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NHL Lockout XXV: New car caviar four star daydream, think I'll buy me a hockey team

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Old
12-10-2012, 05:32 PM
  #801
Erik Estrada
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Whether the NHL's last offer should or shouldn't be signed, I wonder if any poster (anti-PA or pro-PA) believes this time it's finally a real ultimatum from the NHL and those things will never be back on the table?

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12-10-2012, 05:32 PM
  #802
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tra La La View Post
I don't think make whole will be coming back. I think what support Bettman had for continuing to offer it is gone. Even needing a minority? I doubt Bettman could get enough owner votes to pass a CBA with make whole.
I don't buy it. Bettman said the same thing when they put 211 make whole on the table. " it's as far as we can go.. Owners are mad"

Blah blah. There will be hockey and make whole will be apart of it.

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12-10-2012, 05:32 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
That's a matter of interpretation. Everything that the PA is now agreeing to or moving closer it is everything that came from that 50/50 offer back in October. Owners told them to call them if they wanted to talk more about the make whole. Everything the league has done so far, they've made the move that they expected the PA to make. I guess if you think being schooled is wasting your own time and money sitting on your hands while the other side moves closer to you with considerations that they most likely expected to make, then I guess the league is being schooled. I guess the PA can consider it a small victory that they made the league increase their own make whole offer - all the while ignoring that the reason the league has done so is because it's within the boundaries of what they'd do to get the season back on.

However, I don't consider the PA to be doing the schooling when they're now negotiating elements that were likely there to be had back in October and using an 82 game schedules as leverage to squeeze it out of the owners. Many of here predicted that the make whole would be increased, many of us here predicted that UFA, arbitration, ELC would all be left alone. Many of us here predicted that a linked 50/50 and contract lengths along with variation would be the sticking points and so far, we've been correct. An 82 game schedule wasn't to the benefit of the players, it was to the benefit of the owners and the PA missed their opportunity to negotiate everything they had gotten last week along with getting a full season's worth of pay.
Yeah, I don't think the owners were giving anything to the PA unless they fought for it tooth and nail. I don't really understand peopel saying that the NHL has always been prepared to act reasonably. There is no evidence that they were prepared to be reasonable until games started to be cancelled. Neither side acted reasonably. Daly is still saying that the NHL is prepared to die over 5 year contracts with a 5% variance.

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12-10-2012, 05:32 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
You're assuming that we are going to lose a season. I think it's pretty obvious from the owners side that they have been bluffing. We were going to see a lockout last until the last minute because they wanted to get all they could. 100% chance of hockey this season.
How can there be a 100% chance of hockey while there is presently a lockout?

Even to this date (forget about losing the entire season), the players have suffered more losses than they will be able to recoup. I honestly don't feel the owners are bluffing. IMO, they would rather lose a season than operate under another unfavorable agreement.

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12-10-2012, 05:33 PM
  #805
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generally when things get put on the table they stay there. remember goodenow's stupid 24% roll-back he proposed in december? yeah, that was still included when they signed the CBA later that summer

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12-10-2012, 05:33 PM
  #806
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and the beat goes on...


Ben Kuzma ‏@benkuzma
Manny Malhotra on splitting differences to forge CBA deal: "It wouldn't in fact be splitting it. It would be us conceding more to them."
Really sick of this attitude from the players. The last CBA is done, get over it.

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12-10-2012, 05:34 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I don't even know if you're serious about this? I've read over and over again how the PA will never make back the money they've been losing by not signing "the last, best offer".
But that's not what you said. You said, "Again, anyone thinking that the players should have just signed that first offer isn't looking at this clearly." That's what I responded to when I said "And, as far as I can recall, I've never heard a single person say the players should have signed that first offer."

If "that first offer" actually meant "last, best offer," I missed it completely.

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12-10-2012, 05:34 PM
  #808
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
How can there be a 100% chance of hockey while there is presently a lockout?

Even to this date (forget about losing the entire season), the players have suffered more losses than they will be able to recoup. I honestly don't feel the owners are bluffing. IMO, they would rather lose a season than operate under another unfavorable agreement.
They already have a favourable offer from the NHLPA on the table. IF they are prepared to lose a season over that then they are letting their emotions get in the way of good business sense.

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12-10-2012, 05:34 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by ES View Post
Well, Richards is seeing his highest salary disappearing.
Code:
2008-09 $5,400,000 $5,400,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2009-10 $5,600,000 $5,600,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2010-11 $6,400,000 $6,400,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2011-12 $6,600,000 $6,600,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2012-13 $8,400,000 $8,400,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2013-14 $7,600,000 $7,600,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2014-15 $7,000,000 $7,000,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2015-16 $6,000,000 $6,000,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2016-17 $5,500,000 $5,500,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2017-18 $4,500,000 $4,500,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2018-19 $3,000,000 $3,000,000 $0  $5,750,000 
2019-20 $3,000,000 $3,000,000 $0  $5,750,000
Looks like the Flyers got him twice. First, they trade him after signing that contract. Then, they put his highest salary in the year the CBA expired.

Not a very good agent. Come on whoever his agent is, you're dealing with the NHL and possible lockouts.

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12-10-2012, 05:36 PM
  #810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
However, I don't consider the PA to be doing the schooling when they're now negotiating elements that were likely there to be had back in October and using an 82 game schedules as leverage to squeeze it out of the owners. Many of here predicted that the make whole would be increased, many of us here predicted that UFA, arbitration, ELC would all be left alone. Many of us here predicted that a linked 50/50 and contract lengths along with variation would be the sticking points and so far, we've been correct. An 82 game schedule wasn't to the benefit of the players, it was to the benefit of the owners and the PA missed their opportunity to negotiate everything they had gotten last week along with getting a full season's worth of pay.
What about all the BS about taking things off the table? They've said every offer after that 82 game one was going to get worse...

They didn't leave room for negotiation. Last, best offer. Take it or leave it, the offers are only getting worse

This BS about dying on the 5 year limit hill is bs too, the NHL has overplayed their hand and are getting called on all this stuff.

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12-10-2012, 05:36 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
They already have a favourable offer from the NHLPA on the table. IF they are prepared to lose a season over that then they are letting their emotions get in the way of good business sense.
same could be said about the players...even MORE about the players...

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12-10-2012, 05:36 PM
  #812
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So here are the differences between the two.

PA: 8 year contract limits throughout
NHL: 7 year limits for own RFA or UFA, 5 year to sign another teams UFA.(NBA model, could do sign and trades etc.)

PA: 300 m make whole
NHL 300 m make whole(based on if they accept contracts and such)

PA: one year can be no less than 25% of highest year(this does not fix front loaded contracts) so essentially 10m, 10m, 10m, 5m, 5m, 2.5m is possible.
NHL: 5% variance
^^ This is actually a big difference between the sides.

Looking at this,minus variance, what is the PA making a big fuss about? 7 year limits isn't good enough for most? what, 20 players have more than 7 year contracts?

Yes, maybe the NHL should meet in the middle, but if they dont want to move, why doesnt the PA just accept what they want? it's really not much farther for them to do and I doubt it would affect many players(85-90% would be unaffected by this deal really).

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12-10-2012, 05:37 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
But that's not what you said. You said, "Again, anyone thinking that the players should have just signed that first offer isn't looking at this clearly." That's what I responded to when I said "And, as far as I can recall, I've never heard a single person say the players should have signed that first offer."

If "that first offer" actually meant "last, best offer," I missed it completely.
It doesn't matter which offer you refer to, they're going to do substantially better than any of them. When I said that first offer, I meant the first real offer, in October.

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12-10-2012, 05:37 PM
  #814
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same could be said about the players...even MORE about the players...
Yes. That is why there will be a season. Both sides will probably behave rationally in the end. I'm not sure that even Bettman and Fehr can screw this one up.

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12-10-2012, 05:37 PM
  #815
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what was kovalchuk set to make this year? dodged a bullet NJ

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12-10-2012, 05:39 PM
  #816
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
Yeah, I don't think the owners were giving anything to the PA unless they fought for it tooth and nail. I don't really understand peopel saying that the NHL has always been prepared to act reasonably. There is no evidence that they were prepared to be reasonable until games started to be cancelled. Neither side acted reasonably. Daly is still saying that the NHL is prepared to die over 5 year contracts with a 5% variance.
There is no evidence to prove your theory either. That's why it's called a theory. None of us know if there would be hockey right now if the players had taken a different strategy. I'm of the mind that the PA could've gotten everything they've gotten thus far at a much earlier time frame. You're free to disagree but it doesn't change my opinion.

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12-10-2012, 05:39 PM
  #817
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
They already have a favourable offer from the NHLPA on the table. IF they are prepared to lose a season over that then they are letting their emotions get in the way of good business sense.
It's not good enough in their eyes.

For one the PA's offer on contract variance does not fix the contract front loading, it's practically the same as the last cba's variance rules.(I.e 10m, 10m, 10m, 10m, 5m, 5m, 2.5m is possible with the PA's offer.)

secondly, the idea that 7 year limits for own RFA/UFA and 5 years for another teams UFA is actually great for parity as it causes sign and trades like in basketball. (not much, but at least you could come away with a 2nd rounder for letting parise walk for example.) I dont know why the PA doesnt accept this model, 8 years is 1 year more than 7.

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12-10-2012, 05:40 PM
  #818
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The last cba is so bad for the NHL the players don't realize it. They are too immature to understand it's not a healthy league. Man this is annoying

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12-10-2012, 05:40 PM
  #819
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They already have a favourable offer from the NHLPA on the table. IF they are prepared to lose a season over that then they are letting their emotions get in the way of good business sense.
Can't it be said that the PA already has a favorable offer from the league on the table, as well?

Clearly, neither side believes that to be the case.

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12-10-2012, 05:40 PM
  #820
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Yes. That is why there will be a season. Both sides will probably behave rationally in the end. I'm not sure that even Bettman and Fehr can screw this one up.
Yeah well it's really easy to be objective when you are not face first into the argument. Humans being humans. You can see that even the most successful people can let emotion getting in the way of thinking business.

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12-10-2012, 05:41 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
There is no evidence to prove your theory either. That's why it's called a theory. None of us know if there would be hockey right now if the players had taken a different strategy. I'm of the mind that the PA could've gotten everything they've gotten thus far at a much earlier time frame. You're free to disagree but it doesn't change my opinion.
Fair enough. I'm of the opinion that the NHL is exactly where they planned to be.

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12-10-2012, 05:43 PM
  #822
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what was kovalchuk set to make this year? dodged a bullet NJ
$11m

http://capgeek.com/player/339

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12-10-2012, 05:43 PM
  #823
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It's not good enough in their eyes.
It's never good enough, they want as much as they can get.

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12-10-2012, 05:44 PM
  #824
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So here are the differences between the two.

PA: 8 year contract limits throughout
NHL: 7 year limits for own RFA or UFA, 5 year to sign another teams UFA.(NBA model, could do sign and trades etc.)

PA: 300 m make whole
NHL 300 m make whole(based on if they accept contracts and such)

PA: one year can be no less than 25% of highest year(this does not fix front loaded contracts) so essentially 10m, 10m, 10m, 5m, 5m, 2.5m is possible.
NHL: 5% variance
^^ This is actually a big difference between the sides.

Looking at this,minus variance, what is the PA making a big fuss about? 7 year limits isn't good enough for most? what, 20 players have more than 7 year contracts?

Yes, maybe the NHL should meet in the middle, but if they dont want to move, why doesnt the PA just accept what they want? it's really not much farther for them to do and I doubt it would affect many players(85-90% would be unaffected by this deal really).
I think the CBA term and the Variance are the big thing, but the NHLPA keeps asking for more and more with every NHL offer.

Essentially, I think it boils down to trust or lack thereof. The players do not trust Gary Bettman. They do not like Gary Bettman. They feel like Bettman is trying to screw them.

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12-10-2012, 05:44 PM
  #825
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Yeah well it's really easy to be objective when you are not face first into the argument. Humans being humans. You can see that even the most successful people can let emotion getting in the way of thinking business.
I just come at it from the point of view that most people won't throw away millions of dollars to make a point or as a matter of principle. Of course that's just my opinion.

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