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Old
12-10-2012, 02:46 PM
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
Everyone? I doubt that. Doesn't look good for the Leafs. Kulemin is a big upgrade on Bozak, and you're including a non-protected 1st. Good luck with that.
Good luck getting a goalie then. I wouldn't be happy with that trade either though. Not enough value for Luongo.

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12-10-2012, 02:46 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Marian Hossa is Luongo's age, and has Luongo's contract. I would certainly trade Luongo for him straight up. I would also trade Kassian, Jensen, Schroeder and a 1 for Hossa.
Would you include a possible top 5 pick? That's what the Leafs could end up being.

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12-10-2012, 02:50 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Kulemin is more on par with Raymond. I also don't see what makes you think Kulemin would fit with Kesler. Another left handed shot on that like probably isn't good (Booth being the other).

Kadri just doesn't fit at all. If Grabner was in AV's doghouse, Kadri will be too.
If he doesn't work, we move Higgins up and Kulemin plays with Hansen. As for Kadri, he is young and our development of one-dimensional players into becoming defensively responsible is solid. We've done it with Kesler, Burrows, Raymond and the Sedins. No reason Kadri cannot learn. Besides, he is a playmaking winger, which is rare.

Would I prefer Lupul? Of course, but if that is not an option this is far from a bad trade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Marian Hossa is Luongo's age, and has Luongo's contract. I would certainly trade Luongo for him straight up. I would also trade Kassian, Jensen, Schroeder and a 1 for Hossa.
You would? No way I'd package Kassian and Jensen even if it did bring Hossa. We would destroy our depth.

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12-10-2012, 02:50 PM
  #604
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C'mon liferleafer...you can't lower your posting standards by using 'ridiculous' or 'albatross' now can you?

You are smarter than that.
Sorry guys,wasn't meant to come off like that. I meant the Leafs are rich enough to take on 6.7 in salary long term. Apologies.

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12-10-2012, 02:51 PM
  #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
Everyone? I doubt that. Doesn't look good for the Leafs. Kulemin is a big upgrade on Bozak, and you're including a non-protected 1st. Good luck with that.
Defer it to 2014 or protect it. I could care less. Just meant I liked the overall theme.

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12-10-2012, 02:57 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
If he doesn't work, we move Higgins up and Kulemin plays with Hansen. As for Kadri, he is young and our development of one-dimensional players into becoming defensively responsible is solid. We've done it with Kesler, Burrows, Raymond and the Sedins. No reason Kadri cannot learn. Besides, he is a playmaking winger, which is rare.

Would I prefer Lupul? Of course, but if that is not an option this is far from a bad trade.




You would? No way I'd package Kassian and Jensen even if it did bring Hossa. We would destroy our depth.
So where does Raymond play? Bringing in Kulemin means Raymond falls to the 4th line/press box despite the fact Kulemin is not an upgrade. You're replacing a roster player with someone who is essentially the same, at the expense of Roberto Luongo. Poor asset management.

Kadri is not waiver exempt next season IIRC. He will have to develop a defensive game up here and I don't see that as being a smart move for a team looking to contend for the Cup. It's just a bad fit.

And yes, if that were the cost for Hossa (it's actually a lot more than I've asked from Leaf fans for Luongo) I would be willing to pay it. Hossa is one of the top wingers in the West, and we don't know how our prospects will turn out. More comfortable with the sure thing.

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12-10-2012, 03:00 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
What holes do they fill?

How would Kadri be our top prospect? I wouldn't even have him in our top 5 as he would be behind Jensen, Kassian, Tanev, Lack and Schroeder.
We lack a 3C.
We lack top-6 forwards with size.

Kadri is nearly a ppg in the AHL... how is he worse than Schroeder?

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12-10-2012, 03:01 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Marian Hossa is Luongo's age, and has Luongo's contract. I would certainly trade Luongo for him straight up. I would also trade Kassian, Jensen, Schroeder and a 1 for Hossa.
Sorry but that would be a ridiculous trade, especially after Hossa's concussion. As a Canucks fan I would be disgusted to see that.

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12-10-2012, 03:04 PM
  #609
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Just to list some of the frameworks that seemed to make some headway

Lupul
2nd/Connolly/Blacker
Conditional 1st 2014 (If Lupul walks)

Luongo
Raymond
Conditional pick (if Raymond walks)
-----

Kulemin
Kadri
1st (Either conditional on playoffs or 2014)

Luongo
------

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker/2nd

Luongo
------

Connolly/Bozak
Frattin
Finn

Luongo

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12-10-2012, 03:04 PM
  #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
We lack a 3C.
We lack top-6 forwards with size.

Kadri is nearly a ppg in the AHL... how is he worse than Schroeder?
We have a 3C in Malhotra or Lapierre or Schroeder. It isn't like Bozak is an elite 3C like Bolland. He put up significantly lower offensive numbers than his two linemates, while posting bad defensive numbers. How does he help us?

How exactly is Kulemin a top 6 forward? He's not an upgrade on Higgins/Hansen/Raymond.

Schroeder is miles ahead of Kadri defensively. Schroeder leads a bad offensive team in goals, and based on what I've seen from watching him play he would have more assists if he had linemates who could bury the puck on even half the setups he makes.

It's a bad trade, bad value, and just because you say a player could play X role doesn't mean it's true. Their performance refutes your claims.

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12-10-2012, 03:09 PM
  #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So where does Raymond play? Bringing in Kulemin means Raymond falls to the 4th line/press box despite the fact Kulemin is not an upgrade. You're replacing a roster player with someone who is essentially the same, at the expense of Roberto Luongo. Poor asset management.

Kadri is not waiver exempt next season IIRC. He will have to develop a defensive game up here and I don't see that as being a smart move for a team looking to contend for the Cup. It's just a bad fit.

And yes, if that were the cost for Hossa (it's actually a lot more than I've asked from Leaf fans for Luongo) I would be willing to pay it. Hossa is one of the top wingers in the West, and we don't know how our prospects will turn out. More comfortable with the sure thing.
Trade Raymond, and you are mistaken to claim Kulemin is not a better player. He had a down year to be certain but is stronger offensively and significantly better with the puck than Raymond. Defense is more or less a wash.

Kadri is producing at a near PPG average in the AHL and shown development stride when called up. He is more ready to make the jump than Schroeder. And while he might struggle defensively, his playmaking capability make him worth the gamble.

To each their own, and I am not denying how talented Hossa is but to completely deplete our prospect pool like that makes it absolutely vital we win the cup before the Sedin era closes. Afterward, we get to embark on an Edmonton style rebuild, regardless of what happens. I would rather not spend most of the 2020 years watching my team lose every season.

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12-10-2012, 03:09 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
If he doesn't work, we move Higgins up and Kulemin plays with Hansen. As for Kadri, he is young and our development of one-dimensional players into becoming defensively responsible is solid. We've done it with Kesler, Burrows, Raymond and the Sedins. No reason Kadri cannot learn. Besides, he is a playmaking winger, which is rare.

Would I prefer Lupul? Of course, but if that is not an option this is far from a bad trade.




You would? No way I'd package Kassian and Jensen even if it did bring Hossa. We would destroy our depth.
Kesler has been a responsible defensive player for as long as I've seen him, dating back to his world junior days.

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12-10-2012, 03:10 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Kulemin is similar to Higgins, thus we can either run the AMEX line or see if Kulemin and Kesler jell. While Kadri is a young playmaker that would give better options for Hansen and Kulemin/Higgins. A first is a first.

It isn't a "awesome trade" but a reasonable one I'd say everyone could live with.
I don't speak for everyone, but I personally don't like it.

Kulemin is very valuable to the Leafs. His 30 goal ~60 point season the year before last combined with his size and defensive play makes him more valuable to the team than he could get in trade IMO.

From a Leafs perspective, Kulemin + Kadri + Unprotected 1st is higher value than a lot of what has been recently discussed.

My 2 cents.

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12-10-2012, 03:12 PM
  #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Trade Raymond, and you are mistaken to claim Kulemin is not a better player. He had a down year to be certain but is stronger offensively and significantly better with the puck than Raymond. Defense is more or less a wash.

Kadri is producing at a near PPG average in the AHL and shown development stride when called up. He is more ready to make the jump than Schroeder. And while he might struggle defensively, his playmaking capability make him worth the gamble.

To each their own, and I am not denying how talented Hossa is but to completely deplete our prospect pool like that makes it absolutely vital we win the cup before the Sedin era closes. Afterward, we get to embark on an Edmonton style rebuild, regardless of what happens. I would rather not spend most of the twenty-teens watching my team lose every season.
I disagree that Kulemin is better offensively, and he's done nothing to suggest that he is better. Both have had big years that I don't think either will repeat. Raymond coming off a broken back, playing fewer games, put up more goals than Kulemin last year. It's absurd to say he's better. So you think it's a good idea to dilute our talent by trading Luongo for another Raymond, just to subsequently dump Raymond? Poor asset management.

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12-10-2012, 03:13 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Trade Raymond, and you are mistaken to claim Kulemin is not a better player. He had a down year to be certain but is stronger offensively and significantly better with the puck than Raymond. Defense is more or less a wash.

Kadri is producing at a near PPG average in the AHL and shown development stride when called up. He is more ready to make the jump than Schroeder. And while he might struggle defensively, his playmaking capability make him worth the gamble.

To each their own, and I am not denying how talented Hossa is but to completely deplete our prospect pool like that makes it absolutely vital we win the cup before the Sedin era closes. Afterward, we get to embark on an Edmonton style rebuild, regardless of what happens. I would rather not spend most of the 2020 years watching my team lose every season.
He scored SEVEN goals last year.

Raymond scored 10 in 55 games.

Its a wash at best.

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12-10-2012, 03:16 PM
  #616
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He scored SEVEN goals last year.

Raymond scored 10 in 55 games.

Its a wash at best.
And Toronto absolutely sucked. Higgins scored just eight back in 2010. Sure, we bought low on him from Florida but do you really see Kulemin not rebounding? Even prior to his back injury, Raymond struggled. Like I said, I'd prefer better but that package isn't bad per se. Feel free to disagree.

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12-10-2012, 03:18 PM
  #617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
And Toronto absolutely sucked. Higgins scored just eight back in 2010. Sure, we bought low on him from Florida but do you really see Kulemin not rebounding? Even prior to his back injury, Raymond struggled. Like I said, I'd prefer better but that package isn't bad per se. Feel free to disagree.
We spent a 3rd round pick to get Higgins, not Roberto Luongo

Based on Kulemin's unsustainably high shooting percentage in his 30 goal season, no I can't see him rebounding. In fact, last offseason I called his regression (predicted 15 goals though, not 7).

Yes the package is horrible. Raymond and Kulemin are about the same. I'd flip em in a trade for each other, but not Kulemin for Luongo. That's way way way off in terms of value.

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12-10-2012, 03:20 PM
  #618
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We have a 3C in Malhotra or Lapierre or Schroeder. It isn't like Bozak is an elite 3C like Bolland. He put up significantly lower offensive numbers than his two linemates, while posting bad defensive numbers. How does he help us?

How exactly is Kulemin a top 6 forward? He's not an upgrade on Higgins/Hansen/Raymond.

Schroeder is miles ahead of Kadri defensively. Schroeder leads a bad offensive team in goals, and based on what I've seen from watching him play he would have more assists if he had linemates who could bury the puck on even half the setups he makes.

It's a bad trade, bad value, and just because you say a player could play X role doesn't mean it's true. Their performance refutes your claims.
first of all Manny is no longer a #3. he's a great guy in the lockerroom, but on ice he isnt the same player he was, dispite his ability to still win faceoffs.

also, Raymond is not an answer at all to anything. which is also why the canucks wouldnt value Kulemin either.

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12-10-2012, 03:23 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
first of all Manny is no longer a #3. he's a great guy in the lockerroom, but on ice he isnt the same player he was, dispite his ability to still win faceoffs.

also, Raymond is not an answer at all to anything. which is also why the canucks wouldnt value Kulemin either.
I can agree with this, except I do think Raymond and Kulemin make good 3rd liners. It's just we are too soft on the 3rd line with Raymond on there given our personnel. I don't like the idea of trading Luongo for a pair of third liners.

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12-10-2012, 03:35 PM
  #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Just to list some of the frameworks that seemed to make some headway

Lupul
2nd/Connolly/Blacker
Conditional 1st 2014 (If Lupul walks)

Luongo
Raymond
Conditional pick (if Raymond walks)
-----

Kulemin
Kadri
1st (Either conditional on playoffs or 2014)

Luongo
------

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker/2nd

Luongo
------

Connolly/Bozak
Frattin
Finn

Luongo
I'd do the first two, although I might tweak the Lupul deal a bit, to just Luongo + Raymond for Lupul + 2013 1st conditional on playoffs or it becomes a 2nd.

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12-10-2012, 03:44 PM
  #621
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I can agree with this, except I do think Raymond and Kulemin make good 3rd liners. It's just we are too soft on the 3rd line with Raymond on there given our personnel. I don't like the idea of trading Luongo for a pair of third liners.
those 2 are decent 3rd liners yes, but higgins/hansen are better IMO

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12-10-2012, 03:45 PM
  #622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Just to list some of the frameworks that seemed to make some headway

Lupul
2nd/Connolly/Blacker
Conditional 1st 2014 (If Lupul walks)

Luongo
Raymond
Conditional pick (if Raymond walks)
-----

Kulemin
Kadri
1st (Either conditional on playoffs or 2014)

Luongo
------

Bozak
Kadri
Colborne
Blacker/2nd

Luongo
------

Connolly/Bozak
Frattin
Finn

Luongo
From this Leaf fan's perspective:

Options 1 and 2 are no gos.

Options 3 and 4 are very good discussion points. #3 I think needs more salary transferred (barring an amnesty buyout or a waiver wire). #4 I would do. It would hurt to lose Frattin and Finn but worth it for Luongo.

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12-10-2012, 03:52 PM
  #623
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Everyone? I doubt that. Doesn't look good for the Leafs. Kulemin is a big upgrade on Bozak, and you're including a non-protected 1st. Good luck with that.
If Kulemin is a huge upgrade on Bozak, then theres no point in discussing Boz at all, as he'd have no value to the Canucks. These 2 teams have vastly different standards. As Y2K is trying to point out, Kul isnt much better than Raymond, and Raymond barely has a place on the team as is.

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12-10-2012, 03:54 PM
  #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
From this Leaf fan's perspective:

Options 1 and 2 are no gos.

Options 3 and 4 are very good discussion points. #3 I think needs more salary transferred (barring an amnesty buyout or a waiver wire). #4 I would do. It would hurt to lose Frattin and Finn but worth it for Luongo.
Then really we are too far a part to discuss Luongo. Maybe that package gets you Jonas Hiller if he's available, but not Luongo.

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12-10-2012, 03:58 PM
  #625
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Then really we are too far a part to discuss Luongo. Maybe that package gets you Jonas Hiller if he's available, but not Luongo.
Okay.

Forgive me if I'm jumping in again late, but then why are they listed as points of discussion?

P.S. IS Jonas Hiller available? Didn't think he would be. If so, let the discussions commence!


...Gardiner for Schneider?

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