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Old
12-10-2012, 05:02 PM
  #626
Spazmatic Dan
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Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
If Kulemin is a huge upgrade on Bozak, then theres no point in discussing Boz at all, as he'd have no value to the Canucks. These 2 teams have vastly different standards. As Y2K is trying to point out, Kul isnt much better than Raymond, and Raymond barely has a place on the team as is.
Bozak and Kulemin play two different positions. Unless you're running Raymond as center, its a different conversation, no?

Kulemin has more value to the Leafs than Raymond. Much more, IMO. And that's where you will see the disjoint in perceived value.

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12-10-2012, 05:06 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Okay.

Forgive me if I'm jumping in again late, but then why are they listed as points of discussion?

P.S. IS Jonas Hiller available? Didn't think he would be. If so, let the discussions commence!


...Gardiner for Schneider?
If we're trading Schneider, I'm not sure that Gardiner would the piece for us to target, given we already have plenty of depth at LD. Maybe a 3-way could be worked out with Gardiner, Schneider, and player x who's a young RW with similar upside.

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12-10-2012, 05:17 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Okay.

Forgive me if I'm jumping in again late, but then why are they listed as points of discussion?

P.S. IS Jonas Hiller available? Didn't think he would be. If so, let the discussions commence!


...Gardiner for Schneider?
Y2K has unrealistic expectations, or rather, extremely high ones.

I'd probably want a little more added to Gardiner and as van mentioned, he would need to be flipped for a winger. Although, I wouldn't be adverse to moving Edler in that scenario to net a better return.

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12-10-2012, 05:17 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
He scored SEVEN goals last year.

Raymond scored 10 in 55 games.

Its a wash at best.
i would rather keep the player who showed the fortitude to come back from a career ending injury to put up better numbers in less games played, for you its a wash for me not so much.

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12-10-2012, 05:18 PM
  #630
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2 of Kulemin/Biggs/Frattin/Kadri + top 10 protected 2013 1st for Luongo + Raymond/3rd in 2013

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12-10-2012, 05:33 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Y2K has unrealistic expectations, or rather, extremely high ones.

I'd probably want a little more added to Gardiner and as van mentioned, he would need to be flipped for a winger. Although, I wouldn't be adverse to moving Edler in that scenario to net a better return.
I wouldn't say my expectations are unrealistic or extremely high. Rather, my expectations are fair value for a top 5 goalie.

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12-10-2012, 05:39 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I wouldn't say my expectations are unrealistic or extremely high. Rather, my expectations are fair value for a top 5 goalie.
1) Luongo was not a top 5 goalie last year.

2) Luongo's contract hurts his trade value.

3) The Canucks cannot keep both goalies in the long term.

Please adjust your expectations accordingly.

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Old
12-10-2012, 05:42 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I wouldn't say my expectations are unrealistic or extremely high. Rather, my expectations are fair value for a top 5 goalie.
The value for a top-5 goalie can vary wildly. Quick, for example, has far more value than Thomas.

Factors such as age and contract do have an effect, but of course we still have every right to ask for a return that makes us a better team.

Imo that means one of Lupul/Kulemin would need to be involved. Yes Kulemin's value is low, but he still adds physicality and has a good chance at rebounding into a 20ish goal scorer.

I also think that given that Gillis is no longer able to ask for the 2012 1st, there will be no backing off the 2013 1st, if a pick is to be included.(i.e., not one from 2014)

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Old
12-10-2012, 05:44 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by blankall View Post
1) Luongo was not a top 5 goalie last year.

2) Luongo's contract hurts his trade value.

3) The Canucks cannot keep both goalies in the long term.

Please adjust your expectations accordingly.
Lu was the best player on the canucks last year.

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12-10-2012, 05:45 PM
  #635
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In all fairness I think everyone has agreed on the Bozak + Kadri + + framework.
(although I would be willing to swap in Connolly for Bozak if it meant a bit of an uograde on the +'s)

Personally I would want to try for Frattin + Finn, but Leafs fans were divided on it.

I dont have any interest in Colborne (he would be behind Kadri and Schroeder fighting for 1 roster spot. Also leaves Toronto with no youn center prospects.
I dont think thats a good idea, i would bozak and kadri and maybe add something small. I don't see his contract as a great thing and also don't see other teams willing to pay that package. So i repectfully decline the ++

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12-10-2012, 05:45 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
From this Leaf fan's perspective:

Options 1 and 2 are no gos.

Options 3 and 4 are very good discussion points. #3 I think needs more salary transferred (barring an amnesty buyout or a waiver wire). #4 I would do. It would hurt to lose Frattin and Finn but worth it for Luongo.
In option 3 why do you need more salary going? Who are you signing to use this extra space? Have you checked capgeek where you currently are by acquiring Luongo and trading Bozak? I don't think you have done your research.

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12-10-2012, 06:02 PM
  #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
1) Luongo was not a top 5 goalie last year.

2) Luongo's contract hurts his trade value.

3) The Canucks cannot keep both goalies in the long term.

Please adjust your expectations accordingly.
1- Tim Thomas was not a top 5 goalie in 09-10, yet played godly in 10-11. Luongo has the tools to play like a top 5 and has, but lately he has been a 6-10 goalie

2- Luongo has a cap hit of 5.33, there are atleast 7 goalies with a higher cap hit (paid accordingly for a 6-10 goaltender whos deal will only look better when lesser goalies get higher cap hit contracts. Also once the salary paid is less than the cap hit he will be quite adored by small market teams needing a mentor or stop gap.

3- the canucks would not have offered a low term contract to schneider if they didnt think they could keep both for the short term aka 2 years. Which is also the time inlous contract where be can submit a list of teams he would accept a trade to. Lack will have time to develop and in a year or so management will have to choose to trade lou and re-sign schneider, or keep lou to mentor Lackand trade scneider.

Please let facts adjust your opinion accordingly

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:08 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
What holes do they fill?

How would Kadri be our top prospect? I wouldn't even have him in our top 5 as he would be behind Jensen, Kassian, Tanev, Lack and Schroeder.
Kadri is better than them all at the moment.

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:10 PM
  #639
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Kadri is better than them all at the moment.
Care to state why you think that?

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:14 PM
  #640
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Care to state why you think that?
Proof is in the pudding.

Just check out all their stats.

That's all we can go on since there is no NHL season.

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:25 PM
  #641
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Kadri is better than them all at the moment.
Much as you and I disagree. For once, this isn't the case. I'd argue Jensen is better if only because of how he is tearing up a men's league at nineteen. The rest are frankly a toss up at best. Perhaps, I'll be wrong however, I largely blame Kadri's struggles at the NHL level on Wilson's lack of strategy and poor line usage. He played pretty well in his last call up before he sent back for cap reasons if I recall.

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:34 PM
  #642
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Proof is in the pudding.

Just check out all their stats.

That's all we can go on since there is no NHL season.
There is more to the story then just looking at their stats.

There was actually a huge conversation about our farm team & the fact that the Wolves are a low scoring team. I personally believe the system that the Wolves are playing & the lack of high end defensive prospects translates into lower point production. From reports it sounds like the PP set up is a mess as well, one of the worst in the AHL.

Either way I won't pretend to "know" who is the best by just looking at stats. All I can say is Tanev has been amazing since signing here, heck the kid stepped right into the middle of the SCF & didn't look out of place.

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:35 PM
  #643
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Of course you would accept that, because there's nothing good coming Vancouver's way.

If the package doesn't include Lupul, Grabovski, or Gardiner, or Reilly, then I don't have any interest. We also need a 1st round pick involved.
Keep on dreamin bud. Last time I was in this thread both sides were speaking the same language. What happened? Since when did Luongo's value shoot through the roof?

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12-10-2012, 06:36 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Proof is in the pudding.

Just check out all their stats.

That's all we can go on since there is no NHL season.
Uhh... that's not all you can go on. Believe it or not there's more to evaluating prospects than stats.

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12-10-2012, 06:41 PM
  #645
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Originally Posted by sunnyvale420 View Post
1- Tim Thomas was not a top 5 goalie in 09-10, yet played godly in 10-11. Luongo has the tools to play like a top 5 and has, but lately he has been a 6-10 goalie

2- Luongo has a cap hit of 5.33, there are atleast 7 goalies with a higher cap hit (paid accordingly for a 6-10 goaltender whos deal will only look better when lesser goalies get higher cap hit contracts. Also once the salary paid is less than the cap hit he will be quite adored by small market teams needing a mentor or stop gap.

3- the canucks would not have offered a low term contract to schneider if they didnt think they could keep both for the short term aka 2 years. Which is also the time inlous contract where be can submit a list of teams he would accept a trade to. Lack will have time to develop and in a year or so management will have to choose to trade lou and re-sign schneider, or keep lou to mentor Lackand trade scneider.

Please let facts adjust your opinion accordingly
An example of one goalie recovering from a bad season is irrelevant to this discussion. There are many more examples of goalies having bad seasons and then staying bad or getting worse.

Luongo is not a mentor or stop gap with a contract of that length. He's a minimum 6 year commitment.

Schneider was given a 3 year contract. Which is market value for a goalie of his experience. Having a minimum of 4 million in cap hit on the bench on any given night is not good cap management. If the cap goes down, as many expect it will, the Canucks will have to move someone or be unable to improve holes in their team.

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Old
12-10-2012, 06:43 PM
  #646
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An example of one goalie recovering from a bad season is irrelevant to this discussion. There are many more examples of goalies having bad seasons and then staying bad or getting worse.

Luongo is not a mentor or stop gap with a contract of that length. He's a minimum 6 year commitment.

Schneider was given a 3 year contract. Which is market value for a goalie of his experience. Having a minimum of 4 million in cap hit on the bench on any given night is not good cap management. If the cap goes down, as many expect it will, the Canucks will have to move someone or be unable to improve holes in their team.
Roberto Luongo has never had a bad season in his life, that is why he isnt a risk. Every other goalie you could mention does not fit that description.

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Old
12-10-2012, 07:20 PM
  #647
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What other options are out there?
well lets see. If the season gets cancelled and it doesn't look great then backstrom thomas simth and howard will be UFA when we start again so that is 4 that we know of.

If you honestly think Toronto is screwed if we don't get Lou you will be very disappointed.

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12-10-2012, 07:24 PM
  #648
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Didn't Luongo ask for a trade when the season was over? And with that contract being so long I don't see how Gillis is in a position to have any leverage.

All this "do you want Luongo or not" talk is pure garbage. Yeah, I'd love to have Luongo on Toronto, just as much as you guys would/need to trade him. Luongo requested a trade. The last couple of stars I know that requested trades didn't go down to well. Heatley, Pronger come to mind.

And just so we are clear. Kulemin is not getting traded. And whoever compares him to Higgins and/or Raymond is crazy. Kulemin could play on the first line on 90% of the teams in the NHL. Not because of his skill, but because he is such a smart, and complete player. Last year was a blessing in disguise. Terrible stats = below market value contract.

There is absolutely no way a first is being mentioned in this trade. Get over it.

Kadri/Bozak speculates as the center piece. Maybe a defensive prospect also (Not Gardiner, Reilly), and a 2nd round pick.

I know this will sound like a terrible offer to most, if not all, Canuck fans on here. But with Luongo's long term contract, and him requesting a trade, and no other team looking for a goalie....Gillis has his hands tied

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12-10-2012, 07:27 PM
  #649
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And I think keeping Luongo after he asked to be traded would be terrible morale for both goalies and will probably leak out to everyone in the dressing room. Not only that, but over 9M committed to two goalies isn't smart....cap wise.

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12-10-2012, 07:29 PM
  #650
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Didn't Luongo ask for a trade when the season was over? And with that contract being so long I don't see how Gillis is in a position to have any leverage.

All this "do you want Luongo or not" talk is pure garbage. Yeah, I'd love to have Luongo on Toronto, just as much as you guys would/need to trade him. Luongo requested a trade. The last couple of stars I know that requested trades didn't go down to well. Heatley, Pronger come to mind.

And just so we are clear. Kulemin is not getting traded. And whoever compares him to Higgins and/or Raymond is crazy. Kulemin could play on the first line on 90% of the teams in the NHL. Not because of his skill, but because he is such a smart, and complete player. Last year was a blessing in disguise. Terrible stats = below market value contract.

There is absolutely no way a first is being mentioned in this trade. Get over it.

Kadri/Bozak speculates as the center piece. Maybe a defensive prospect also (Not Gardiner, Reilly), and a 2nd round pick.

I know this will sound like a terrible offer to most, if not all, Canuck fans on here. But with Luongo's long term contract, and him requesting a trade, and no other team looking for a goalie....Gillis has his hands tied
Kulemin is a 1st liner?!?!? im sorry but Toronto fans havent seen talent in a decade and dont seem to be able to judge it. Higgins is a more valuable piece to a contending team than Kuli. Kuli isnt likey a 2nd liner on a contender, let alone 1st.

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