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NHL Lockout XXV: New car caviar four star daydream, think I'll buy me a hockey team

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Old
12-10-2012, 03:28 PM
  #701
Deebo
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Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
A 28 game season is a joke and a slap in the face to fans and season ticket holders.
Speak for yourself, I'd rather see 28 games + playoffs than nothing at all.

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12-10-2012, 03:28 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
The problem with an early drop dead date is its more likely that the players will think you are bluffing and will call what they think is a bluff. You then have to choose either to actually cancel the season even though there would be a chance of salvaging some of it, something that would lose off fans to no end and risk future revenues even more, of if you don't cancel it, you lose some bargaining position.
In 5 - 7 years, move the drop dead date back to Nov 15.

cuz you know the NHLPA will force another lockout. (and the usual suspects will all blame Bettman - again)

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12-10-2012, 03:29 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Phil Parent View Post
Wondering if introducing franchise player tags, one per team, could help reach an agreement?

A player who has a franchise player tag can sign ANY deal he pleases. Any lenght, any money. It doesn't count on the cap. BUT, teams aren't obligated to put the tag on anyone.

A provision could be made that the team and player can mutually agree on removing the tag. If this happens, the player's contract defaults to the maximum values described in the CBA. (Say, 5 years, x% of the cap) and this salary is under the cap.

Players with the tag have a limited no-trade clause in that they must agree before being traded.

If players that have the tag are traded, their contracts also defaults to the maximum values of the CBA, unless the team applies their franchise tag to the player. If it is available, the team HAS to apply the tag on the player they acquire.

This would take care of the 5-Year Maximum contract lenght issue. The players who could hope to have these deals still could.
The PA would never agree to this, you cannot have deflating contracts and essentially the only reason the NFL has franchise tags is what a NTC does in the NHL.

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12-10-2012, 03:29 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
Speak for yourself, I'd rather see 28 games + playoffs than nothing at all.
28 games is ridiculous. Players wouldnt be completely in shape until the second round of the playoffs.

Fortunately the NHL would never play 28 games. 50 is the minimum.

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12-10-2012, 03:30 PM
  #705
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Marty Turco the latest to slap every fan in the face.



https://twitter.com/mturco35/status/278245260528865281
How exactly is that a slap in the face? I've been struggling to follow the overreaction to these pictures. Is the guy supposed to sit in a dark room with tin foil over the windows, stopping slapshots in the half light and doing 1000 ab crunches an hour while waiting for his phone to ring announcing the end of the lockout?

If Fehr and Bettman took a 2 week break in negotiations and posted that picture, sure, get pissed. But I don't see the issue here.

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12-10-2012, 03:31 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
In 5 - 7 years, move the drop dead date back to Nov 15.

cuz you know the NHLPA will force another lockout. (and the usual suspects will all blame Bettman - again)
Yeah, because it's not like he's been the guy in charge for three work stoppages over 17 years as commissioner. And if he was in charge for a 4th it would all just be an awful coincidence. I wish everyone would just stop picking on him.

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12-10-2012, 03:32 PM
  #707
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Well, that's pretty much exactly what I was trying to say when I said it depended on whether you look at it from the perspective of the offers or the perspective of the last CBA - they've definitely come a ways from the owners' first offer. Of course, everyone knew that first offer was far out of the realm of anything the owners expected to actually get.
True, everyone knew the first offer was a sham. The PA hasn't just "gained" on that offer though, they've destroyed every "last, best offer" the NHL has come with since. People assumed they'd settle on that 50%, did anyone really think they'd get all this transition money?

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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
So perhaps the problem is that the players don't look at it that way. Perhaps they're still concentrating on revenge/"winning" based on the last CBA. If they could change that outlook to focusing on this CBA and the compromises they've gotten in their favor, maybe they could get a deal done.
They aren't looking for revenge, they're looking to keep as much money and rights as they can, and doing a masterful job of it.

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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
Sure there is, if they call the supposed bluff too often. They came very close last week, IMO. If they keep it up the season will be lost.
I disagree, I guess we'll see.

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12-10-2012, 03:33 PM
  #708
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
How exactly is that a slap in the face? I've been struggling to follow the overreaction to these pictures. Is the guy supposed to sit in a dark room with tin foil over the windows, stopping slapshots in the half light and doing 1000 ab crunches an hour while waiting for his phone to ring announcing the end of the lockout?

If Fehr and Bettman took a 2 week break in negotiations and posted that picture, sure, get pissed. But I don't see the issue here.
I guess it's because so many players are crying poor, whining about how the league is taking away all their money, how they're losing so much, etc., yet post pictures like this while arena workers and nearby businesses are actually suffering the consequences of the lockout.

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12-10-2012, 03:33 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
How exactly is that a slap in the face? I've been struggling to follow the overreaction to these pictures. Is the guy supposed to sit in a dark room with tin foil over the windows, stopping slapshots in the half light and doing 1000 ab crunches an hour while waiting for his phone to ring announcing the end of the lockout?

If Fehr and Bettman took a 2 week break in negotiations and posted that picture, sure, get pissed. But I don't see the issue here.
They can do whatever they want during the lockout. It's just that we'd like it if they didn't have to show it to everyone over twitter.

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Old
12-10-2012, 03:33 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
The PA would never agree to this, you cannot have deflating contracts and essentially the only reason the NFL has franchise tags is what a NTC does in the NHL.
Then make it so that you can't untag someone and have to live with the contract unless you buy it out, and the buy-out counts against the cap.

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12-10-2012, 03:34 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Anyone that thinks the players would have been better off signing any of the previous offers than holding out is not thinking clearly imo, the players have done much better than almost anyone thought they could... and they still stand to gain more. They aren't gaining on the last CBA, but they are gaining huge on anything the owners offered. There is no way they would have been better off signing any of those earlier offers.
Disagree completely. Many of us on here have asked the pro-PA posters to explain a plausible scenario where the players can come out ahead of where they would have been had they signed in October and nobody has come up with a reasonable scenario yet. Sure, if you look strictly at the contracting issues and "make whole" money, the league's most recent offer may be "better" than the 82 game one in October, but: A) It seems reasonable that anything the league is willing to give up now could also have been given up to save a full 82 game season if the PA had just negotiated off of it, and B) The players have now lost $600 million that they will never get back. Again, even if the NHL had accepted the PA's most recent proposal, the players would still be out a significant amount of money from where they would have been had they accepted the NHL's offer in October. Their position is absolutely defenceless.

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12-10-2012, 03:34 PM
  #712
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
I guess it's because so many players are crying poor, whining about how the league is taking away all their money, how they're losing so much, etc., yet post pictures like this while arena workers and nearby businesses are actually suffering the consequences of the lockout.
A lot of them are looking to lose a lot of money. Losing money sucks, I'd complain about it too. If I had the means to take a vacation during the process I'd take it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Teemu View Post
They can do whatever they want during the lockout. It's just that we'd like it if they didn't have to show it to everyone over twitter.
It's not like anybody is forced to follow them.

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12-10-2012, 03:35 PM
  #713
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
How exactly is that a slap in the face? I've been struggling to follow the overreaction to these pictures. Is the guy supposed to sit in a dark room with tin foil over the windows, stopping slapshots in the half light and doing 1000 ab crunches an hour while waiting for his phone to ring announcing the end of the lockout?

If Fehr and Bettman took a 2 week break in negotiations and posted that picture, sure, get pissed. But I don't see the issue here.
posting a picture of you on vacation while sarcastically referring to it as a "lockout problem" isn't a slap in the face to the fans who make the money he earns to go on vacation possible? All the while claiming just how much not playing is killing them and how badly they want to get back?

give me a break. if you're on vacation, fine. don't post a picture of you on the beach calling it a lockout problem. that IS is a slap in the face.

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12-10-2012, 03:35 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
The NHL started at 43%, the NHLPA has got them to the 50% everyone expected with a massive amount of transition money (that nobody thought they would get) and they've already gained some contract rights back. And they are still negotiating.

Anyone that thinks the players would have been better off signing any of the previous offers than holding out is not thinking clearly imo, the players have done much better than almost anyone thought they could... and they still stand to gain more. They aren't gaining on the last CBA, but they are gaining huge on anything the owners offered. There is no way they would have been better off signing any of those earlier offers.
Why are you talking about the first 43% offer?

You should look at the Oct offer that would have saved the full season. How different is the last offer than that one? Was it worth 550M+?

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12-10-2012, 03:37 PM
  #715
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Originally Posted by maplehawk View Post
posting a picture of you on vacation while sarcastically referring to it as a "lockout problem" isn't a slap in the face to the fans who make the money he earns to go on vacation possible? All the while claiming just how much not playing is killing them and how badly they want to get back?

give me a break. if you're on vacation, fine. don't post a picture of you on the beach calling it a lockout problem. that IS is a slap in the face.
He didn't say #lockoutproblem. You're overreacting.

Don't like it? Don't read it. Don't follow him. If you're so outraged by something so trivial, the solution is really simple.

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12-10-2012, 03:37 PM
  #716
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They can do whatever they want during the lockout. It's just that we'd like it if they didn't have to show it to everyone over twitter.
lol it's really not much simpler than that.

I'm sure a bunch of employees of teams he played for follow him. You know, the same employees who are now not working at all.

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Old
12-10-2012, 03:37 PM
  #717
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Originally Posted by maplehawk View Post
Marty Turco the latest to slap every fan in the face.



https://twitter.com/mturco35/status/278245260528865281
Can't hold it against him for enjoying his retirement! I really don't think he'll play another NHL game again.

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12-10-2012, 03:37 PM
  #718
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Even what the players were asking for in make whole doesn't cover what the players have lost by now (asking for $389 million and have now sacrificed $558 million according to the sportsnet clock).
You can't just look at the money, contract rights are a big issue. When it's signed we can look at what the NHL offered at any point and compare it to what the players ended up with and see if it was worth waiting, until then it can't even be argued.

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12-10-2012, 03:38 PM
  #719
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
They aren't looking for revenge, they're looking to keep as much money and rights as they can, and doing a masterful job of it.
This would be true... if we were in October. Once games were missed things changed.

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12-10-2012, 03:39 PM
  #720
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Originally Posted by maplehawk View Post
Marty Turco the latest to slap every fan in the face.



https://twitter.com/mturco35/status/278245260528865281
Sigh...

These guys are really something..


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 12-10-2012 at 03:40 PM. Reason: Nope. Against site rules.
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12-10-2012, 03:40 PM
  #721
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
How exactly is that a slap in the face? I've been struggling to follow the overreaction to these pictures. Is the guy supposed to sit in a dark room with tin foil over the windows, stopping slapshots in the half light and doing 1000 ab crunches an hour while waiting for his phone to ring announcing the end of the lockout?

If Fehr and Bettman took a 2 week break in negotiations and posted that picture, sure, get pissed. But I don't see the issue here.
its a slap in the face bc its "oh im locked out and wont agree to such terms bc im treated like cattle and get nooone of my money!" and theyre on vacation at some beach, yet the guy who makes 12 an hr to sell merch 4 nights a week to feed his family is struggling just to put food on the table. its disgusting.

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12-10-2012, 03:40 PM
  #722
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You can't just look at the money, contract rights are a big issue. When it's signed we can look at what the NHL offered at any point and compare it to what the players ended up with and see if it was worth waiting, until then it can't even be argued.
I am so sick of seeing people argue this. How are contract rights such a big issue? The vast majority of players will never be affected by the new contract issues, and yet it is these same guys who are paying the steepest price for this lockout.

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12-10-2012, 03:41 PM
  #723
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
He didn't say #lockoutproblem. You're overreacting.

Don't like it? Don't read it. Don't follow him. If you're so outraged by something so trivial, the solution is really simple.
You're unaware of how twitter works aren't you.

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Old
12-10-2012, 03:41 PM
  #724
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
True, everyone knew the first offer was a sham. The PA hasn't just "gained" on that offer though, they've destroyed every "last, best offer" the NHL has come with since. People assumed they'd settle on that 50%, did anyone really think they'd get all this transition money?
Anyone? I can't answer that. I don't know what the league's ideas were as to where they'd compromise in order to get to where they really wanted to be. None of us do. They may have planned it all along. And, we have yet to see if all that transition money is still there for the PA's taking.

As for having "destroyed" the NHL's offers, well, we disagree on that term, as well.

Quote:
They aren't looking for revenge, they're looking to keep as much money and rights as they can, and doing a masterful job of it.
IMO their primary concern is to "win" and win big (revenge) and have said as much when they continually point out that they "lost" the last CBA. Hiring Fehr was the first salvo. And, sure, they want to keep as much money and rights as they can, but losing the amount of money they're losing compared to what they're gaining is hardly "masterful." But that's just my opinion.

Quote:
I disagree, I guess we'll see.
Yep, we sure do. The fact that the league canceled a season before is pretty strong indication to me that they're willing to call it a day if the union "calls their bluff" one time too many.

That said, I hope there's no need for it. My dream is that both sides get together and work out a deal that's fair for both and will be what's best for the health of the league. A pipe dream, perhaps, but my dream nonetheless.

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12-10-2012, 03:42 PM
  #725
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Why are you talking about the first 43% offer?
Because that's where negotiations started. The NHL tried to make an initial "offer" that made their real position the middle ground (50%). Most people thought that is exactly where they would end up but they've done much better than that already.

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