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Roster Talk '13 — Russia

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Old
12-09-2012, 04:24 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The Russian kids and their agents want to sign one-way contracts, and NHL clubs often aren't willing to do that.
That's because they can't. Per league rules, entry-level contracts must be 2-way.

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12-10-2012, 11:51 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Even Yakupov and Grigerenko were questioned over and over again about playing in the KHL after years in the CHL. Playing in the CHL does not necessarily diminish the perception of the Russian factor. Teams look at a player like Radulov, fairly or not, and factor that in. Tarasenko and Kuznetsov never should have dropped so low, yet neither has played an NHL game, so there is a reason teams may be skeptical. And there are several second line talents at the time of the draft who develop even better that get drafted in late rounds or not at all. This has nothing to do with talent.
I think you are very correct about the Russian factor.

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12-10-2012, 11:51 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Systemfel View Post
That's because they can't. Per league rules, entry-level contracts must be 2-way.
Thanks. My mistake.

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12-10-2012, 01:26 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You make good points! I think the thing that Russian kids fear most is getting stuck in the AHL. The AHL plays more of a mucking and grinding style than the NHL itself, and that is not consistent with the skills that most Russian kids have developed. Somebody posted an article showing that Nugent-Hopkins makes about $65,000 in the AHL. Russian kids know that they can make 10 times that much or more, more or less tax-free, in the KHL. The Russian kids and their agents want to sign one-way contracts, and NHL clubs often aren't willing to do that. Also, the style of play in the KHL is the same as the kids grew up on.
The thing is, as a GM I would want my high end Russian prospects to play in the KHL over the AHL. There are a number of reasons, its a better league for players with the typical "russian skillset" to play in and develop, they're also closer to family and friends, not as much of a culture shock. If they will be an offensive force Id rather they play the KHL game.

The problem is the KHL and NHL haven't been able to come up with a good transfer agreement. Team's fear that if they send a prospect like Kuznetsov over to the KHL they may never return. They also know that they can't monitor the development to the same degree... ie ensure they are getting adequate playing time etc. because the KHL is not a "minor league" and the focus is on winning.

If the two leagues could come up with a solid transfer agreement process I think youd see alot more young talent in the KHL, it would probably help the development of both leagues.

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12-10-2012, 02:56 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
The thing is, as a GM I would want my high end Russian prospects to play in the KHL over the AHL. There are a number of reasons, its a better league for players with the typical "russian skillset" to play in and develop, they're also closer to family and friends, not as much of a culture shock. If they will be an offensive force Id rather they play the KHL game.

The problem is the KHL and NHL haven't been able to come up with a good transfer agreement. Team's fear that if they send a prospect like Kuznetsov over to the KHL they may never return. They also know that they can't monitor the development to the same degree... ie ensure they are getting adequate playing time etc. because the KHL is not a "minor league" and the focus is on winning.

If the two leagues could come up with a solid transfer agreement process I think youd see alot more young talent in the KHL, it would probably help the development of both leagues.
Meh, this is an old story now. KHL should continue to focus on making itself a better league so the best players chpose to stay at home, rather than risk their careers. If and when NHL respects it as an equal, or a near equal, then it would make sense to have deal. Otherwise, why even go to NHL at all if a very good or even better league (with time) can be played at home?

NHL also has this rule (which is dumb in the case of pro European players) where the rookies must sign cheap, 2-way contracts. It makes sense for juniors, but they are shooting themselves in the leg when it comes to being lucrative to other professionals.

It's not all about making it to the NHL, and there is no ethical reason why KHL can't compete for players on equal basis as NHL.

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12-10-2012, 03:07 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Meh, this is an old story now. KHL should continue to focus on making itself a better league so the best players chpose to stay at home, rather than risk their careers. If and when NHL respects it as an equal, or a near equal, then it would make sense to have deal. Otherwise, why even go to NHL at all if a very good or even better league (with time) can be played at home?

NHL also has this rule (which is dumb in the case of pro European players) where the rookies must sign cheap, 2-way contracts. It makes sense for juniors, but they are shooting themselves in the leg when it comes to being lucrative to other professionals.

It's not all about making it to the NHL, and there is no ethical reason why KHL can't compete for players on equal basis as NHL.
Completely disagree. As long as the NHL has the best players from all over the world, it will be the best league to play in.

The NHL has the best NA, European and Russian players in it right now. The NA part will never change, and as long as that changes I don't see the Euro part ever changing. The KHL could hope to one day be able to attract the best Russian players in the world, but as long as players like Ovechkin, Malkin, Grigorenko and Yakupov are stars in the NHL, this is not going to change.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I can't imaging many young kids growing up saying "I want to be like Radulov". I see far more growing up saying "I want to be like Datsyuk/Ovechkin/Malkin/Yakupov"

Sure they can make more money in the first few years in the KHL rather than playing minor pro in NA, but long term they will never be able to compete. In NA you're playing in front of 15,000+ fans every night, you're treated like a God, the endorsement deals are as good or better than they could be in the KHL, you're exposure to the world is greater. This gives you a better opportunity to develop a career after hockey, whether its investing, or a second career as a media member or a player agent like Larionov.

Given its current state, I don't see the KHL ever being more than a league for 2nd tier europeans who have the opportunity to make more money as first liners/stars in the KHL than secondary pieces in the best league in the world.

Also I apologize as this is getting slightly off-topic.

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12-10-2012, 03:56 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by topched View Post

Completely disagree. As long as the NHL has the best players from all over the world, it will be the best league to play in.

The NHL has the best NA, European and Russian players in it right now. The NA part will never change, and as long as that changes I don't see the Euro part ever changing. The KHL could hope to one day be able to attract the best Russian players in the world, but as long as players like Ovechkin, Malkin, Grigorenko and Yakupov are stars in the NHL, this is not going to change.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I can't imaging many young kids growing up saying "I want to be like Radulov". I see far more growing up saying "I want to be like Datsyuk/Ovechkin/Malkin/Yakupov"

Sure they can make more money in the first few years in the KHL rather than playing minor pro in NA, but long term they will never be able to compete. In NA you're playing in front of 15,000+ fans every night, you're treated like a God, the endorsement deals are as good or better than they could be in the KHL, you're exposure to the world is greater. This gives you a better opportunity to develop a career after hockey, whether its investing, or a second career as a media member or a player agent like Larionov.

Given its current state, I don't see the KHL ever being more than a league for 2nd tier europeans who have the opportunity to make more money as first liners/stars in the KHL than secondary pieces in the best league in the world.

Also I apologize as this is getting slightly off-topic.
ok, well your opinion is very much a western way of looking at it. It's a narrow perspective, since all you see is 1 way. Kids do grow up watching Radulov and others and wishing they could also play on their teams. Maybe there aren't a lot of them now, but A LOT more than just 5 years ago, before KHL and so on. See the pattern?

15,000 NA fans is good for some, but others may want to be a part of creating 15,000+ fans at home. But you have to understand, people from across the ocean don't look at it the way you do because they have a different view from where they sit. Europe is home, let's make home better or best, not just assume that something is "impossible" because why? Exactly- there is no valid reason why.

So it all comes back to juniors, and Russia has made huge strides by doing exactly that. Looking at the depth of this Junior team, and development infrastructure created for long term, is created not to rely on NHL and the rules that they create.

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12-10-2012, 03:59 PM
  #108
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The NHL will have the best players in the world as long as the American economy is the best in the world, and that will still most likely be a long time.

Most top Russian players will go where the money, stability and prestige is. And that is the NHL.

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12-10-2012, 04:01 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
So it all comes back to juniors, and Russia has made huge strides by doing exactly that. Looking at the depth of this Junior team, and development infrastructure created for long term, is created not to rely on NHL and the rules that they create.
I'm very glad that the state of Russian hockey is improving. Even if they can't keep the best pros at home, they could at least develop their youngsters at home. And this will help the national team.

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12-10-2012, 04:12 PM
  #110
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As long as the KHL doesn't have a restrictive entry level contract system, they will be able to keep more and more home grown talent. Given the opportunity to make better money right away is a huge incentive. Also, being able to develop in your home nation is usually the best option for most players. The number of Russians in the NHL has gone down significantly percentage wise. I think the truly upper echelon will continue to go to the NHL, but a few may not and the late blooming elites may never transition over either.

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12-10-2012, 06:14 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Meh, this is an old story now. KHL should continue to focus on making itself a better league so the best players chpose to stay at home, rather than risk their careers. If and when NHL respects it as an equal, or a near equal, then it would make sense to have deal. Otherwise, why even go to NHL at all if a very good or even better league (with time) can be played at home?

NHL also has this rule (which is dumb in the case of pro European players) where the rookies must sign cheap, 2-way contracts. It makes sense for juniors, but they are shooting themselves in the leg when it comes to being lucrative to other professionals.

It's not all about making it to the NHL, and there is no ethical reason why KHL can't compete for players on equal basis as NHL.
My sentiments exactly. I agree 100%.

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12-10-2012, 06:20 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by topched View Post

Completely disagree. As long as the NHL has the best players from all over the world, it will be the best league to play in.

The NHL has the best NA, European and Russian players in it right now. The NA part will never change, and as long as that changes I don't see the Euro part ever changing. The KHL could hope to one day be able to attract the best Russian players in the world, but as long as players like Ovechkin, Malkin, Grigorenko and Yakupov are stars in the NHL, this is not going to change.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I can't imaging many young kids growing up saying "I want to be like Radulov". I see far more growing up saying "I want to be like Datsyuk/Ovechkin/Malkin/Yakupov"

Sure they can make more money in the first few years in the KHL rather than playing minor pro in NA, but long term they will never be able to compete. In NA you're playing in front of 15,000+ fans every night, you're treated like a God, the endorsement deals are as good or better than they could be in the KHL, you're exposure to the world is greater. This gives you a better opportunity to develop a career after hockey, whether its investing, or a second career as a media member or a player agent like Larionov.

Given its current state, I don't see the KHL ever being more than a league for 2nd tier europeans who have the opportunity to make more money as first liners/stars in the KHL than secondary pieces in the best league in the world.

Also I apologize as this is getting slightly off-topic.
The KHL will, IMO, start to bring the Russian stars back from the NHL, and maybe the Czechs, Slovaks, and even Swedes and Finns, if expansion heads in that direction. Europe is suddenly going hockey mad, and their preference would be to focus on something at home or at least on their own continent. The European stars who make the NHL the league it is went there because that was the only place to make real money and play top quality hockey. The KHL hopes to offer that opportunity at home, and they've already made huge strides!

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12-10-2012, 06:22 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Nash View Post
As long as the KHL doesn't have a restrictive entry level contract system, they will be able to keep more and more home grown talent. Given the opportunity to make better money right away is a huge incentive. Also, being able to develop in your home nation is usually the best option for most players. The number of Russians in the NHL has gone down significantly percentage wise. I think the truly upper echelon will continue to go to the NHL, but a few may not and the late blooming elites may never transition over either.
You're right. The fact is, Russian juniors are playing as well or better than ever lately, and yet the numbers ending up in the NHL continue to plummet fast. Russian fans hope that those high level prospects decide to stay home.

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12-10-2012, 11:08 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topched View Post
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I can't imaging many young kids growing up saying "I want to be like Radulov". I see far more growing up saying "I want to be like Datsyuk/Ovechkin/Malkin/Yakupov".
You can easily be wrong.
I have no exact numbers of course, but Radulov is a first class player and has a special charisma of his own. He is very popular in Russia (and not only in Russia).

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12-10-2012, 11:38 PM
  #115
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You can easily be wrong.
I have no exact numbers of course, but Radulov is a first class player and has a special charisma of his own. He is very popular in Russia (and not only in Russia).
Those in the NHL and Nashville in particular might view him a certain negative way, and justly so. I don't see how that would effect how he is thought of back home where he decided to leave the NHL to come home and play in his country's league. He always plays hard for his country and while North Americans may find him brash and cocky, Russians likely see him as a confident, proud countryman. From their perspective, there is no reason to look down on him at all. If anything, I'd imagine he gets more press throughout the year in the KHL than the guys in the NHL.

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12-11-2012, 03:25 PM
  #116
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This is an interesting discussion.

It's notable how many NHLers aren't putting up wild numbers in leagues in Switzerland, Russia, Czech etc.
The big ice must play a role. It would lend itself to a COMPLETELY different skill set. So, I can see the appeal and argument for KHL over NHL.

That being said, you would have to be delusional to say the NHL doesn't have the best players in the world. Anyone with ANY objectivity can easily see that it's by and large the most talented league in the world.

As I've said before, I wish NA would adopt international ice, but I know that'll never happen.

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12-11-2012, 06:30 PM
  #117
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For fun, if you guys had to rate the top producers on this team during, how do you see it?

I think the most to least productive:
Yakupov
Grigorenko
Sigarev
Kucherov
Slepyshev
Khokhlochev
Shalunov
Kosov
... the rest

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12-11-2012, 11:01 PM
  #118
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Any chance Zadorov cracks this lineup?

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12-11-2012, 11:12 PM
  #119
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Unless he tanks it in training camp, he has an excellent chance....especially with Naumenkov out.

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12-11-2012, 11:37 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by StrappingYoungChad View Post
This is an interesting discussion.

It's notable how many NHLers aren't putting up wild numbers in leagues in Switzerland, Russia, Czech etc.
The big ice must play a role. It would lend itself to a COMPLETELY different skill set. So, I can see the appeal and argument for KHL over NHL.

That being said, you would have to be delusional to say the NHL doesn't have the best players in the world. Anyone with ANY objectivity can easily see that it's by and large the most talented league in the world.

As I've said before, I wish NA would adopt international ice, but I know that'll never happen.
Would that potentially solve any of the NHL's problems such as concussions/low scoring/boring defensive hockey systems at all? I've never considered that but it intrigues me. Its cool how Belleville plays on Int'l sized ice.

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12-12-2012, 02:28 AM
  #121
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Would that potentially solve any of the NHL's problems such as concussions/low scoring/boring defensive hockey systems at all? I've never considered that but it intrigues me. Its cool how Belleville plays on Int'l sized ice.
It would probably help with concussions but there would be even less scoring and even more boring defensive hockey systems.

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12-12-2012, 11:29 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
It would probably help with concussions but there would be even less scoring and even more boring defensive hockey systems.
The big ice gives you the chance to really wind up, skate, make combinational plays stickhandle, run an organized offense, and all the other things that are infeasible when you are playing in what Ken Dryden called "a phone booth."

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12-12-2012, 11:35 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
For fun, if you guys had to rate the top producers on this team during, how do you see it?

I think the most to least productive:
Yakupov
Grigorenko
Sigarev
Kucherov
Slepyshev
Khokhlochev
Shalunov
Kosov
... the rest
I think Yakupov, Grigorenko, Sigarev, Kosov and Khohlachev will be the offensive engine of the team I hope Shalunov, Kucherov, Nichushkin and No. 14 in the SSS(can't think of his name) also make big contributions.

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12-12-2012, 12:41 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The big ice gives you the chance to really wind up, skate, make combinational plays stickhandle, run an organized offense, and all the other things that are infeasible when you are playing in what Ken Dryden called "a phone booth."
You do realize the size of an offensive zone is practically the same on NHL sized and "the big ice", right?

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12-12-2012, 01:31 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Snippit View Post
Any chance Zadorov cracks this lineup?
I think they will lean on him heavily. He is reliable and has really turned it on recently with London. He has recently just been given a huge increase in TOI before he left to WJC camp.

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