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Old
12-10-2012, 11:34 AM
  #501
FanSince2014
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
Crazy... even the smartest player sounds lost.

Westgarth (Princeton grad) is on Hockey Central...

Doug MacLean asks ONE question about the make whole and contract issues... and Westgarth goes off on a babbling tangent and he's completely lost.
This is so classic, especially coming on the tails of Westgarth accusing the owners of not being informed.

SMH

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12-10-2012, 11:34 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
"Most students who got into Princeton had GPAs close to a 4.0, SAT scores (CR+M+W) above 2100, and ACT composite scores above 30. Also realize that a lot of red dots are hidden beneath the blue and green in the upper right corner of the graph -- many students with a 4.0 GPA and extremely high standardized test scores get rejected from Princeton".

http://collegeapps.about.com/od/GPA-...pa-sat-act.htm
Not saying that Westgarth isn't smart but if you have a talent that the Ivys want they'll find a way for you to get in. Whether its a tuba player (and they don't give out musical scholarships either) or a hockey player. They don't give out athletic scholarships but people who have a financial need hardly pay anything anyway.

Again, you certainly have to be bright and a good student, but don't kid yourself, many of the players on an Ivy league's athletic team would not have gotten into the school if not for the fact that they play that particular sport.

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12-10-2012, 11:34 AM
  #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
MacLean said something (and I'm paraphrasing) like:

"Kevin, you've been in every negotiation session so please correct me if I'm incorrect... but both sides claim to want 50-50 and the players say they will get to 50-50... but you also asked for 393mil in the make whole provision and the owners gave 300... that puts you guys over 55% in the first year and 54% in the second year... or is the make whole provision not tied to the HRR split?"

His response was "Well you have to understand... I'm a hockey player for a living... so some of the technical information like that is going to be lost on me..."

MacLean says "Well you're a smart guy... you're a Princeton grad"

Westgarth: "Thanks for that. Well it just comes down to this... the owners don't seem like they want to negotiate at certain parts and it's a give and take process.." and so on and so forth.

Flew right over his head.
Could just be ducking the question because the answer to the question doesn't sounds great. He certainly doesn't pivot on the question as seamlessly as politicians or people in the public eye, but it sounded like he didn't want to answer the question to me.

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12-10-2012, 11:35 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by PhysicX View Post
Has this been posted?
https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

Further NHL regular season cancellations today. Thru Dec 30th.
Anyone with half a brain predicted this would happen today, even the guys in the PA

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12-10-2012, 11:36 AM
  #505
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Originally Posted by oil slick View Post
Could just be ducking the question because the answer to the question doesn't sounds great. He certainly doesn't pivot on the question as seamlessly as politicians or people in the public eye, but it sounded like he didn't want to answer the question to me.
On the Vancouver station driving in, Aaron Ward said that the owners had told others that they were impressed with Wesgarth in the meetings and his grasp on the issues. I suspect that he has been told not to discuss specifics.

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12-10-2012, 11:37 AM
  #506
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
Sidney Crosby says he won't be part of CBA talks when they resume. It sounds like Burkle/Vinik/Tanenbaum/Chipman won't either.

https://twitter.com/reporterchris/st...81711936880640
sids feelings are hurt? or he just doesnt like the fact that it didnt work out and he wasnt the hero?

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12-10-2012, 11:37 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by oil slick View Post
Could just be ducking the question because the answer to the question doesn't sounds great. He certainly doesn't pivot on the question as seamlessly as politicians or people in the public eye, but it sounded like he didn't want to answer the question to me.
The answer to the question would be easy:

"The players agreed to get the overall HRR split to 50-50. Those numbers need three to four season to get to 50-50 because of the make whole provision which the owners put forth in order to satisfy our request of honoring current contracts in full. While it's not 50-50 right off the bat, it satisfies something that is very important to the players while setting up the financial stability and equality for the future that the owners say is very important to them."

(In a Stephen Colbert voice): PRINCETON DIPLOMA AND NHL CONTRACT PLEASE!!!

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12-10-2012, 11:37 AM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
He is a litigator and not a very good negotiator.
He's a fine negotiator.

While he was submitting the same proposal 5 times, the owners were moving towards the PA on almost every issue.

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12-10-2012, 11:38 AM
  #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
MacLean said something (and I'm paraphrasing) like:

"Kevin, you've been in every negotiation session so please correct me if I'm incorrect... but both sides claim to want 50-50 and the players say they will get to 50-50... but you also asked for 393mil in the make whole provision and the owners gave 300... that puts you guys over 55% in the first year and 54% in the second year... or is the make whole provision not tied to the HRR split?"

His response was "Well you have to understand... I'm a hockey player for a living... so some of the technical information like that is going to be lost on me..."

MacLean says "Well you're a smart guy... you're a Princeton grad"

Westgarth: "Thanks for that. Well it just comes down to this... the owners don't seem like they want to negotiate at certain parts and it's a give and take process.." and so on and so forth.

Flew right over his head.
I can't believe the gaul he had to call the owners uniformed.

After hearing Campoli's 'eloquent' description of the ongoings and now Westgarth's, there's just no words that I have to describe the level of incompetency that these guys display.

Sad, sad, sad.

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12-10-2012, 11:38 AM
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
MacLean said something (and I'm paraphrasing) like:

"Kevin, you've been in every negotiation session so please correct me if I'm incorrect... but both sides claim to want 50-50 and the players say they will get to 50-50... but you also asked for 393mil in the make whole provision and the owners gave 300... that puts you guys over 55% in the first year and 54% in the second year... or is the make whole provision not tied to the HRR split?"

His response was "Well you have to understand... I'm a hockey player for a living... so some of the technical information like that is going to be lost on me..."

MacLean says "Well you're a smart guy... you're a Princeton grad"

Westgarth: "Thanks for that. Well it just comes down to this... the owners don't seem like they want to negotiate at certain parts and it's a give and take process.." and so on and so forth.

Flew right over his head.
Keep in mind that once the PA agreed to a 50/50, their entire premise was that we'll do 50/50, but we want it phased in. The Make Whole is the mechanism the owners choose to phase in that 50/50. Mac's question brings to light that the Make Whole will work the same way the players actually want the split to work but it's not in their favour to admit that right now. Maybe his answer wasn't because he didn't really understand how it works (frankly, it's not a hard to understand or figure out the math), maybe he thought answering the question would reveal too much so he feigned ignorance on the technicality of the HRR issue.

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12-10-2012, 11:40 AM
  #511
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Originally Posted by FanSince2012 View Post
I can't believe the gaul he had to call the owners uniformed.

After hearing Campoli's 'eloquent' description of the ongoings and now Westgarth's, there's just no words that I have to describe the level of incompetency that these guys display.

Sad, sad, sad.
Yup... Westgarth is the guy that said the new four owners that the NHL brought in had no idea what was going on in the negotiations up until that point.

Sounds like the players in the room don't either.

It's getting to the point where guys like Campoli and Hainsey are putting their careers in danger with their mindless following of Fehr. There was an article that rumors were going around that Hainsey is not going to get another NHL contract after this. While that is probably not true... the idea is out there. The players are hurting themselves more than they know.

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:40 AM
  #512
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Keep in mind that once the PA agreed to a 50/50, their entire premise was that we'll do 50/50, but we want it phased in. The Make Whole is the mechanism the owners choose to phase in that 50/50. Mac's question brings to light that the Make Whole will work the same way the players actually want the split to work but it's not in their favour to admit that right now. Maybe his answer wasn't because he didn't really understand how it works (frankly, it's not a hard to understand or figure out the math), maybe he thought answering the question would reveal too much so he feigned ignorance on the technicality of the HRR issue.
But what's the point of 50-50 finally showing up in year 4 when the players want an 8 year CBA with an opt-out (which you know they will take) in year 6 so they can start this fight all over again.

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12-10-2012, 11:42 AM
  #513
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Ok, point me to an article that says over 375 of 750 players want to accept the current deal.
Read around, you'll read enough that players didn't think it would take this long, or complaining it is taking this long. Not pointing fingers just in general at both parties.

You'd have to read through many threads and look up many links, have fun.

It's not on me to do it for you.

I'm reading the stuff every day.

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Old
12-10-2012, 11:44 AM
  #514
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Question for an NHL player: "What don't you like about the NHL's proposal?"

Answer: "Well, Fehr says it's no good."

Question: "How does Fehr gague the NHL proposals?"

Answer: "Well, he asks us what we think of them."

And round and round they go.

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12-10-2012, 11:44 AM
  #515
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Read around, you'll read enough that players didn't think it would take this long, or complaining it is taking this long. Not pointing fingers just in general at both parties.

You'd have to read through many threads and look up many links, have fun.

It's not on me to do it for you.

I'm reading the stuff every day.
LOL! I've followed this thread every day. There is no such article.
No wonder you can't find one.

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12-10-2012, 11:45 AM
  #516
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sids feelings are hurt? or he just doesnt like the fact that it didnt work out and he wasnt the hero?
There are a variety of possible reasons that he won't be involved.

I doubt its either of those 2 reasons.

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12-10-2012, 11:45 AM
  #517
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He's a fine negotiator.

While he was submitting the same proposal 5 times, the owners were moving towards the PA on almost every issue.
Yet he was gift wrapped two get outs and passed on them numerous times that cost the players more money than they'll ever gain back.


I say good effort, but the end result is still an "F."


Best deal is the one where the players gain the most and lose the least.

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12-10-2012, 11:47 AM
  #518
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On the Vancouver station driving in, Aaron Ward said that the owners had told others that they were impressed with Wesgarth in the meetings and his grasp on the issues. I suspect that he has been told not to discuss specifics.
Sure, but for a bunch of guys who were purportedly so woefully informed, they sure put a pretty good deal on the table. In two days. What was the PA doing for the last couple of months then?

I'm sure Westgarth is smart, but that doesn't change the fact that calling owners misinformed in the media wasn't a smart move. If you're right and he was ducking the issue there (or just not good on radio/TV under real time pressure), then it would have been a much better move to not include that little dig against the moderate owners when he was interviewed for the article, no?

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12-10-2012, 11:50 AM
  #519
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Originally Posted by isles31 View Post
sids feelings are hurt? or he just doesnt like the fact that it didnt work out and he wasnt the hero?
Haha god, people will bend over backwards to find any little thing to bash Crosby for. He's put more time into the negotiations than 95% of the players in the league, for crying out loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
It's getting to the point where guys like Campoli and Hainsey are putting their careers in danger with their mindless following of Fehr. There was an article that rumors were going around that Hainsey is not going to get another NHL contract after this. While that is probably not true... the idea is out there. The players are hurting themselves more than they know.
If I can make something of a defense for the Campolis, Hainseys and Darches of the negotiations, I'm sure many of them believe they're serving a cause that extends beyond their NHL careers, and see it as a chance to do something for the future players of the league, a la Lindsay and Harvey.

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12-10-2012, 11:51 AM
  #520
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Sure, but for a bunch of guys who were purportedly so woefully informed, they sure put a pretty good deal on the table. In two days. What was the PA doing for the last couple of months then?

I'm sure Westgarth is smart, but that doesn't change the fact that calling owners misinformed in the media wasn't a smart move. If you're right and he was ducking the issue there (or just not good on radio/TV under real time pressure), then it would have been a much better move to not include that little dig against the moderate owners when he was interviewed for the article, no?
Agreed. Probably the best move would be to keep the players off the radio just like Bettman does with the owners. I doubt most of the owners are that well informed either although they do have more experience in business. Many have staff who deal with the details of their many businesses. Wesgarth wa probably right when he said the 4 owners were not informed.

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12-10-2012, 11:51 AM
  #521
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He's a fine negotiator.

While he was submitting the same proposal 5 times, the owners were moving towards the PA on almost every issue.
I call B.S.

Look on these boards in August. What would the CBA deal include?

-50/50
-grandfathering of contracts
-backdiving contract elimination through variance or contract term limit

Besides 10 year CBA (which some people did see coming) and the harder 5-year contract limits (which don't represent 'moving towards the PA' at all), Fehr has failed to negotiate anything that the majority of posters on this board saw coming. IN SUMMER. That's fail.

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12-10-2012, 11:52 AM
  #522
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Haha god, people will bend over backwards to find any little thing to bash Crosby for. He's put more time into the negotiations than 95% of the players in the league, for crying out loud.



If I can make something of a defense for the Campolis, Hainseys and Darches of the negotiations, I'm sure many of them believe they're serving a cause that extends beyond their NHL careers, and see it as a chance to do something for the future players of the league, a la Lindsay and Harvey.
That's the only logical conclusion I can come to as well. These guys, including Malhotra, and several others on the negotiating commitee would have done best by accepting the first offer.

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12-10-2012, 11:54 AM
  #523
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Yeah not very encouraging when an ivy league grad player and someone who is in almost every negotiating session is asked a general question about possibly the most important aspect of the whole CBA battle and he freezes and gives a babbling disconnected answer.
At least he has the good sense of not trying to tackle it and admit this is stuff he doesn't get.
I appreciate his honesty, but not the spin.
The fact that he doesn't understand is indicative of the state of the PA: not a whole lot of information about the actual issues gets passed down to the players, only want the bosses want them to hear.

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12-10-2012, 11:55 AM
  #524
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Agreed. Probably the best move would be to keep the players off the radio just like Bettman does with the owners. I doubt most of the owners are that well informed either although they do have more experience in business. Many have staff who deal with the details of their many businesses. Wesgarth wa probably right when he said the 4 owners were not informed.
But yet informed enough to kick their ***** in the negotiation. So they were dealing with a side that didn't know the fine details, AND the players were shuttling back and forth to consult with Fehr...and the owners still managed to get a package deal on the table that included several PA-unfriendly aspects?

Hell, give me the 'uninformed' negotiator any day in that scenario.

Besides, Fehr has been widely rumoured to not understand basic ideas in player contracting throughout this. He's no better.

Finally, who cares? This is yet another example of 'he said, she said'. All this crap does is distract from the fact that there's no way we should be in the position we are now, at this time, and the fact that the players are getting boned out of $$$ by both sides.

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12-10-2012, 11:56 AM
  #525
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Bruce Garrioch ‏@SunGarrioch
Nick Kypreos says on @SNHockeyCentral at noon he believes a Disclaimer of Interest is coming.

https://twitter.com/SunGarrioch/stat...96100182204416

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