this thread is silly. Any one of Sweden, Canada, Russia, or USA could beat each other in any given best-vs-best game.

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12-10-2012, 09:15 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I would disagree that Crosby is better than Malkin right now. He has been in the past! But not right now. And until he plays and proves it again, he isn't better.

Speaking of top end talent, who would match Kovalchuk? Biases aside, I also think Radulov is a top end talent, but of course he is hated in NA and very underestimated.
Well personally I would match up Datsyuk with Toews, as they've produced at nearly identical rates for the past few years and are both elite defensively. I'd compare Kovalchuk's dynamic offensive talents to Giroux's, and I think Tavares is better than Radulov. I agree that Radulov is Russia's 5th best forward though. IMO there's a clear drop off in talent after that for Russia though in comparison to Canada's superstars. Crosby, Stamkos, Toews, Giroux, Tavares are relatively close to Malkin, Ovechkin, Datsyuk, Kovalchuk, Radulov but after that I think there's a clear advantage for Canada.

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12-10-2012, 09:52 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
So a single win erases years of failure? Good to know.
years of failure.......?

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12-10-2012, 09:57 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
years of failure.......?
Probably referring to the fact that in the 4 Olympics since NHL players have been allowed to play, Russia only has a silver and a bronze. Considering the talent of their team, that is probably considered failure.

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12-10-2012, 10:21 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Probably referring to the fact that in the 4 Olympics since NHL players have been allowed to play, Russia only has a silver and a bronze. Considering the talent of their team, that is probably considered failure.
I don't consider that a failure. Disappointing in recent years, maybe. Then again, Russia has 1 gold, 4 silvers, 2 bronzes in the past 8 WJC tournaments, and 3 golds, 1 silver, 2 bronzes in the WC during that same span.

Personally I consider our international performances in recent years to be stellar.

I know I'm regurgitating a lot of the same stuff that's gone on in this thread, but the point isn't quite driving home to some of the posters here. The Olympics are great, but it's not the only international tournament. North Americans may not care about the WC, but the rest of the hockey world does. It's not exactly Russia's fault that top Canadian players don't bother to attend. All they can really do is continue to beat Canadian "B" teams year in and year out, but they're still beating Canadian teams. You can talk all you want about being the best, having the best players, best coaches, best youth development system, etc etc, but at some point they need to put up or shup up and that opportunity, whether Canadians like it or not, arises ever year at the WC.

I'm fine with the logic that the Olympic winner determines the best hockey country for the next four years, except no Canadian seems to preach that when Canada doesn't win. If Russia does win in Sochi, how can any Canadian hockey fan argue, with a straight face, that hockey Canada is superior when the basis of your position is that very tournament? Other than that player X >>> player Y
argument which really only effectively showcases a supreme ignorance of how the sport of hockey is played.

Hockey Canada is #1 right now, but you might not be #1 forever. If the players had that attitude, maybe they would bother showing up to the WCs to defend their place at the top.

I really don't see why it's so offensive to suggest that Russia is becoming a challenger to the throne.

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12-10-2012, 10:53 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
I really don't see why it's so offensive to suggest that Russia is becoming a challenger to the throne.
It isn't.

I personally do not see how it is offensive for Canadians to agree that we are #1 right now, but apparently it makes us arrogant.

But like the other poster said, unless yo win you fail (at least for the big hockey nations) But 1 win does not erase many past failures and 1 lose does not erase many past victories, at least in my book. When it happens on a regular basis, then we will talk.

And by that I do not mean Canada or Russia winning or losing every year, but when it becomes clear that it is a toss up and one clearly isn't better than the other (record wise).

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12-10-2012, 10:54 PM
  #568
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
I'm fine with the logic that the Olympic winner determines the best hockey country for the next four years, except no Canadian seems to preach that when Canada doesn't win. If Russia does win in Sochi, how can any Canadian hockey fan argue, with a straight face, that hockey Canada is superior when the basis of your position is that very tournament? Other than that player X >>> player Y
argument which really only effectively showcases a supreme ignorance of how the sport of hockey is played.
I would never base who is better based on 1 elimination tournament. In fact, it's rather simple-minded to do so. I didn't think Canada was the best soccer nation in CONCACAF because we won the Gold Cup.

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12-10-2012, 11:35 PM
  #569
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I do, because the other measures are even worse.

Yeah, it's one tournament, but everyone knows what it means.

The team that steps up for those games, and plays well under pressure, when it counts, deserves the accolades.

I find it hilarious to see Canadians saying, "We're #1", but if the Russians win at Sochi, "They're not #1 because they haven't won enough."

Well, we won in Vancouver, on home ice.

Aside from that, since 2010, we haven't medalled at the WCs and haven't won at the WJCs.

I stand by my opinion that to win the Olympics is to be the top hockey nation. The other tournaments have systematic barriers to entry for certain players.

That also means that Canada is the current champion.

And, it also means that, if Russia wins in 2016, then they are, just as the Swedes are the previous champions from 2006.

If you disagree with me, then you pretty much have to concede that Canada has done very little to warrant being #1 lately, aside from winning the Olympics.

So pick a side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear
North Americans may not care about the WC, but the rest of the hockey world does.
North Americans cared about the World Cup, but the Europeans certainly didn't.

Although Finland certainly would have if they had won in 2004. The hockey world would have been better off if they had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear
If the players had that attitude, maybe they would bother showing up to the WCs to defend their place at the top.
They know that their fans really don't see the WCs having any relevance to their position in world hockey.

They're not going to go just to prove it to you.


Last edited by NyQuil: 12-10-2012 at 11:49 PM.
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12-10-2012, 11:46 PM
  #570
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Probably referring to the fact that in the 4 Olympics since NHL players have been allowed to play, Russia only has a silver and a bronze. Considering the talent of their team, that is probably considered failure.
I dont think Finland is in top 5 nations in the world and we have won:

2010: Olympic bronze
2006: Olympic silver
2004: World cup silver

And yet US is without a doubt number 2 nation ?
2010: Olympic silver
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12-10-2012, 11:52 PM
  #571
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
I personally do not see how it is offensive for Canadians to agree that we are #1 right now, but apparently it makes us arrogant.
An arrogant person is the only person that believes he/she is the best at something. That is not true of Canadians now, but I think it will be if Russia wins gold in Sochi, and Canadians continue to believe they're the best. Russia has put themselves in a position to overtake Canada with quality WJC/WC performances, but they haven't finished jumping that hurdle until they win on the biggest stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
North Americans cared about the World Cup, but the Europeans certainly didn't.
Any time you feel compelled to blame the rest of the world for something, it might be wise to adjust your perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
They're not going to go just to prove it to you.
I'm not asking them to, but it is going to affect my opinion of them. They don't have to care. Neither do you.


Last edited by hairylikebear: 12-11-2012 at 12:08 AM.
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12-11-2012, 12:19 AM
  #572
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I do, because the other measures are even worse.

Yeah, it's one tournament, but everyone knows what it means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
The team that steps up for those games, and plays well under pressure, when it counts, deserves the accolades.
Olympic seedings are important, as well as medals, country pride, prestige and bragging rights. So whatever Canadian teams played in recent WCs, they didn't step up? They didn't play well under pressure? What happened exactly?


Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
Aside from that, since 2010, we haven't medalled at the WCs and haven't won at the WJCs.
WCs take a lot of commitment (yearly preperations and Eurotours for some countries) and not some patch job of volunteers getting together for a tour of Europe. I think that is really starting to sink in with Hockey Canada and US. Just read some articles around last WC in the press.

It's not an easy tournament to win by any stretch of imagination. Whatever country wins deserve a lot of credit. Yet you dismiss this tournament completely? Ignorant, very ignorant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I stand by my opinion that to win the Olympics is to be the top hockey nation. The other tournaments have systematic barriers to entry for certain players.
What exact "barriers" prevented Canada from putting together a better team for WC in any of the past 5 years?

Just to be clear:
-NHL Playoffs are NOT an excuse or "barriers", as obviously proven by many countries. Usually there are only 2-4 NT players that are occupied for the playoff part of WC. Like who could play last year from LA Kings or NJD? Just a handful of players.

-Caring or not caring is not an excuse. Emotional notes are NOT attached to team standings at the end of the tournament.

Yes, give more credit to Olympics, I agree. But give the credit to other major international tournaments that it deserves too. They take a lot of commitment, hard work and hockey wealth of a country to win. There is no question that this tournament got a whole lot more competative in the last 10 years. Lots of NHL stars now are proud to play for their countries. Canada is just not at the same level right now, and if they don't get on it they are going to become a joke in WCs (if they haven't already).

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12-11-2012, 12:24 AM
  #573
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I dont think Finland is in top 5 nations in the world and we have won:

2010: Olympic bronze
2006: Olympic silver
2004: World cup silver

And yet US is without a doubt number 2 nation ?
2010: Olympic silver
--
--
It's interesting where the apparent cut-off is. The 2002 Olympics don't quite count, hmm?

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12-11-2012, 12:26 AM
  #574
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
It's interesting where the apparent cut-off is. The 2002 Olympics don't quite count, hmm?
Actually I'm just going to use 2010 as the cut off annnnnnd USA #1!!! Well actually #2 but whatever.

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12-11-2012, 12:40 AM
  #575
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
It's not an easy tournament to win by any stretch of imagination. Whatever country wins deserve a lot of credit. Yet you dismiss this tournament completely? Ignorant, very ignorant.
You ask whether I dismiss a tournament that has been hosted a grand total of once in Canada in its entire history?

Now who is ignorant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
But give the credit to other major international tournaments that it deserves too.
No thanks.

I enjoy watching them for the entertainment value, but aside from about 2 minutes of "Hey, we won", I have no real lasting emotional tie to any Canadian result at the WCs, gold or not.

Mainly I just like to see interesting line combinations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
If they don't get on it they are going to become a joke in WCs (if they haven't already).
Not really something I'm worried about.

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